WDW to prevent AP holders from visiting parks many mornings

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Doug7856]

I certainly hope so. But I'm kind of an Eeyore when it comes to the Chapek administration handling of matters when prioritizing (or non-prioritizing) annual passholders vis-a-vis ticketed or on-site guests. The past handling is just dripping with contempt towards locals and passholders in general from the per-capita spend being such a big talking point, shorting the passholder buckets in favor of ticketed or resort guests, allowing on-site passholders to have length of stay so they can plan trips while throttling off-site guests with three to five measley reservations, killing the ability to do any long-term planning, being last in line for dining reservations and ride reservations because of the 3 to 5 reservation limits, etc.

The real item they have to get rid of is annual passholders being limited to 3 to 5 reservation holds at a time. It is impossible to do any planning months or weeks in advance. So, we get left behind. Always. Now this -- taking away the prime morning hours when the weather is nicer.

There is good reason to be leary of Chapek's administration. He is purely a data guy and is burning up the trust of Disney's biggest fans.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[J-Dog]

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember talk about a year ago or so - rumors of a new ticketing option in which people could buy cheaper park tickets that only let you in for the afternoon. As far as I know, this never happened.

Maybe this AP rumor is the first iteration (or revival) of that?

 

[wnielsen1]

Because even if they sell every single hotel room and all DVC units are occupied, it still is not enough to fill the parks.

I asked why would Disney want to make it attractive to stay off-site. The truth is they won't. Even if every room is booked. If every room is booked consistently, they will build more rooms. If every room is booked, they won't need more AP holders. The parks are jammed right now. It may be tough for my AP friends to hear this, but they don't need AP holders right now. That is why they are not for sale except for a highly restrictive FL resident pass. Eventually that will change, but until then expect more of the same.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember talk about a year ago or so - rumors of a new ticketing option in which people could buy cheaper park tickets that only let you in for the afternoon. As far as I know, this never happened.

Maybe this AP rumor is the first iteration (or revival) of that?

They had those fall 2019 called mid-day magic those at least started with admission at noon. They were available in 2,3, and 4 day tickets.

They also have normal convention style tickets for entry at 4pm that have been ongoing for a while.

It might be a similar concept but the other tickets were designed as a discounted option for those who just don't get there in the park opening. For the APs here it's not like their AP pass costs less to accommodate it.

 

[sheilafri]

Edited my post since I misunderstood the post. So this sounds to me like they're going to add an afternoon/evening admission option rather than make it so AP holders can't enter for a full day at all. That doesn't sound that bad but I do wonder like everyone else how this will impact those staying onsite and/or DVC members that have an AP.

I don't love making the park reservation system even more complicated though.

Given the lack of transparency with the reservation system, there could be far fewer ressies available for full day AP reservations. Do we put it past Disney to do this?

 

[tjkraz]

If they already know the ebb and flow (which I’m assuming they do with all the data collected from magic bands over the years), why do they need park reservations at all to predict where they need resources? They should already know this.

I'm no fan of the Park Pass system but I do think there are ways where it can help both management and guests.

At some point, we've all walked into a Disney theme park and thought to ourselves "wow, EPCOT is really slow today." That's great on the rare occasion when you happen to be in Epcot. But what if you're at MK or DHS which is overflowing with guests? Disney has data on things like hotel and dining reservations, combined with years of data on how many people tend to visit property on a given day. But what they historically cannot predict or control is how many people visit each individual park. If 50% of the people visiting WDW on a given day happen to choose Magic Kingdom, well, that park is going to be really busy. Some of the others, not so much.

Park Pass gives them a mechanism for steering guests toward the parks so that crowds are more evenly distributed. Disney can establish expected staffing levels at each park and dole out the park passes accordingly. When you see that MK and DHS are already full for the day, it means that you're going to have a much better experience at Epcot or AK, especially early in the morning. If a day proves more popular than anticipated, that's when additional staffing is added and Park Passes get "refreshed" with more availability.

Yes, I'm sure Disney saves money on staffing when attendance is low. But even on a slow day at Animal Kingdom, it makes no sense for Disney to short-staff Flight of Passage or Kilimanjaro Safari. The savings come when they're able to eliminate one or two positions at the front entrance, a parking tram driver and not operate a couple ice cream karts that aren't needed.

