What budget? Why worry? How do people do it?

[Beezle2]

Therein lies the question. What about those of us who have not made bad money decisions? Do we get to pass judgement?

I'm pretty sure a herd of rabid buffalo wouldn't slow down people who like to judge others. It's like second nature for some. They do it standing in line at McDonalds, posting on message boards etc, etc. I like to imagine it's the only exercise they get because it's cheap entertainment.

Do we get to pass judgement indeed.

 

[Beezle2]

As for not knowing who the poor are, I disagree. Some people masquerade as middle-class (through debt, family help, or whatever), but tell-tale signs give it away. The co-worker who counts the minutes 'til payday, or who gets calls from collectors on the phone. The family member who constantly wants to borrow money.[/QUOTE]

So are you saying that you look for these tell-tale signs? Or that people should look for them? Because I'm finding out it really matters a lot to some folks. Maybe some people "masquerade" as middle class just to try and avoid being judged by rampaging herds of rabid water buffalo disguised as their neighbors and coworkers?

Good thing we can spot those posers if we try (or care to try)

 

[mjbaby]

As for not knowing who the poor are, I disagree. Some people masquerade as middle-class (through debt, family help, or whatever), but tell-tale signs give it away. The co-worker who counts the minutes 'til payday, or who gets calls from collectors on the phone. The family member who constantly wants to borrow money.

That seems to me to be the difference between "poor" and "broke", not necessarily markers of being truly poor at all.

 

[eliza61]

Therein lies the question. What about those of us who have not made bad money decisions? Do we get to pass judgement?

Oh 100%. I would never try and I hope that I have not discounted anyone's frustration at current events. I totally can understand them.

I certainly cannot lay any claim on financial perfection. I've gone on expensive vacations courtesy of my mastercard, would I do it now? no but at the time, I thought it was a pretty good idea. and I've always said one of my big regrets is that when I was younger I was not a big saver so now that I'm closer to retirement I'm more agressive. Was I stupid to not save more? who knows. I started working during a time when people stayed with their companies for life and got a pension at the end. I remember my relatives telling me how lucky I was to get in with a "big company" with good benefits. 401K's were'nt heard off. Now with the information I have, sure I wish I had started saving in my 20's but hindsight is 20/20

But I also realize that I've been blessed. My dh and I are in our mid and late mid life and outside of some orthoscopic knee surgery and minor complications during pregnancy, we've had zero health issues. I have a friend who's son suffered from childhood leukema and even with health insurance it wiped them out. So can I judge them if they need food assistance?

 

[mrodgers]

From the article....

We bought a new car this past year so our son could earn money for college delivering pizzas.

People will read in what they want to read in. How many posts commented about the article stating the new car was purchased for the son to drive to deliver pizzas?

If I went out and purchased a 2012 Honda Civic and gave it to my son to use to deliver pizza, the article statement would be true.

If I had a 1994 Honda Civic with 250,000 miles on it, and purchased a new car for myself so I could give my son the Honda to deliver pizzas, the article statement would also be true.

The amounts listed for utilities, cable/internet, insurance, car payment, and gas all sound pretty reasonable. From my experience, the groceries are pretty dead on as well. You all have seen me post that we spend about $250/week in groceries. We don't have multiple stores to hunt for sales, or even stores that have sales cheaper than Walmart prices, nor do we have coupons available without it being another full time job (hours netted us savings of $2-3, which is accomplished by working 10 minutes over once a week....)

------------------------

My income is pretty much at the median. 10 years ago, we purchased a (reasonable cost) house. It costs about $200/month to heat in the winter. Fast forward 10 years and it suddenly cost $800 to heat. That's an increase of 400%. My income increase is about 10% for those 10 years.

Gas was about $1.30/gallon when I bought my house. It is now over $4 some places and very near $4 everywhere else. That is a 300% increase. Again, income increase was about 10%.

We spent about $300/month in groceries back then. Today, as I said, we spend about $1000. A 330% increase. Income increased by 10%.

My electric bill was maybe $50/month. Today, $125. 250% increase. Income 10% increase.

