Walking “fix” implemented? Problems booking a high value Villa.

[BeachClub2014]

I was responding to Sandisw who mentioned using special season list or call in only for some rooms as a possible solution. I have not been a member when either of those are required.

The problem with bots is they would be targeting specific rooms, often with low inventory. You can go from the same chance as everyone else, say even only 10 or 20% chance for a room to less than 1% real quick. Either way they would be still hard to get, but your chances just got 10 to 20 times harder if anyone has successful bots that are quicker than a human at booking.

Yes. Well stated. This point often gets ignored or glossed over in these discussions.

I think we all understand how supply and demand work. If bots have been introduced into the equation, then it artificially tilts the opportunity to obtain one of these high-demand rooms in their favor.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I was responding to Sandisw who mentioned using special season list or call in only for some rooms as a possible solution. I have not been a member when either of those are required.

The problem with bots is they would be targeting specific rooms, often with low inventory. You can go from the same chance as everyone else, say even only 10 or 20% chance for a room to less than 1% real quick. Either way they would be still hard to get, but your chances just got 10 to 20 times harder if anyone has successful bots that are quicker than a human at booking.

Yes, except they have always been difficult to book even when there wasn't online booking an also when it started and I'm pretty sure nobody was using bots. So is there actually a new issue if the experience is similar? My thoughts are that as the years go on owners are also more informed on using their DVC and a number are more in the own where you want to stay category and book early to try and get what they want. So times that didn't have such difficulty way for availability, though they were popular even then, now book up more quickly than in the past.

 

[Tatebeck]

Yes, except they have always been difficult to book even when there wasn't online booking an also when it started and I'm pretty sure nobody was using bots. So is there actually a new issue if the experience is similar? My thoughts are that as the years go on owners are also more informed on using their DVC and a number are more in the own where you want to stay category and book early to try and get what they want. So times that didn't have such difficulty way for availability, though they were popular even then, now book up more quickly than in the past.

Yes, it matters. Just because they have always been hard to book doesn't make it ok for some owners to have an advantage over others. We are all supposed to have the same ability to book with a first come first serve system per the agreements. If there is something that takes the room out of inventory before the majority of the owners have a chance to try to book, then that is in violation of the agreements.

Would it hypothetically be ok for Disney to manually take out 90% of the tough bookings ahead of time for themselves with the points they hold to sell them as cash for a bigger profit knowing that those rooms are sought after? It wouldn't be ok even though they are always hard rooms to book.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Yes, it matters. Just because they have always been hard to book doesn't make it ok for some owners to have an advantage over others. We are all supposed to have the same ability to book with a first come first serve system per the agreements. If there is something that takes the room out of inventory before the majority of the owners have a chance to try to book, then that is in violation of the agreements.

Would it hypothetically be ok for Disney to manually take out 90% of the tough bookings ahead of time for themselves with the points they hold to sell them as cash for a bigger profit knowing that those rooms are sought after? It wouldn't be ok even though they are always hard rooms to book.

I am guessing that a lot of the people who are brushing off the “sophisticated commercial entities with dedicated tools like bots” as not a big deal either don’t understand how capable the tools are of beating out your average DVC member, even IT and Disney savvy members, or they are using such tools and benefitting. If people understood just how dramatic an advantage it can give, there would be more consternation.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, it matters. Just because they have always been hard to book doesn't make it ok for some owners to have an advantage over others. We are all supposed to have the same ability to book with a first come first serve system per the agreements. If there is something that takes the room out of inventory before the majority of the owners have a chance to try to book, then that is in violation of the agreements.

Would it hypothetically be ok for Disney to manually take out 90% of the tough bookings ahead of time for themselves with the points they hold to sell them as cash for a bigger profit knowing that those rooms are sought after? It wouldn't be ok even though they are always hard rooms to book.

First, DVC has to follow the same booking rules so they can’t book them ahead of time.

While I think it would be great for someone not to have figured out a way to use a bot, the system is still set up to only allow one reservation to be booked at a time.

I have tried that and I couldn’t do it..

But, let’s get into specifics when it comes to hard to get rooms.

How many AKV value rooms are there? 10, so a maximum of 20 owners get to stay a night.