You certainly don't cut a handful of $15 per hour employees, list the park at max capacity, and then turn way hundreds of guests willing to pay $120 for admission

Using labor resources effectively benefits everyone, both the employer who is still struggling with staffing and the guest who wants a more favorable experience.

Their whole explanation for requiring them is hooey and is purely to control the number of ideal customers vs thrift guests in the park, overtime and to squeak by with the smallest amount of cast members that they can manage.

Right now, pass holders are getting priority over day guests. Guest spending has always been a huge metric for Disney, so that's nothing new.

I'm with those who believe this is a precursor to a tiered Park Pass system. Speaking as a pass holder, it's silly for me to take up an all-day reservation "spot" in the Magic Kingdom on a Tuesday in November if my true intention is to arrive at 6pm after work.

I understand the cynicism but I really do not believe that this is an effort to push Passholders exclusively to the late hours. Certain lower-cost passes may weight their access more heavily toward evenings. I could envision the Pixie Dust pass (locals) being changed to an after-5 pass. Or perhaps it limits guests to a certain number of reservations and/or entries per month in the early morning block, with the rest coming after 5pm.

I've always felt that the biggest weakness of the Park Pass system was that it only allowed guests to make the one reservation regardless of when they plan to arrive. Pre-pandemic, the Magic Kingdom averaged 50,000 guests per day. But that's spread out over an entire 12+ hour operating day; you don't want 50,000 people showing up between 9-10am. Giving Passholders the ability to register for an after-2 or after-5 slot would undoubtedly open things up in the morning, while also distributing crowds more evenly which benefits everyone.

Disney has no good reason to block guests from its parks. Especially not MYW ticket buyers, who are the first ones excluded. I do not envision any scenario in which DVC members are locked into an after 5 pass as their only form of Annual Pass.

 

[tjkraz]

I realize Park Pass gains the most attention when parks reach maximum capacity and are deemed unavailable.

But consider this: since Park Pass began, has anyone ever been in Magic Kingdom at noon on a day when it is "full", and thought to themselves "I really wish Disney would eliminate Park Pass so that even more people could visit MK today"?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I realize Park Pass gains the most attention when parks reach maximum capacity and are deemed unavailable.

But consider this: since Park Pass began, has anyone ever been in Magic Kingdom at noon on a day when it is "full", and thought to themselves "I really wish Disney would eliminate Park Pass so that even more people could visit MK today"?

Since that can mean an empty park or a what feels like a crowded park I couldn't answer the question. Disney decides just what "at capacity" means. I wish I had been at MK on Memorial Day when it was at capacity according to Disney instead of during close to mid-May when it was also at capacity. The crowds were completely different, my days were much more crowded than a Holiday day was.

But in the olden days it's quite possible that would have been the opposite and someone choosing to go in mid-May when it's normally in between spring break and when kids get out of school would see lower crowds than a Holiday time. Before guests could self-regulate when they wanted to go and where, with the park reservation system that is out of their control.

 

[tjkraz]

Since that can mean an empty park or a what feels like a crowded park I couldn't answer the question. Disney decides just what "at capacity" means. I wish I had been at MK on Memorial Day when it was at capacity according to Disney instead of during close to mid-May when it was also at capacity. The crowds were completely different, my days were much more crowded than a Holiday day was.

I would hypothesize that the current reservation system has a lot to do with those variations. A day heavily weighted toward MYW ticket holders arriving at 9am is going to seem a lot busier than a day when Passholders have taken a lot of the reservation spots, arriving later in the day. Perhaps this procedural change is an attempt to correct that.

But in the olden days it's quite possible that would have been the opposite and someone choosing to go in mid-May when it's normally in between spring break and when kids get out of school would see lower crowds than a Holiday time. Before guests could self-regulate when they wanted to go and where, with the park reservation system that is out of their control.

But that "self regulation" created both pros and cons for the guest population as a whole. Guests had absolutely no idea what they would find when they arrive at a park. And hopping to another destination because DHS was "really full" is easier said than done. Impossible for people who don't have park hopping ability.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But that "self regulation" created both pros and cons for the guest population as a whole. Guests had absolutely no idea what they would find when they arrive at a park. And hopping to another destination because DHS was "really full" is easier said than done. Impossible for people who don't have park hopping ability.