A new car cost about $200-250/month. A good used car, about $5000, or $100 if you financed. A crappy junk car that could be driven a few years before it fell apart for $500. Today, $350/month barely gets you in a new car, a good used car is barely less than a new car, and the junk car to drive a few years before it falls apart is about $2000. Call that 150% increase for new and good used car and 400% for a piece of crap. Again, 10% income increase.

All while median income rises about 10%, the people running the companies that have increased the purchase cost of items have increased nearly just as substantially as the products their companies are producing along with the record breaking profits of these companies.


You have 1000 people making $1 and 10 people making $10 running companies selling a product to the 1000 people When the income of those people increase by 10% and through the greed of the companies, the product purchase price increases by 400%, a majority of the 1000 people no longer purchase the product. The 10 people whom has increased their income along with the product cost are now making $40 and are the only ones who can purchase the product. They are making less product because they are selling less product not to others but mostly to themselves and they no longer need many of the 1000 people to work for them to make the products. A good chunk of the 1000 people are now out of a job, therefore buy even less of the products. That is where we are today.


10 years ago, a regular job was $10/hour, a good job was $20/hour, and a really good job was $30/hour. Fast forward, those same jobs are paying the same wages, but the cost of everything is increased 200-400%. That makes the regular job now a really crappy job, the good job a not quite as crappy job, and the really good job just something to get by on.

 

[Muushka]

Oh 100%. I would never try and I hope that I have not discounted anyone's frustration at current events. I totally can understand them.

I certainly cannot lay any claim on financial perfection. I've gone on expensive vacations courtesy of my mastercard, would I do it now? no but at the time, I thought it was a pretty good idea. and I've always said one of my big regrets is that when I was younger I was not a big saver so now that I'm closer to retirement I'm more agressive. Was I stupid to not save more? who knows. I started working during a time when people stayed with their companies for life and got a pension at the end. I remember my relatives telling me how lucky I was to get in with a "big company" with good benefits. 401K's were'nt heard off. Now with the information I have, sure I wish I had started saving in my 20's but hindsight is 20/20

But I also realize that I've been blessed. My dh and I are in our mid and late mid life and outside of some orthoscopic knee surgery and minor complications during pregnancy, we've had zero health issues. I have a friend who's son suffered from childhood leukema and even with health insurance it wiped them out. So can I judge them if they need food assistance?

Thanks, E.

I had a friend who had 3 daughters. Her ex-husband gave her no support whatsoever.
I did not judge her.
I helped (along with many others) to support her and her children so that they would not need to go to the food bank or receive welfare.
There have been plenty of people that I have met who, due to circumstances beyond their control, have met hard times.
I did not judge them either, but did what I personally could to help.

Wouldn't it be nice if the people in need could receive help from friends rather than the government?

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Thanks, E.

I had a friend who had 3 daughters. Her ex-husband gave her no support whatsoever.
I did not judge her.
I helped (along with many others) to support her and her children so that they would not need to go to the food bank or receive welfare.
There have been plenty of people that I have met who, due to circumstances beyond their control, have met hard times.
I did not judge them either, but did what I personally could to help.

Wouldn't it be nice if the people in need could receive help from friends rather than the government?

My honest answer to that would be...no. I think it puts people in a very uncomfortable situation to have to ask their friends for help in these situations. I think it makes you feel like a child, who is forever in the position of owing these friends, and vulnerable to having every penny you spend scrutinized ("you bought x brand of cereal? You should have bought z brand, it is 3 cents cheaper per box!").

And it means that only those people lucky enough to have friends with money get help. What about those who are socially awkward or for other reasons have few or no friends? Is it just too bad for them?

Of course the bigger issue is that many people who are poor or struggling financially have friends who are also poor. In fact, in many poor communities the people do help each other as much as they can, but the help is very limited.

I value government programs that support people in difficult situations. For me, it's a way of helping (through my tax dollars) people who I don't even know who need help.

Teresa

 

[crisi]

My honest answer to that would be...no. I think it puts people in a very uncomfortable situation to have to ask their friends for help in these situations. I think it makes you feel like a child, who is forever in the position of owing these friends, and vulnerable to having every penny you spend scrutinized ("you bought x brand of cereal? You should have bought z brand, it is 3 cents cheaper per box!").

