What about the monorail extension?

[Plus4206]

I think Disney understands that people waiting at depots or sitting on extended bus routes are not spending money. It's in their best interest to get a wallet from point A to point B as quickly as possible. That being said, I think Disney has accumulated a large data base of info that measures ACTUAL transport time as opposed to PERCEIVED transport time. When Disney see's that actual time exceed their self imposed limit, additional transportion issues will be addressed.

What did I mean by actual vs perceived ? If bus stops at a depot every 20 minutes you will get several different opinions of WDW's mass transit system. To the family who arrived a moment or two before the bus arrived, the system is perfect. If you happened to arrive a few seconds after the bus left, it sux. But Disney is tracking what actually happens. Is the number of people who wait 20 minutes great enough to add extra buses ? Will getting those people to the parks 10 minutes faster generate enough income to pay for the additional transport expense ?

I think Disney's current system works pretty well. You've got to be one unlucky person to come away from WDW so pissed about the system you vowl never to return.

 

[crusader]

Bruce -

You had to pay for that steam train ride in the 70's even if it was only $1.00/adult and it didn't transport you anywhere. It looped around the campground with only two depot stops - one at the front entrance and one at the back by river country.

I have trouble including it as a transport option since they charged for it.

The truth is, you can argue either side for the campground and WL which is why I left them neutral. But, even if you include them - either way - the stats won't change much.

And if I recall correctly, the busses only ran campers to the TTC back then. You had to switch over from there to get anywhere else, which was really only the DTD and MK areas at the time.

 

[Bstanley]

Ahh. I had read that the Steam Train was just a loop to get people back and forth at FW, I wasn't aware it was extra cost. I guess I'll have to accept FW as neutral then.

 

[raidermatt]

But, Matt, your example is limited to MK resorts and MK. I'll race you to Epcot from the Grand Floridian - you on Mark VI, me in my car. I'll beat you every time. Your trip will be more magical, but I'll beat you every time.

That's fine, and I realize your statement is true.

So, the question becomes what are we looking for? All Magic with horrible efficiency? Extremely efficient with no Magic? A little of both? A lot of both?

Perhaps a few different options to accomodate the widely varied preferences of Disney's guests?

I would venture to guess that the more frequent visitors who take shorter trips are looking for greater efficiency, while the less frequent visitors who take longer trips are more than happy to take a few more minutes for something they consider an "experience". (Of course there are exceptions)

For example, I know you'll beat me in your car from the GF to Epcot everytime, Greg. But you know what? It doesn't bother me at all. I enjoy riding the Monorail to or past the MK, and through the Contemporary. I'll take a boat ride that takes a few more minutes over driving a car every single time.

Magic aside, if you're driving your car because Disney just isn't coming close to matching your efficiency on most trips, THAT is part of the problem as well.

Also, the transportation system HAS to take into account the fact that many just aren't going to drive to WDW because its too far, or they simply prefer to fly. And if you don't have your own car, you're now talking about rental prices as an additional cost. Do I want to pay $15+ a day to rent a car just so I can drive it for 20 minutes a day, all because the transportation that is included in the price of my lodging/tickets is inadequate?

If you want to accept that cost just because you prefer driving, regardless of how efficient or magical Disney's transportation is, so be it. But if you are forced into making that choice because Disney's transportation lacks efficiency, or just isn't magical, that becomes a problem.

Ehanced bus service, expanded/enhanced Monorail (like 2 way traffic), light rail, steam trains, expanded boat service, whatever.... I'm not saying that any one of those is the answer. Only that there is an issue that should be resolved, and it will likely take some combination of those things (and/or other things) to do it.

 

[SoCalKDG]

Very interesting thread and well thought out opinions all around. Just back from a 10 day trip(4/9 to 4/19) where I stayed at BWV and WL and VWL. This was my second trip to WDW, my first I had stayed offsite and rented a minivan(this goes for approx. $25 a day using major discounts), this trip, no car.

Buses - great for MK, BB, and AK. Never waited more than 7 minutes to get a bus, and the trip was quick. Always interesting to talk to other passengers as well.

Boats - Used for Epcot and DS(a couple days the dock was down for refurb. so we walked to Epcot). To Epcot very quick, DS slower with a couple stops. Comes approx. every 10 minutes, but we would snack at the bakery on the BW or relax in chairs on the BW enjoying the activities while waiting, so never seemed like a wait. The boat from WL to MK was nice in the day, but a bit cold at night.

Monorail - For the move from BWV to WL, we decided to monorail to TTC, then to MK, then to WL. Should have taken a bus. The ride to TTC was great, very quick, no wait, moved faster than traffic. The problem started when we couldn't take the monorail from TTC to MK due to ???(maybe nighttime fireworks starting later). So we took a boat to MK, then another boat to WL. Should have done the bus as it was late.

