What about the monorail extension?

[crusader]

Don't worry, Disney will come crashing down for myriad other reasons before Monorail expansion kills them.

"the sky is falling!" "the sky is falling!"

It's a far more complex question with no clear cut yes or no answer

No way. No matter what time of day, you can easily walk straight to your car from the parks and bypass the bus/tram/boat/monorail (with the exception of MK), hop in and get around ten times faster than using the transport system.

It's not more efficient - it's designed as an internal transport system to casually and conviently accomodate the masses.

Speaking of Since the World Began here's a brief editorial I liked:

http://www.planetpeschel.com/Reviews/Nonfiction/disneyworld.htm

Nothing new, really but the "incredibly unique and complex infrastructure" was designed by the planners from day one with E.P.C.O.T. Yeah the transportation system was scrapped and reconfigured for the design of what we have now - but what are you pointing out?

 

[DancingBear]

"the sky is falling!" "the sky is falling!"

I see now! Yoho's statement was a homage to the Disney classic-in-the-making, Chicken Little!

 

[crusader]

Very astute indeed DB!

I do believe those brilliant Disney veterans may have dazzled us again! They've answered the age old adage of "what came first?" - Apparently, Chicken Little was conceived in the backseat of Car 3!

 

[DrTomorrow]

[...]People don't want to take a vacation and end up dealing with the same sort of tedium that they deal with every day at home, like queueing for and riding buses. [...]

Not sure where you live, but the vast majority of Americans (largest group of WDW visitors) do NOT use mass transit on a regular basis. I spent decades driving a 1/2 hour or more to work each day; to me, the buses, and the monorails, and the boats are "rides". At the end of a long, hot day at a park, I like nothing better to get on a boat/bus/monorail and let someone else take me home - if I have to wait a few minutes, well, I'm in no hurry....

 

[mrsdisneyfan]

DRTOMORROW, I totally agree. We have spent entire afternoons just rinding buses, monorails and boats. We feel like they are rides too. For our family the best part of the vacation is not having to drive a car and look at a map.

 

[Michael623]

I remember a few years ago a rumor that Disneywas looking into the possibility of some kind of light rail. Any word on that or was it really just a rumor?

 

[Bstanley]

Hmmm, somehow my desire to replace inefficient, smoke-belching, last century, diesel-guzzling buses has been interpreted to mean that I think WDW should entirely abandon mass-transit.

Let me be more clear.

* WDW needs to improve it's mass transit or it risks stagnating.

* WDW bus service is the weakest link in the present mass transit chain and should therefore be addressed first.

* WDW should choose to replace the bus service with something that not only moves people's backsides from point A to point B but also manages to do it in an entertaining and hopefully innovative way.

If WDW does this then when someone returns home from their vacation and is asked how they got around WDW they can answer - "It was amazing - we rode on these fantastic Atomic-powered BLIMPS that were worth the price of the trip all by themselves!" - instead of "It was great - we rode a bus..." at which point the listener thinks to themselves - "another Disney fanatic..." and disregards everything they say after that.

 

[Plus4206]

Problem is Bstan is that the Jetson's are still a long way from reality. When transporting thousands of people from PORS to DAK there really aren't that many options and I think it's a little unrealistic to believe Disney should invent some "Magical" way of doing it.

Disney is in the process of replacing the GMC, Detroit Diesel, mega cloud of black smoke fleet with more efficient units. The fumes are minimal. I imagine Disney could fill the buses with some kewl flat panel displays and pipe in the Zip-a-dee-do stations we get back at our resort, but they're still going to be buses.

Bottom line is that no matter what system is used there will always be wait times and there will always be crowds.

 

[YoHo]

Mr. Crusader you do me a disservice.

I was merely suggesting that Disney has far bigger concerns then the implementation of a monorail system. At least the monorail service represents a fixed cost to construct and relativly fixed costs to run. unlike many other Disney ventures...whether I approve of them or not.

As for my comments on WDW's infrastructure. My point was and is that Disney's infrastrucer itself is a reflection of Walt's Epcot vision which is not restricted to that themepark alone. Ergo, Disney Transportation should be representative of that.

I contend that busses and being forced to drive yourself are not representative of that vision.


As for whether it's always faster to drive. You my friend have had a very different experience from me. I remember numerous times searching the VAST parkinglot with my parents for our car, getting stuck in the exit much like at a rock concert.

Perhaps all the people here are too savy and would never be at the park during that crunch, but far more will and it's for them that the transportation system really exists.

 

[YoHo]

Problem is Bstan is that the Jetson's are still a long way from reality. When transporting thousands of people from PORS to DAK there really aren't that many options and I think it's a little unrealistic to believe Disney should invent some "Magical" way of doing it.