How many points does AKV have? 7.3 million. Assume that the average number of points owned by each owner there is 200.

That means there would be just over 36,000 owners who are eligible to book those rooms every day.

Obviously, not every owner is booking every day because we know some travel days are more popular then others, but the success rate is so small that even if the owners using bots..which has to be pretty small…the difference is negligible.

Nothing DVC can ever do is going to be full proof.

Even the time when booking opens could be seen as an advantage to those who live in EST than those who don’t. Maybe not a huge one, but one none the less.

Comes back to the point that all DVC can do is make rules as best they can to even the playing field as best they can.

My only reason above for suggesting using the special seasons list was to show that DVC does have a remedy built in already that they could use, if AKV owners want, that prevents owners using bots from having a minuscule advantage.

I am sure there are owners using bots, but is there anything out there as to how many?

 

[Sandisw]

I am guessing that a lot of the people who are brushing off the “sophisticated commercial entities with dedicated tools like bots” as not a big deal either don’t understand how capable the tools are of beating out your average DVC member, even IT and Disney savvy members, or they are using such tools and benefitting. If people understood just how dramatic an advantage it can give, there would be more consternation.

Except we know that the average owner is getting hard to get rooms. Ones not using bots. So, they are not snagging all of them.

Let’s look at AKV value rooms again. Even when bots didn’t exist, and phone calls were required, they were hard to book.

So, its impossible to say that eliminating thee use of bots would dramatically increase odds for that type of room when we have proof that booking was just as hard when online booking and bots didn’t exist.

Maybe the solution for AKV owners or owners at other resorts with those hard to get rooms should ask DVC to consider is eliminating online booking for those rooms?

That certainly would work, wouldn’t it?

 

[Tatebeck]

First, DVC has to follow the same booking rules so they can’t book them ahead of time.

While I think it would be great for someone not to have figured out a way to use a bot, the system is still set up to only allow one reservation to be booked at a time.

I have tried that and I couldn’t do it..

But, let’s get into specifics when it comes to hard to get rooms.

How many AKV value rooms are there? 10, so a maximum of 20 owners get to stay a night.

How many points does AKV have? 7.3 million. Assume that the average number of points owned by each owner there is 200.

That means there would be just over 36,000 owners who are eligible to book those rooms every day.

Obviously, not every owner is booking every day because we know some travel days are more popular then others, but the success rate is so small that even if the owners using bots..which has to be pretty small…the difference is negligible.

Nothing DVC can ever do is going to be full proof.

Even the time when booking opens could be seen as an advantage to those who live in EST than those who don’t. Maybe not a huge one, but one none the less.

Comes back to the point that all DVC can do is make rules as best they can to even the playing field as best they can.

My only reason above for suggesting using the special seasons list was to show that DVC does have a remedy built in already that they could use, if AKV owners want, that prevents owners using bots from having a minuscule advantage.

I am sure there are owners using bots, but is there anything out there as to how many?

I know DVC has to follow the same rules, my point is that owners should have to follow the rules as well then shouldn't they? They are essentially taking the rooms out of inventory before the average person gets a chance.

And again, already being hard to book does not make it okay. If they started fixing the lottery so the same 10 people won all the time is that ok? It was hard to win before, so it's fine because you probably wouldn't win anyway? The difference is not negligible, it is just hard to see or understand unless you really think about it and look closely.

The point that there is only 10 rooms in the one you chose makes it a bit easier to explain. If there are only 10 bots being used each day, that means that those 10 users get the reservations almost every time, completely overriding the chances of the other 36,000 owners.

 

[Sandisw]

I know DVC has to follow the same rules, my point is that owners should have to follow the rules as well then shouldn't they? They are essentially taking the rooms out of inventory before the average person gets a chance.

And again, already being hard to book does not make it okay. If they started fixing the lottery so the same 10 people won all the time is that ok? It was hard to win before, so it's fine because you probably wouldn't win anyway? The difference is not negligible, it is just hard to see or understand unless you really think about it and look closely.

The point that there is only 10 rooms in the one you chose makes it a bit easier to explain. If there are only 10 bots being used each day, that means that those 10 users get the reservations almost every time, completely overriding the chances of the other 36,000 owners.