Now comparing all this to a car, all I can say is I was very impressed. I saved $250, plus saved some time for Epcot and MK by taking the bus/boat over driving a car. More importantly was the magic that I felt existed non-stop(except that one Friday night in our BWV/WL transfer) for my whole trip. Being an AP'er in SoCal, driving my car and visiting a park is common place. Plus I commute. Having Disney do it all in one form or another made me feel like my vacation was never being interupted. Yes, this even included the buses.

I'd like to see the monorail extended to DS with a station being added there. Another form of transportion to AK would also be great as its the only park with only one type of Disney transportation going to it.

 

[All Aboard]

I think we are in agreement Matt. But, I wonder about the regular guest and what would happen when the route becomes far more complex than the current extreme (which is GF to Epcot.) What happens when the guest wants to go from GF to AK on the monorail? Or AKL to the Magic Kingdom. Those routes likely become FAR more time consuming than the current bus or car option.

So, does the guest remember a magical trip on the monorail, or does the guest remember a 75 minute trip from AKL to MK with changes at the MGM station, the Epcot station and the TTC?

I'm not a transportation engineer, but I am struggling with laying out of a system that doesn't 1) require guests to make multiple train changes or 2) have so many direct routes that WDW becomes one giant monorail beam - with costs that truly make this a farcical exercise.

 

[SoCalKDG]

What happens when the guest wants to go from GF to AK on the monorail? Or AKL to the Magic Kingdom. Those routes likely become FAR more time consuming than the current bus or car option.

So, does the guest remember a magical trip on the monorail, or does the guest remember a 75 minute trip from AKL to MK with changes at the MGM station, the Epcot station and the TTC?

I'm not a transportation engineer, but I am struggling with laying out of a system that doesn't 1) require guests to make multiple train changes or 2) have so many direct routes that WDW becomes one giant monorail beam - with costs that truly make this a farcical exercise.

I'd add DS to the Epcot loop. It would be TTC to Epcot to DS back to TTC.

AKL should go directly to TTC, if possible make the entrance to to the monorail accessable to both the resort and to the AK(w/ short walk). Thus only one change is required to get to any of the parks(or from one park to another. This should keep the ride less than 30 minutes.

Charging an additional $100 per room per night at AKL would help with some of the cost, adding a DVC would gather even more money.

 

[duranfan]

They need to do some road rerouting period at WDW. Some of the bus routes are total waste of time. You have to go from Point A to Point Z to reach point B.
The buses they run are costly and with the price of fuel they must be spending more than ever.
If not the monorail, there must be a more effective way to transport people.

 

[raidermatt]

I hear ya Greg. I'm definitely not a transportation engineer either, and I haven't even bothered to try to map it all out anyway (hence part of the reason for my disclaimer that I'm not saying the Monorail IS the answer).

Clearly if it becomes confusing to the guest, that detracts from the Show and that's not good, so they'd have to find a way to "unconfuse" it. I'm confident there are bright enough people out there to do it, whether its with a Monorail or something else.

Speaking of confusing/frustrating... Ever try to get from the BWV to the HDD Revue using Disney transportation?

 

[Sarangel]

We did it in a car, and it was confusing I can only imagine how hard it is for people who don't know WDW as well as we do.

 

[YoHo]

Agreed, I'm not a transportation engineer, but I think that everyone is a little too hung up on train changes, again, because they are so used to the current inadequate monorail system that has never been adjusted for changing demand.


One bi directional track that hits all 4 themeparks and the TTC could probably be all it takes. Other destinations would have something else. either their own loop the way MK resorts do, or something else. (not Light rail, I laugh every time some says that's better then a bus.)

Again, my outline above could be completely bogus. I could be totally wrong about the possibility with such a right of way, but I think it's wrong to think it can't be done.

Mor eimportantly, it sounds like just the kind of challenge Disney is noted for overcoming.

 

[All Aboard]

One bi directional track that hits all 4 themeparks and the TTC could probably be all it takes.

I recall this discussion earlier. Personally, I don't like this one because all it does is enhance the experience for those staying at 3 resorts. And, it makes park hopping easier - but, I think I've read that wide-scale park hopping doesn't exist. I really think if the monorail is going to be expanded, the way WDW gets some of it back is by looping in a few more resorts and raising the demand, and thus the price. I don't think running a rail out to AK and the Studios, alone, drives much incremental revenue.

YoHo, read your PM's. Yes, I want to take you up on your offer to cross paths at Disneyland next month. Aside from really wanting to finally meet you in person... Once I do, I will definitely become the undesputed, undefeated DIS Rumor Board People meeting Champion of the World with no fears of anyone passing me. I'll have met damn near the entire posting population on Jewell's board.

 

[YoHo]

Greg, I saw your pm.

Anyway, Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to suggest that no other resorts get a new transportation option. Only that there should be a major core such as that. Basically, this is my assumption. Nobody minds a train transfer if it's efficient. A core route will move you from MK area to Epcot Area to AK area. Maybe it even has to go to DTD. I don't know.

Moves both directions you transfer to the "resort loop" for the resort you're heading to.

Again, I'm not a transportation engineer, but this makes sense to me.