And you've spoken to exactly what people liked, you could turn around and go to another park (even just looking at the parking lot or the lines for security which you could do without a park hopping ticket). As is right now you're locked until at least 2pm if you have a park hopping ticket. A guest could also decide they preferred another park on a specific day such as looking at the weather, hard to watch Fanstasmic! if it's pouring rain for the whole day. Weather is totally unpredictable and yet there's a smidgen of flexibility for someone without a park reservation system.

As far as hoppers. Um that goes without saying. The entire point of purchasing park hoppers is to allow you the ability to go to more than one park in a day. If you don't want to do that or it's not in the cards it is what it is. Right now those with park hoppers are restricted to 2pm and tapping in at the park they made reservations for, sometimes that's the park they are actually going to be in, other times it was because the park they really wanted was full. You can't make an argument for a con to someone without park hoppers because that's a specific ticket media with certain rules irrespective to whatever system Disney has at a specific moment. You know buying it you can only use that for 1 park per day. But in the olden days you could have decided last minute I think I'll go to X park instead now you've got a reservation to contend with.

I would hypothesize that the current reservation system has a lot to do with those variations. A day heavily weighted toward MYW ticket holders arriving at 9am is going to seem a lot busier than a day when Passholders have taken a lot of the reservation spots, arriving later in the day. Perhaps this procedural change is an attempt to correct that.

When a day is at capacity it's at capacity for all ticket holders including AP holders. That's the point. Whatever formula for each day is up to Disney to decide. Hence when you asked the question "I really wish Disney would eliminate Park Pass so that even more people could visit MK today" it's hard to answer that because at capacity doesn't mean packed to the gills. It means whatever Disney wants it to mean.

 

[tjkraz]

When a day is at capacity it's at capacity for all ticket holders including AP holders. That's the point. Whatever formula for each day is up to Disney to decide. Hence when you asked the question "I really wish Disney would eliminate Park Pass so that even more people could visit MK today" it's hard to answer that because at capacity doesn't mean packed to the gills. It means whatever Disney wants it to mean.

It's a combination of what Disney wants it to mean and what sort of experience guest actions produce.

Assume for a moment that Disney caps MK attendance at 50k on two separate days, and both have reached reservation capacity. Guests will have vastly different experiences depending upon whether 40k people are actually in the park at 10am vs 20k in the park. There is some logic in creating additional layers so that they can identify when people intend to arrive. Whether or not it turns into an administrative nightmare for the guest remains to be seen.

 

[Boopuff]

Does anyone think some of this stems from recent history: when the ROR opened many AP/local people openly boasted about riding over and over while Susie Snowflake from nowhere USA couldn't ride once. I'm sure many folks on once-in-a-lifetime trips openly complained. Sadly I think a lot of the boasting on the internet is seen by Disney. They don't want Susie to have a bad experience. So what to do?

 

[Smugpugmug]

Given the lack of transparency with the reservation system, there could be far fewer ressies available for full day AP reservations. Do we put it past Disney to do this?

I mean honestly I don't. I can see them doing this. I think they're going to more so "punish" local APs and APs staying offsite rather than those with a hotel stay. Chapek has said in the past that APs are not as valuable a guest as day guests so it's possible.

I do think having an option for a ticket where you can only enter at 4 pm isn't a bad idea. Other Disney parks such as the ones in Japan have tickets like this and they're half off from the regular full day ticket price. I'm waiting to see how that works for APs though, if the rumor is true.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It's a combination of what Disney wants it to mean and what sort of experience guest actions produce.

Assume for a moment that Disney caps MK attendance at 50k on two separate days, and both have reached reservation capacity. Guests will have vastly different experiences depending upon whether 40k people are actually in the park at 10am vs 20k in the park. There is some logic in creating additional layers so that they can identify when people intend to arrive. Whether or not it turns into an administrative nightmare for the guest remains to be seen.

I think we're simultaneously talking about the same thing and yet different things if that makes sense.