But no rule is going to play out the same way for ever owner and there is no way to account for every single potential situation

Again, you ignored the fact that when bots didn’t exist, and owners had to call, those rooms were hard to get.

Do you not think that phone connection time could have played a role in who connected the fastest?

So yes, someone who is using a bot could have a slight advantage over someone who is not? But, doesn't someone who has a computer or electronic device have an advantage over someone who does not and has to wait until 9 am to call MS?

What about the owner who is in the middle of their workday when the online booking window opens at 8 am? Are they not at a disadvantage over someone who isn't yet working at 8 am?

We can go round and round about it but the easiest solution to stop those using bots from snagging hard to get rooms, if owners of those resorts are concerned, is to eliminate online booking for them.

Would you be okay with that?

ETA: And, if the people using bots today are the brokers, they are not snagging all the rooms because we have proof the average owner is getting them, just on wht has been posted here.

 

[Chuck S]

Bots are not taking all the value or standard rooms at AKV. I offer as proof, the fact that I rented out a few of my points last year. I do not own at AKV, my points are all at OKW. One of the renters wanted a night in an AKV Standard View studio room, and I was able to book it for them with no issues at all. The night reserved was January 2, 2024. I booked the reservation in mid-June 2023.

 

[Tatebeck]

But no rule is going to play out the same way for ever owner and there is no way to account for every single potential situation

Again, you ignored the fact that when bots didn’t exist, and owners had to call, those rooms were hard to get.

Do you not think that phone connection time could have played a role in who connected the fastest?

So yes, someone who is using a bot could have an advantage over someone who is not? But, doesn't someone who has a computer or electronic device have an advantage over someone who does not and has to wait until 9 am to call MS?

What about the owner who is in the middle of their workday when the online booking window opens at 8 am? Are they not at a disadvantage over someone who isn't yet working at 8 am?

We can go round and round about it but the easiest solution to stop those using bots from snagging hard to get rooms, if owners have an issue, is eliminate online booking for them.

Would you be okay with that?

ETA: And, if the people using bots today are the brokers, they are not snagging all the rooms because we have proof the average owner is getting them, just on wht has been posted here.

Huh? I didn't ignore that they have always been hard to get. I mentioned that multiple times, it just doesn't really matter. Changes are harder to notice when the chances are already low. A success rate from 90% to 30% is 3 times less successful and is very noticeable. A success rate from 3% to 1% is effectively the same reduction in success rate. It's also 3 times less successful, but is much harder to notice because the average result stayed the same (the room usually being unavailable).

Internet speed, work schedule, etc are all things that us members can control. We all still have the same chance to book them. Something that takes rooms out of the system faster than a human can react would be a different problem, and against the rules. It's just not possible to consistently compete with that.

I would disagree that making them call only rooms would be the easiest solution to prevent bots. It would be modifying their online booking system to automatically be bot resistant or bot proof like I have already mentioned. But also personally I would be fine with call only reservations for a few booking categories in the future if booking continues to get harder and if it guarantees that I have the same chance as everyone else. Not everyone would want that though which makes fixing the online booking tool much more agreeable and feasible in my mind.

Bots are not taking all the value or standard rooms at AKV. I offer as proof, the fact that I rented out a few of my points last year. I do not own at AKV, my points are all at OKW. One of the renters wanted a night in an AKV Standard View studio room, and I was able to book it for them with no issues at all. The night reserved was January 2, 2024. I booked the reservation in mid-June 2023.

I didn't say that they ARE taking ALL of the rooms, I said they have the potential to take them all or a vast majority if not defended against. No one knows how many users or renters may be using bots because they don't really have a system to defend against it currently. I actually have a full week booked in a value studio myself, though it's in a higher point season and I had to pick up days multiple times as they were dropped by walkers who already had the reservation. It's annoying, but it's what you have to do currently. I have never been able to book one right at 8:00 thus far. I just want their security to help ensure that everyone has an equal chance to book at all times. I think that bot usage could increase over time if availability is squeezed as well. Just like any cool "hack" someone finds out about, it can be prone to abuse.

 

[Sandisw]

Huh? I didn't ignore that they have always been hard to get. I mentioned that multiple times, it just doesn't really matter. Changes are harder to notice when the chances are already low. A success rate from 90% to 30% is 3 times less successful and is very noticeable. A success rate from 3% to 1% is effectively the same reduction in success rate. It's also 3 times less successful, but is much harder to notice because the average result stayed the same (the room usually being unavailable).