Perhaps there is a more elegant solution.

My main point in all of this of course has been that nobody with access to the budget cares, because the transportation doesn't generate revenue.

I'm sure someone somewhere has produces a graph that shows just how little they have to do to keep attendence and sales at the proper level.

 

[raidermatt]

My main point in all of this of course has been that nobody with access to the budget cares, because the transportation doesn't generate revenue.

Well, it isn't easy to figure out how it generates revenue, which I'm sure is what you meant.

If today's accountaneers had gone back in time to 1953 or 1968 and done a cost/benefit analysis on DL and WDW respecitively, you'd have the same problem you have today. They would show that the Monorail wouldn't generate enough revenue to overcome its cost. Its just not possible, they'd say. They'd say the same thing about a lot of things the company did.

Tranportation, in terms of both efficiency and "Magic", is a piece of the overall WDW experience. Improving it in both of those areas WILL increase demand for the resort, which of course translates into revenue. How much? Nobody knows for sure. All I'll say right now is we should be careful about using a method of analysis to show something won't work when that same method proved to be inaccurate in the past.

 

[manning]

Well, it isn't easy to figure out how it generates revenue, which I'm sure is what you meant.

If today's accountaneers had gone back in time to 1953 or 1968 and done a cost/benefit analysis on DL and WDW respecitively, you'd have the same problem you have today. They would show that the Monorail wouldn't generate enough revenue to overcome its cost. Its just not possible, they'd say. They'd say the same thing about a lot of things the company did.

Tranportation, in terms of both efficiency and "Magic", is a piece of the overall WDW experience. Improving it in both of those areas WILL increase demand for the resort, which of course translates into revenue. How much? Nobody knows for sure. All I'll say right now is we should be careful about using a method of analysis to show something won't work when that same method proved to be inaccurate in the past.

The difference is you don't have Walt Disney. He didn't care what it cost!!! It was part of the show!!!

 

[SoCalKDG]

I recall this discussion earlier. Personally, I don't like this one because all it does is enhance the experience for those staying at 3 resorts. And, it makes park hopping easier - but, I think I've read that wide-scale park hopping doesn't exist. I really think if the monorail is going to be expanded, the way WDW gets some of it back is by looping in a few more resorts and raising the demand, and thus the price. I don't think running a rail out to AK and the Studios, alone, drives much incremental revenue.

Running the rail to Studios would allow all the Epcot resorts(BC,YC,BW, S&D) an easy place to board the monorail. The current entrance at the front of Epcot can't be accessed by these resorts without going through the Epcot. Setting up the AK station such that both AK and AKL could use it adds another resort as well. Additionally every park would then be on the monorail.

Funny, just got back and we park hopped at least half the time. WDW's data led them to changing the way ticket pricing is done. What that data actually said about PH I'm not sure.

 

[YoHo]

WDW's data said that people weren't willing to spend $35 (or whatever the price was) to get in to Disney/MGM studios, because there wasn't enough to do. Therefore, they created park hopping to encourage attendence. The EXACT same way DL didn't have park hopping for DCA originally and only added it when they realized nobody was willing to pay $50 to spend the day there.

 

[crusader]

Yoho -

I don't know what your source is for this "data" and I've heard this argument about MGM Studios before but it doesn't hold up. The truth is, you could park hop back in the early 80's when there were only two parks.

Here's a little trip down memory lane.

http://waltdatedworld.bravepages.com/id99.htm

Unfortunately, you can't see from this link the cover of the original ticket book which was a monorail pass.

 

[YoHo]

Crusader, you must be smoking something funny. There is not a single item I see on that page that confirms your assertion.


I in fact remember vividly having these tickets

In 1986 and you simply were not allowed to switch parks mid day. That was a 3 day pass each day at a single park.

I think you are misreading what that website is saying.

What you could do is enter and leave that one park as often as you wished on that single day, but you could not enter a different park without then restamping the passport and thus using up another day.

 

[crusader]

Ahh...............

I do believe it is you who may be hallucinating.

The world passport was a hopper. Good for three days at both parks. But if you really don't believe me..................

Look again at that link I posted

I mean really look again and READ THE FINE PRINT!!!!! (I'd post the photos if I knew how)

I call your particular attention to the following:

1982 Commemorative Epcot ticket when the park opened

and that's not all folks:

The 1982 world passport which replaced the Commemorative ticket.

Look it was coined the "world passport" because it gave you a pass to the "World" for the day - not one of the parks vs. the other.

BTW, I noticed the person who owned that child passport you copied from my link didn't use all three days. If the reason is, they weren't there for the duration, I'm gonna take this one step further. Disney didn't sell a two day hopper back then. You had to pay for this or buy two single park tickets without the ability to hop. Obviously this was the better deal which makes sense.

And you'll also notice the four-day passport was introduced in 1989 - because they now had 3 parks.

(hey, by any chance do you know the answer to my costco ticket question on the disneyland board? you can PM me if this is a southern cal non-disclosure item) quid pro quo.