What I was responding to is your question about being in an a no park reservations available day in MK and pondering if I would be okay with Disney letting in more people. Well answering that question isn't something in the control of the guests because on one day it could be much more crowded than another day despite both days being no park reservations available all because of how many Disney decides is good.

As far as identify when people intend to arrive they already know this. They've been gathering data for nearly 10 years now on MBs and they've been able to continue to keep up with cell phone data via the MDE app in conjunction or in lieu of MBs if the guest didn't have MB.

I'm not necessarily in disagreement with this rumor except I do see some disadvantages but my response was in respects to your crowd question. I wouldn't put it past Disney but I don't think they want to get into the business of timing ALL their guests (including ones on-site, off-site and AP holders) on when they can enter via a specific timed park reservation for the whole day like a park opening, noon or 5pm, but my point was more there was a guest control aspect pre-park reservations time in terms of that.

 

[tjkraz]

I think we're simultaneously talking about the same thing and yet different things if that makes sense.

What I was responding to is your question about being in an a no park reservations available day in MK and pondering if I would be okay with Disney letting in more people. Well answering that question isn't something in the control of the guests because on one day it could be much more crowded than another day despite both days being no park reservations available all because of how many Disney decides is good.

My point is that with Park Pass, the number of guests should be about the same on both days. What differs is when/how those crowds choose to visit the park, and thus how it impacts the whole. Again, if 40k people show up in the first hour--and stay the majority of the day--the park is going to look and feel very busy. But if only 20k show up in the first hour--with the rest scattered throughout the day--the park will look and feel much less busy.

I realize this runs counter to any concept of spontaneity, but the quality of any theme park visit is going to rely heavily on exactly how many people are in the park at a given time. Today's Park Pass is sort of a half solution. It tells Disney approximately how many people will enter a park on a given day, but not when they will arrive or how long they'll stay. If Disney can manage guest arrivals in a meaningful fashion, it does stand to benefit everyone.

As far as identify when people intend to arrive they already know this. They've been gathering data for nearly 10 years now on MBs and they've been able to continue to keep up with cell phone data via the MDE app in conjunction or in lieu of MBs if the guest didn't have MB.

Surely they can track many long term trends, but I'm not sure how well that applies toward predicting the future. We've all had those park days when things felt busier or slower than anticipated. You referenced a mid-May day at the MK that was "more crowded than a Holiday." Regarding that day, I see two possibilities:

1) Disney actually WANTED that mid-May day to be unseasonably busy and allowed its Park Pass reservations to exceed normal levels, or
2) Some other combination of factors resulted in the day appearing to be busier than normal (larger numbers of early arrivals, fewer people leaving after lunch, more hoppers, fewer reservation no-shows, more annual passholders visiting, etc.)

I lean toward siding with #2, and believe it's a manifestation of guest behavior that Disney is unable to predict or control. Disney itself has said that Park Pass is giving them access to a new level of guest data.

The current Park Pass at least places a limit on the number of guests who can enter the park. Crowds will never be worse than a level set by Disney. It forces some guests to the parks which are projected to be under-utilized. If your MK cap is 50K and another 5K still want to visit, in theory everyone has a better day if you send the surplus to Epcot or AK instead of allowing MK attendance to rise to 55k.

If the next step is to create tiers at 2pm and 5pm, it has the potential to further balance crowds to everyone's benefit. But admittedly that's making a huge leap based upon these rumors.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I mean honestly I don't. I can see them doing this. I think they're going to more so "punish" local APs and APs staying offsite rather than those with a hotel stay. Chapek has said in the past that APs are not as valuable a guest as day guests so it's possible.

I do think having an option for a ticket where you can only enter at 4 pm isn't a bad idea. Other Disney parks such as the ones in Japan have tickets like this and they're half off from the regular full day ticket price. I'm waiting to see how that works for APs though, if the rumor is true.

The last AP I owned was the Epcot after 4 pass.
I would buy it again tomorrow if it was available.

 

[DL1WDW2]

Good job Disney … getting us all to focus on park capacity to the benefit of Disney financials… and ignoring other ways to improve park experience SUCH AS improving maintenance snice the attractions aren’t operating .
No fun standing in lines and the ride breaks down but Hey Park Capacity is functional With a Capital F