Internet speed, work schedule, etc are all things that us members can control. We all still have the same chance to book them. Something that takes rooms out of the system faster than a human can react would be a different problem, and against the rules. It's just not possible to consistently compete with that.

I would disagree that making them call only rooms would be the easiest solution to prevent bots. It would be modifying their online booking system to automatically be bot resistant or bot proof like I have already mentioned. But also personally I would be fine with call only reservations for a few booking categories in the future if booking continues to get harder and if it guarantees that I have the same chance as everyone else. Not everyone would want that though which makes fixing the online booking tool much more agreeable and feasible in my mind.

I didn't say that they ARE taking ALL of the rooms, I said they have the potential to take them all or a vast majority if not defended against. No one knows how many users or renters may be using bots because they don't really have a system to defend against it currently. I actually have a full week booked in a value studio myself, though I had to pick up days as they were dropped by walkers who already had the reservation. I just want their security to help ensure that everyone has an equal chance to book at all times.

Are you saying that an owner who can’t afford an electronic device and has to call MS has that control?

And, no, not everyone has control of when they work. Those comments are simply your way of discounting them as valid reasons that it’s the same thing.

As long as online booking exists, there will be potential ways for some owners to have an advantage over others. Just because you feel bots is unfair, others may feel that opening at 8 am vs at 9 am when MS is also open is even more unfair.

And, to your point, if the rate of success rises from 1% to 3%, then is that a meaningful difference to change the system and make it harder for all owners who might lose out because they “failed” the captcha? Or the 2FA?

As I said, if there is a way to prevent bots, wonderful but not if it comes at the expense of making the booking harder or more complicated.

I expect, with the system we got, as a FCFS, that the ability to book is as close to “fair” as it can get, It will never be perfect and that is okay.

 

[Tatebeck]

Are you saying that an owner who can’t afford an electronic device and has to call MS has that control?

And, no, not everyone has control of when they work. Those comments are simply your way of discounting them as valid reasons that it’s the same thing.

As long as online booking exists, there will be potential ways for some owners to have an advantage over others. Just because you feel bots is unfair, others may feel that opening at 8 am vs at 9 am when MS is also open is even more unfair.

And, to your point, if the rate of success rises from 1% to 3%, then is that a meaningful difference to change the system and make it harder for all owners who might lose out because they “failed” the captcha? Or the 2FA?

As I said, if there is a way to prevent bots, wonderful but not if it comes at the expense of making the booking harder or more complicated.

I expect, with the system we got, as a FCFS, that the ability to book is as close to “fair” as it can get, It will never be perfect and that is okay.

Yes, if anyone bought a DVC contract at this point without having a computer, tablet, or smart phone, they should probably sort out their priorities. They are almost a necessity for so many things these days.

And bots are simply not the same thing as things that we as individuals can control. We as individuals can choose to buy a computer or smart phone, change jobs, get up early, move to a different time zone, etc. The options can be extremely expensive and some would be silly to do just for DVC booking but we as individuals have that choice.

There is not a single choice I am aware of that I can make to make my timing of the system faster than a computer program. It's just not possible. If a bot or program is making the reservation and not a live individual it is against the rules and should be prevented

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, if anyone bought a DVC contract at this point without having a computer, tablet, or smart phone, they should probably sort out their priorities. They are almost a necessity for so many things these days.

And bots are simply not the same thing as things that we as individuals can control. We as individuals can choose to buy a computer or smart phone, change jobs, get up early, move to a different time zone, etc. The options can be extremely expensive and some would be silly to do just for DVC booking but we as individuals have that choice.

There is not a single choice I am aware of that I can make to make my timing of the system faster than a computer program. It's just not possible. If a bot or program is making the reservation and not a live individual it is against the rules and should be prevented

The point is that we all can add qualified reasons that count as fair and not.

Just because you feel anyone without an electronic needs to rethink priorities means you are adding your own thinking to the situation.

The issue here is whether the invention of a bot to gain a a few millisecond needs to be stopped when in the overtscheme of things that millisecond only matters to owners trying to book the cheapest rooms at a few resorts.