And it means that only those people lucky enough to have friends with money get help. What about those who are socially awkward or for other reasons have few or no friends? Is it just too bad for them?

Of course the bigger issue is that many people who are poor or struggling financially have friends who are also poor. In fact, in many poor communities the people do help each other as much as they can, but the help is very limited.

I value government programs that support people in difficult situations. For me, it's a way of helping (through my tax dollars) people who I don't even know who need help.

Teresa

Honestly, it is HORRIBLE. We've been helping my brother in law for years. Right now for good reason, he has terminal cancer. He gets Social Security disability now, but the payments aren't really enough to make him comfortable through his final time (months? years? I sort of doubt more than two years)

I own a house I don't want to own so he can live there. My husband has to babysit the house...I can't because my brother in law treats every visit from me as a judgmental invasion of his privacy.

Some months, despite us having a really good income, money gets tight for us....ok, liquid cash gets tight for us. And if my brother in law decides to check something off his bucket list - a trip to see a friend before he dies - I have guilt, frustration, annoyance.

It wasn't at all good when he was healthy - it was FAR worse and I really had to temper myself - because if it came down to us or his brother, I wasn't sure who my husband would choose. My husband has never seen his brother as irresponsible - just a victim of bad luck. So I bit my tongue when I saw $3000 get spent on a guitar, when we'd just given him money for rent a few months before. And when he went to Mexico with his girlfriend when he still owed us money to cover moving expenses.

And it isn't just him...we help my mother in law as well. My parents are retired and fairly comfortable, but if we go to dinner with them, we pick up the check. We pick up the check going out with friends, too. I don't mind the picking up of checks, that's my treat anyway. Although sometimes the expectation that we've set up "crisi and DH will pick up the check, they always do" grates, even when everyone is grateful. But I'll admit its hard to give my mother in law $1000 to help out with her bills and groceries - then watch her spend $300 to rent studio space for her art, plus the art expenses. I just keep reminding myself "its good for my marriage......"

Another thing is that when you give a helping hand, you'll discover that your family is far more extensive than you thought, and you have way more friends than ever call you for happy hour. And I have no problem helping friends, I do have an issue being treated as an instant cash machine for second cousins and friends of friends who want new shoes and forget that rent is due.

 

[Disneyland_emily]

I can understand the frustration as I deal with it every month listening to friends who despite making a rather decent salary always have "no money" at the end of the month and live extremely paycheck to paycheck and how its perfectly fine to be paying off credit cards for things they haven't owned in years and an unexpected bill sends them in hysterics as they cant afford it (yet spending 20 bucks most days eating out is easily afforded)

Its frustrating to me cause despite making in some instances 1/3 to 1/2 of what they do I don't live paycheck to paycheck and I just don't comprehend how they can live that way and I don't feel I go without. I have everything I need and almost everything I want. Yes most of it is now not top of the line (Drive an 06 Corolla etc) (Ipod Touch 2nd gen vs 4th gen)

It has not always been roses going from a salary of 18 bucks an hour to 7.25 was a huge shock to the system and was very rough going for a few months so I've been there- I just refused to stay

I am planning a vacation for September to Disneyland and one of my friends wants to go and when the discussion came up on how "he wondered if we would be able to afford to go as it would cost upwards of 800+ dollars each- and how would i possibly save that much by sept as I make so little" My response of "The money is already there" shocked him... Now will I think he'll get the money by sept- not sure...

I really honestly think a lot of it comes down to how money was taught and exampled as a child. I was raised very well in that regard and I can see how others were not and see very easily how their money controls them and not them controlling their money.

Debt happens (esp medical) and it can either be overcome or become a lifestyle.

-em

 

[DawnM]

10 years ago you spent $300 on groceries and now you spend $1,000?

10 years ago I spent just about 20% less on groceries than I do now.

My income is pretty much at the median. 10 years ago, we purchased a (reasonable cost) house. It costs about $200/month to heat in the winter. Fast forward 10 years and it suddenly cost $800 to heat. That's an increase of 400%. My income increase is about 10% for those 10 years.

We spent about $300/month in groceries back then. Today, as I said, we spend about $1000. A 330% increase. Income increased by 10%.