Disney is in the process of replacing the GMC, Detroit Diesel, mega cloud of black smoke fleet with more efficient units. The fumes are minimal. I imagine Disney could fill the buses with some kewl flat panel displays and pipe in the Zip-a-dee-do stations we get back at our resort, but they're still going to be buses.

Bottom line is that no matter what system is used there will always be wait times and there will always be crowds.

Why is it unrealistic to expect them to invent some magical way of Doing it? isn't that exactly what they did regularly showcase if not outright invent? Can we not see pictures of Walt in Disneyland with the latest transportation ideas?

It seems to me that this is a core ideal of Walt's and his visions. I'd like to think we could expect this kind of thinking from Disney all the time.


As I said before though, Transportation doesn't generate revenue, so the current managment just doesn't care.

 

[crusader]

OK - truce.

As for my comments on WDW's infrastructure. My point was and is that Disney's infrastrucer itself is a reflection of Walt's Epcot vision which is not restricted to that themepark alone. Ergo, Disney Transportation should be representative of that.

I have a hard time mirroring this. I agree the infrastructure as built in terms of the improvements does support the city which reflected Walt's vision.

But when you talk about the original transportation system, it was designed by WED to move individuals from the outer perimeters where the "burbs" were into the main hub housing the psuedo-city with connections from there. It was a glorified light rail or shuttle system, designed to transport workers and tourists within a city environment.

Well, the city never materialized, and neither did the corporate co-ops complete with R&D facilities or the suburban residential areas.

Instead, they built a second themepark with expansion for more on-site accomodations. They had to link the monorail because all they had in terms of accomodations at that time were the original two - the Poly and the Contemporary along with the Campground. They were also running the busses and using the TTC as the central hub.

I think the monorail expansion was an excellent plan far greater than the WED project for what they built at EPCOT.

But this was all that was on the table. Sure, Walt would have been looking for more innovative ways to improve this system long before now, because he was building a prototype city. But he wasn't expecting to fly solo on the financial end. He was looking to outsource through sponsorships and other subsidies.

That outlet doesn't exist with what WDW became so we're kidding ourselves here that the company should now contract and build a technologically supersonic transport system on their own dime.

 

[YoHo]

Well, Walt regularly employed sponsership and I personally wouldn't have a problem if that were odne again, but whether presented with his city or the current Themepark complex, I think Walt would have been concerned about Transportation, it's implimentation and new designs far more then current Disney ever was. As I said, he certainly had a passion for it within his own themepark.


Also as I've said before, the transportation as implemented with 2 parks and 3 hotels plus campground is far different then that same infrastructure with the current 4 parks and however many hotels.

 

[raidermatt]

No way. No matter what time of day, you can easily walk straight to your car from the parks and bypass the bus/tram/boat/monorail (with the exception of MK), hop in and get around ten times faster than using the transport system.

C'mon, that is simply not true and you know it (even if we ignore the 10x hyperbole). If you're going from MK to one of the hotels on the loop or vice versa, it certainly can be faster. Of course, it all depends on how long you wait for a train, etc, but to say its never faster is just plain untrue.

Of course, that's no different than most mass transit systems anywhere. They often are slower than if one drove, and sometimes they are faster, again, depending on the time of day, etc.

Its does seem rather narrow to knock the monorail for supposed inherent inefficiencies in light of YoHo's point about it not changing while circumstances changed around it.

Finally, its important to remember that DL/WDW were not built on the idea that efficiency comes first. Doesn't mean it's ignored, but it was not the top priority. I'll keep coming back to the point that if they did think that way, we wouldn't have much of what we have now, including the Monorails.

Of course I continue to add the disclaimer that transportation enhancements do not have to come from the Monorail, only that they should come.

 

[crusader]

Well, I was too quick to post on the resort issue pre 1980.

By 1973 - on site with one park - the Magic Kingdom.

3 MK resorts (forgot the Golf resort/Disney Inn)
a campground
Treehouse and vacation villas

In 1974 - Discovery Island was added
In 1975 - Disney Village Marketplace (formerly known as Lake Buena Vista shopping complex) and the Fairway villas opened.
In 1976 - River Country was added

All this was serviced with the initial transport infrastructure which relied heavily on bussing between the marketplace and the MK areas.

If you break it down - you'll find a variance similar to today.

1970's -

One park. Two deluxe hotels with a myriad of options and three other on-site accomodations heavily dependent on bussing. (the campground balanced the two since you could always get to a deluxe by boat and utilize the other options from there so I'll keep it out of the equation)

= 40% of the accomodation options with an inclusive transport system
(2 out of 5) - keeping the campground neutral.