And, whether you agree it’s not the same, if the end result is the same, it is.

Nothing will be perfect and DVC shouldn’t make it harder to book online for owners simply because there are a few rooms that owners are having trouble with because someone figured out a way to grab them a second faster.

 

[Tatebeck]

The point is that we all can add qualified reasons that count as fair and not.

Just because you feel anyone without an electronic needs to rethink priorities means you are adding your own thinking to the situation.

The issue here is whether the invention of a bot to gain a a few millisecond needs to be stopped when in the overtscheme of things that millisecond only matters to owners trying to book the cheapest rooms at a few resorts.

And, whether you agree it’s not the same, if the end result is the same, it is.

Nothing will be perfect and DVC shouldn’t make it harder to book online for owners simply because there are a few rooms that owners are having trouble with because someone figured out a way to grab them a second faster.

My thoughts aside, anyone is free to buy a dvc contract whether they have the devices to use the Internet or not. They are also free to get a device that will allow them to have the best chance possible to book, the same chance any owner is supposed to have.

That same person cannot do anything that will give them an edge or put them on the same level as a bot. They are not the same or similar situations. One is possible, one is literally impossible.

My main point is that the end result is NOT actually the same, it just may seem like it is because it was already hard to book. If it was a room that was usually always available but became popular and was suddenly almost impossible to book, it would be noticed more. Just because you can't easily see something doesn't mean it's not there.

For example, it took years before anyone believed that bacteria and viruses existed because they weren't noticable until we looked under a microscope, now millions of lives have been saved because of that. Now DVC is not life and death, and that is just a very extreme example how sometimes you have to look closer to notice something. Just because you feel like it doesn't matter now doesn't mean that it actually doesn't matter, or that it won't matter in the future if popular room types change, etc.

They wouldn't have to even make it harder for human bookers, just for bots or programs like I said earlier. If they will, who knows. But knowing enough about how scarce things can get when bots get involved, I hope they at least try something behind the scenes even something that doesn't make it harder to book anything but just tries to detect bots and send warnings etc

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Yes, it matters. Just because they have always been hard to book doesn't make it ok for some owners to have an advantage over others. We are all supposed to have the same ability to book with a first come first serve system per the agreements. If there is something that takes the room out of inventory before the majority of the owners have a chance to try to book, then that is in violation of the agreements.

Would it hypothetically be ok for Disney to manually take out 90% of the tough bookings ahead of time for themselves with the points they hold to sell them as cash for a bigger profit knowing that those rooms are sought after? It wouldn't be ok even though they are always hard rooms to book.

Except it isn't necessarily taking everything out. I know OP's experience was that way but for Feb (Princess marathon week etc) I "beat the bot" or at least everyone else with my own little computer in the dark because I'm west coast and have to do this at 5am vs later times for others. Do I think that's fair - my 5am requirement? Not really but it is what it is. Plus it was over Starlink which has lag. Still, I got the elusive 2BR standard view at BWV during a race week. This also was a competition against those just wanting standard view studios there since they are all lock offs. So what's that explanation if the Bots are making it unfair? I did have to pick some nights up as walkers walked past but not all of them and I booked 10 nights.

I am guessing that a lot of the people who are brushing off the “sophisticated commercial entities with dedicated tools like bots” as not a big deal either don’t understand how capable the tools are of beating out your average DVC member, even IT and Disney savvy members, or they are using such tools and benefitting. If people understood just how dramatic an advantage it can give, there would be more consternation.

Or maybe we do understand but have a different POV. If bots and scripts etc are being used and could be easily eliminated then ok although I don't know that they are technically against any defined rules? I haven't noted where anybody has said let the bots run amok if something can be done specifically against them. I do think most solutions such as restricting # of adjustments would create bad experiences for many owners and probably not bother the bot people a bit.

 

[Tatebeck]

Except it isn't necessarily taking everything out. I know OP's experience was that way but for Feb (Princess marathon week etc) I "beat the bot" or at least everyone else with my own little computer in the dark because I'm west coast and have to do this at 5am vs later times for others. Do I think that's fair - my 5am requirement? Not really but it is what it is. Plus it was over Starlink which has lag. Still, I got the elusive 2BR standard view at BWV during a race week. This also was a competition against those just wanting standard view studios there since they are all lock offs. So what's that explanation if the Bots are making it unfair? I did have to pick some nights up as walkers walked past but not all of them and I booked 10 nights.