 

[disneysteve]

Debt happens and it can either be overcome or become a lifestyle.

I like that statement a lot!

 

[Colleen27]

My honest answer to that would be...no. I think it puts people in a very uncomfortable situation to have to ask their friends for help in these situations. I think it makes you feel like a child, who is forever in the position of owing these friends, and vulnerable to having every penny you spend scrutinized ("you bought x brand of cereal? You should have bought z brand, it is 3 cents cheaper per box!").

And it means that only those people lucky enough to have friends with money get help. What about those who are socially awkward or for other reasons have few or no friends? Is it just too bad for them?

Of course the bigger issue is that many people who are poor or struggling financially have friends who are also poor. In fact, in many poor communities the people do help each other as much as they can, but the help is very limited.

I value government programs that support people in difficult situations. For me, it's a way of helping (through my tax dollars) people who I don't even know who need help.

I agree. Helping friends or family directly strains relationships all the way around. We've done it enough to know that it isn't good for the relationship with the person in need, and that it is even worse on DH & my marriage in many cases. The closest we've ever come to splitting up was over an extended period of helping his brother and the way his brother treated us (me) during that time.

I believe strongly in local charitable efforts and support them as much as I can, but as you say, often poor people have mostly poor friends and live in poor communities. I love my little town but is it solidly working class/blue collar with a lower-than-average median income and higher-than-average unemployment. There's only so much the community is able to do for one another without outside support.

 

[Colleen27]

10 years ago you spent $300 on groceries and now you spend $1,000?

10 years ago I spent just about 20% less on groceries than I do now.

I think you're at the very low end of the grocery price increases then. I can't compare my personal grocery budget now vs 10 years ago because that's just apples to oranges - we had an infant and a preschooler then, and now we've got a teenage boy (aka bottomless pit), tween, and preschooler, and I've shifted to growing a lot more of our produce over that time.

But I do know that many of the items I buy at the grocery store have gone up more than 20% just in the last year or two. I used to get milk on sale regularly for $2/gal; now I count myself lucky to find it for $2.50 and often pay $3. I used to buy bread at the bakery outlet for 66¢/loaf; now that same variety is $1.25. Peanut butter is up 25% over just the last year. The ice cream brand that I like has held prices constant but reduced the package size from 1/2 gal to 1.5qt which is just a hidden price hike. And don't even get me started on coffee; we're paying $2 more per lb than we were two years ago. Just about every item we buy at the grocery store has gone up markedly over the last two years and high gas prices promise to continue to push those prices even higher.

Time ran an article about this just last week that is worth a read IMO - http://business.time.com/2012/03/12...ucers-consumers-battle-over-high-food-prices/.

 

[disykat]

Go ahead and flog me. We owe money due to a car loan. I realize that not everyone feels this way but clearly some feel that anyone who owes money (except maybe a home loan) is a slacker. To each their own.

.

What thread are you reading?

 

[luvthemouse71]

Therein lies the question. What about those of us who have not made bad money decisions? Do we get to pass judgement?

Sure, you get to pass judgement, but it doesnt mean people have to find your judgement valid. You know what they say, "opinions are like rectal orifices, everyone has one".

 

[Muushka]

My honest answer to that would be...no. I think it puts people in a very uncomfortable situation to have to ask their friends for help in these situations. I think it makes you feel like a child, who is forever in the position of owing these friends, and vulnerable to having every penny you spend scrutinized ("you bought x brand of cereal? You should have bought z brand, it is 3 cents cheaper per box!").

And it means that only those people lucky enough to have friends with money get help. What about those who are socially awkward or for other reasons have few or no friends? Is it just too bad for them?

Of course the bigger issue is that many people who are poor or struggling financially have friends who are also poor. In fact, in many poor communities the people do help each other as much as they can, but the help is very limited.

I value government programs that support people in difficult situations. For me, it's a way of helping (through my tax dollars) people who I don't even know who need help.

Teresa

The money we all gave was anonymous, through our church.

Let me ask this.

Does anyone think that the fact that someone who would need to swallow their pride to ask for help is a bad thing?

Does anyone think that with the government taking care of everything, makes people more likely to take advantage?

If you knew that you were depending on the kindness of friends to help you out, would you be more likely to try to not depend on anyone?