Very similar correlation in 2005:

Today counting all property resorts (incl. Shades of Green and the Dolphin/Swan) 43% of the accomodations have submersive transport systems (7 out of 16) - keeping WL and the campground neutral.

The only difference I can reasonably see us griping about is with respect to the AKL and the AK park. Every other expansion has allowed adjacent deluxe accomodations to have variable transport options.

It's hard to blame current management for a shift in philosophy on a structure designed and implemented very similar in the 70's.

 

[Plus4206]

Yoho, when it comes to computors, audio, video, cell phones, etc. the sky's the limit. But that's not the case in the transportation field. Unless someone invents a "beam me up Scottie" or a working "Stargate" then there is no getting around a system that will require standing in a depot and waiting for a train,plane or automobile to arrive. I think Segways are cool but they aren't a practical mode for mass transit thru WDW. I love the TTA. It's my favorite ride in MK put I don't picture it as a bus replacement option.

Matt, I always have a car in WDW & I know the roads in WDW very well. With the exception of MK the car will always get me where I want tobe faster. The only part of Crusaders statement I don't agree with is skipping the tram unless I'm parked very close to the enterance. I'm normally in WDW Oct/Nov, early Dec and mid-late May. I've also been in June & July and have never had an issue with traffic inside WDW. Maybe I'm just missing the mega traffic jams but after ten years to using Disney's system and my car, I'll take my car.

 

[burnsoc]

I think they should buy a million Segway's.

 

[manning]

When it is said it can't be done, then it will not be done. Why? Because it is believed it can't be done.

I like the saying in that children's story. "I think I can, I think I can." ...... And he did it.

 

[zcasper]

* WDW should choose to replace the bus service with something that not only moves people's backsides from point A to point B but also manages to do it in an entertaining and hopefully innovative way.

Absolutely. I believe a Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system would be an ideal place for Disney and the flegiling PRT industry to experiment with mass transportation of tomorrow. These are very innovative system which I believe would work very well at WDW. Checkout this link here for an example of a PRT system:

http://www.skywebexpress.com/

Zach

 

[All Aboard]

C'mon, that is simply not true and you know it (even if we ignore the 10x hyperbole). If you're going from MK to one of the hotels on the loop or vice versa, it certainly can be faster. Of course, it all depends on how long you wait for a train, etc, but to say its never faster is just plain untrue.

But, Matt, your example is limited to MK resorts and MK. I'll race you to Epcot from the Grand Floridian - you on Mark VI, me in my car. I'll beat you every time. Your trip will be more magical, but I'll beat you every time.

And that's my point in this thread. The roads really aren't terribley clogged at WDW. Auto travel, to me at least, is pretty darn easy, especially with lots at three of the parks. Plus, the busses aren't magical at all, but they work - and pretty efficiently, too.

 

[Bstanley]

crusader,

I don't know about that - The Golf Resort was seperated by plan, and FW had boats AND a Steam Train (my personal favorite mode of transport (even though I never visited WDW while it was operating). The only bus service would have been to DTD (Disney Village).

I'm not familiar with the Fairway Villas, but the name sounds suspiciously like another 'Golf Resort'.

gcurling,

I wouldn't be so sure about the GF race. I've tried that route with my sons on the monorail and me in my car. It's a toss-up, depends on the TTC connection (and whether you're a AAA member - parking lot location - or a FAST walker - monorail connection or parking lot location).

But in reality is the actual time that important (literally less than 2 minutes one way or the other by our measurement)? Which would you rather do? If you can honestly say that you would rather drive yourself to/from EPCOT - GF rather than taking monorails I will stop arguing immediately.
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The discussion here isn't about whether there SHOULD be mass-transit - it sounds like ya'll want Disney to sell all their buses and force everybody to drive themselves around - that will probably save the company a lot of money the first year, but after that the only people going back will be the ones that have WDW's road net memorized...

Even Disney, Inc. recognizes the suicidal nature of that move. That's why they support a substantial mass-transit system today: monorails, boats, and yes - buses. Now the last time I heard a number there was something in excess of 500 buses in operation.

Moving forward - with an expectation that WDW wants to increase the number of people who visit and continously improve customer satisfaction - should WDW just dump another couple hundred GMCs (plus heaven knows how many people in rental cars who are fed up with the buses) onto the road net - and if you've only driven there the week after Thanksgiving and not the week after Christmas please don't tell me how light the traffic is...

Or should they take some of the millions that they pay for roads, buses, diesel, etc. and put it into something that not only moves <> people, but MOVES!! people?