Or maybe we do understand but have a different POV. If bots and scripts etc are being used and could be easily eliminated then ok although I don't know that they are technically against any defined rules? I haven't noted where anybody has said let the bots run amok if something can be done specifically against them. I do think most solutions such as restricting # of adjustments would create bad experiences for many owners and probably not bother the bot people a bit.

It doesn't have to "take everything out" for it to break the rules and be taken seriously like I said earlier. Is stealing ok as long as you leave at least 1 of each item and don't take them all? The explanation is you got lucky, and even then you had to get some days as they were dropped from walkers so the full stay wasn't available in the mornings when you would have ideally wanted it. I'm not sure anyone, even Disney, knows if there were bots that made those reservations for those bookings or just members, because there's no system for detecting then that I am aware of. That could turn into a bad thing.

I would think it's pretty clear that a bot or booking tool wouldn't be allowed. It clearly says that only members can make reservations either by phone or online. You are not allowed to share a password with a guest or friend for them to make their own reservation as only members are allowed to book. Sharing a password with a bot or outside program means it would no longer be the member booking the stay, and violates the home resort rules and regulations.


I am unaware of any computer program that bought a contract and signed up to be a dvc member lol

 

[Sandisw]

My thoughts aside, anyone is free to buy a dvc contract whether they have the devices to use the Internet or not. They are also free to get a device that will allow them to have the best chance possible to book, the same chance any owner is supposed to have.

That same person cannot do anything that will give them an edge or put them on the same level as a bot. They are not the same or similar situations. One is possible, one is literally impossible.

My main point is that the end result is NOT actually the same, it just may seem like it is because it was already hard to book. If it was a room that was usually always available but became popular and was suddenly almost impossible to book, it would be noticed more. Just because you can't easily see something doesn't mean it's not there.

For example, it took years before anyone believed that bacteria and viruses existed because they weren't noticable until we looked under a microscope, now millions of lives have been saved because of that. Now DVC is not life and death, and that is just a very extreme example how sometimes you have to look closer to notice something. Just because you feel like it doesn't matter now doesn't mean that it actually doesn't matter, or that it won't matter in the future if popular room types change, etc.

They wouldn't have to even make it harder for human bookers, just for bots or programs like I said earlier. If they will, who knows. But knowing enough about how scarce things can get when bots get involved, I hope they at least try something behind the scenes even something that doesn't make it harder to book anything but just tries to detect bots and send warnings etc

If someone not using a bot gets a room, including hard to book rooms, then either those using bots are not always winning, or they are not using them every day to snag hard to get rooms. And, as we know, plenty of non bot using owners are getting AKV value, CL, and BWV SV rooms daily.

Am I understanding that the reason you think its "fair" that those who own electronic devices get an hour advantage, is because all owners have the ability to purchase those things and its a choice not to?

If so, then can't owners go out and buy a bot software program or find a programmer to write them one to increase their chances? Might be a lot of money, and you might not want to do it, but if its available...which it has to be because you are saying they exist...then its "fair"...no different than the owner who doesn't pay for the internet and has to call.

Right now, 99% of the rooms are getting booked by everyday owners, whether bots are in play or not, and so far, I have never seen every room type gone, every day of the year, at 8 am, so no owner is getting shut out of their home resort.

Unfortunately, there is just no way for DVC to protect against every little nuiance that might give someone a miniscule advantage, and IMO, a bot program, while frustrating for those who feel they are being used to target specific rooms, is currently that.

Now, if there comes a day where someone has found a way to hack into the DVC system and force it to release rooms to them 30 minutes early, then yes, DVC needs to do something about it. But, if the system releases rooms at 8:00 am on the dot, and someone has a way to be the "first in line" then they win....its the nature of DVC.

Good discussion! We just don't see it the same way.

ETA: Remember, I am all for DVC doing something to prevent this, if they can, as long as it doesn't require authentication that can introduce more "human error" to the process...