I believe that every penny donated to families in need without the government involved is very well spent.

I believe that every tax dollar we pay towards welfare is not wisely spent.

I'll be quiet now.

 

[disneysteve]

I believe that every penny donated to families in need without the government involved is very well spent.

I believe that every tax dollar we pay towards welfare is not wisely spent.

I agree with you in theory but I don't think reality is that simple.

The soup kitchens in Atlantic City have had trouble over the years because they are in the shadow of the casinos. People spend the day gambling and then mosey over to get a free lunch at the shelter only to turn around and go back to the casino to gamble some more. Do you really think every penny donated to those shelters is "very well spent." I don't.

At the same time, there are people who truly and legitimately benefit from government programs. They may be elderly. They may be disabled. They may honestly be unable to work or support themselves for good reason. Without the government aid, they'd likely be on the street if not dead.

Private donations can be abused. Public money can be abused. I don't think you can say one is always good and the other is always bad.

 

[Muushka]

I agree with you in theory but I don't think reality is that simple.

The soup kitchens in Atlantic City have had trouble over the years because they are in the shadow of the casinos. People spend the day gambling and then mosey over to get a free lunch at the shelter only to turn around and go back to the casino to gamble some more. Do you really think every penny donated to those shelters is "very well spent." I don't.

At the same time, there are people who truly and legitimately benefit from government programs. They may be elderly. They may be disabled. They may honestly be unable to work or support themselves for good reason. Without the government aid, they'd likely be on the street if not dead.

Private donations can be abused. Public money can be abused. I don't think you can say one is always good and the other is always bad.

I probably didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about donating to charities. I saw first had how they are abused.

I was talking more about donations to families via church. Or knowing someone who needs something.
They do not need to know who it is coming from, just that someone cares about them.
My husband donates to certain charities that he knows use the money wisely, but me, not so much.
Just an animal charity because it is hard to know exactly which animal needs what!

 

[Teresa Pitman]

The money we all gave was anonymous, through our church.

Let me ask this.

Does anyone think that the fact that someone who would need to swallow their pride to ask for help is a bad thing?

Does anyone think that with the government taking care of everything, makes people more likely to take advantage?

If you knew that you were depending on the kindness of friends to help you out, would you be more likely to try to not depend on anyone?

I believe that every penny donated to families in need without the government involved is very well spent.

I believe that every tax dollar we pay towards welfare is not wisely spent.

I'll be quiet now.

I do disagree!

Yes, I think it is bad that people have to swallow their pride to ask for help. It keeps many from asking for help that they truly and often urgently need and can cause much unnecessary suffering.

Let me ask you this - you think the government takes care of everything - why are YOU not taking advantage of it? Why don't I? I'm sure there are several reasons, but the reality is that most people don't. Some people do, but their numbers are few, and I suspect they would take advantage of other programs (and yes, charities, churches, etc. are OFTEN defrauded).

I strongly disagree that money spent on people in need by charities, churches, etc. is always well spent!! Here's why: most charities, foundations, churches, have their own "projects" or agendas they want to fund. Maybe they only provide money for Jewish families (so the non-religious family is out of luck) or they only donate food (so the family that needs diapers or money for medication or home repairs to make their house safe is out of luck) or they provide money for housing only if they live in a certain area (so the single mother whose divorce decree requires her to live in the same area as her ex-husband is out of luck). People working with poor families spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the family fit into what the charity wants the money spent on. And yes, the money gets wasted or at least is not spent on what the family's most urgent needs are. Thank goodness there are government programs that don't have these restrictions but can be directed to meet the family's needs.

The other thing that happens with many (not all, and I only know about my province) government programs is education, counselling, etc. A church may give a family food; if a family is referred to family and children's services they can get food vouchers PLUS counselling to help them learn to manage money better, find cheaper housing, get treatment for mental health problems, find work, etc. It's the "giving a fish" or "teaching someone how to fish" story.

Teresa

 

[Muushka]

you think the government takes care of everything - why are YOU not taking advantage of it?

You are joking, right?

Some believe that organizations know best how to spend money. Others believe that the government knows best.
I don't think either one does a very good job.
We need to agree to disagree.