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

It doesn't have to "take everything out" for it to break the rules and be taken seriously like I said earlier. Is stealing ok as long as you leave at least 1 of each item and don't take them all? The explanation is you got lucky, and even then you had to get some days as they were dropped from walkers so the full stay wasn't available in the mornings when you would have ideally wanted it. I'm not sure anyone, even Disney, knows if there were bots that made those reservations for those bookings or just members, because there's no system for detecting then that I am aware of. That could turn into a bad thing.

I would think it's pretty clear that a bot or booking tool wouldn't be allowed. It clearly says that only members can make reservations either by phone or online. You are not allowed to share a password with a guest or friend for them to make their own reservation as only members are allowed to book. Sharing a password with a bot or outside program means it would no longer be the member booking the stay, and violates the home resort rules and regulations.


I am unaware of any computer program that bought a contract and signed up to be a dvc member lol

The argument begins failing when it turns to it being luck. Eh, had I been more on with it on the day I needed to start booking I'd likely not had to pick up anything after the fact. But yes, it's always been luck to be the member getting some of these rooms as the demand far outweighs the supply for the specialty and the cheap rooms. That's the bit about 1st come 1st served.
Don't discount that there are rooms taken out of the inventory by people arriving even a day earlier. I've always recognized and accepted that the flexibility means you don't always get what you want.

I am curious on your knowledge that the brokers are booking on behalf of other owners in order to rent? That's incredibly unwise of owners to provide that info to them but then back in the day they used to add David as an associate on their accounts so people aren't always as careful with credentials as they ought to be.

 

[Tatebeck]

The argument begins failing when it turns to it being luck. Eh, had I been more on with it on the day I needed to start booking I'd likely not had to pick up anything after the fact. But yes, it's always been luck to be the member getting some of these rooms as the demand far outweighs the supply for the specialty and the cheap rooms. That's the bit about 1st come 1st served.
Don't discount that there are rooms taken out of the inventory by people arriving even a day earlier. I've always recognized and accepted that the flexibility means you don't always get what you want.

I am curious on your knowledge that the brokers are booking on behalf of other owners in order to rent? That's incredibly unwise of owners to provide that info to them but then back in the day they used to add David as an associate on their accounts so people aren't always as careful with credentials as they ought to be.

I was simply looking at the list of rules. I'm not saying I personally know people who give their password to guests to book. I'm just saying the rules forbid it

 

[Tatebeck]

If someone not using a bot gets a room, including hard to book rooms, then either those using bots are not always winning, or they are not using them every day to snag hard to get rooms. And, as we know, plenty of non bot using owners are getting AKV value, CL, and BWV SV rooms daily.

Am I understanding that the reason you think its "fair" that those who own electronic devices get an hour advantage, is because all owners have the ability to purchase those things and its a choice not to?

If so, then can't owners go out and buy a bot software program or find a programmer to write them one to increase their chances? Might be a lot of money, and you might not want to do it, but if its available...which it has to be because you are saying they exist...then its "fair"...no different than the owner who doesn't pay for the internet and has to call.

Right now, 99% of the rooms are getting booked by everyday owners, whether bots are in play or not, and so far, I have never seen every room type gone, every day of the year, at 8 am, so no owner is getting shut out of their home resort.

Unfortunately, there is just no way for DVC to protect against every little nuiance that might give someone a miniscule advantage, and IMO, a bot program, while frustrating for those who feel they are being used to target specific rooms, is currently that.

Now, if there comes a day where someone has found a way to hack into the DVC system and force it to release rooms to them 30 minutes early, then yes, DVC needs to do something about it. But, if the system releases rooms at 8:00 am on the dot, and someone has a way to be the "first in line" then they win....its the nature of DVC.

Good discussion! We just don't see it the same way.

ETA: Remember, I am all for DVC doing something to prevent this, if they can, as long as it doesn't require authentication that can introduce more "human error" to the process...

I also enjoy thought experiments and discussions like these.

In regards to the first bolded portion of your comment, yes that is how I see it.

In regards to the second part, there is a difference in buying a product that lets you book 100% according to the rules and buying a product that lets you book while violating those rules to gain an advantage. It's like buying stock tips from a financial advisor vs paying someone for some insider trading info. Both people would be buying stocks on the market but one would have an unfair advantage