VIP Fastpass question

[doconeill]

I just came back from WDW
I was next in line to ride the dinosaur ride that look like Dumbo in Animal Kingdom.
All of a sudden, a little girl passed through the rope off area and flashed her card. She was all smiles along with her mom and dad. The cast member did exactly what you said above.
Her and family immediately went on the ride.

I asked the cast member why were they able to get on the ride so fast? He told me... but sadly,
I am very hard of hearing and I did not hear what he said. I do know, he said, it was not a regular fast past, it was something different.
Maybe it was a VIP fast past

It looked similar to a large white laminated index card.

Other times, I seen large groups of people getting a head of the line. I don't know if these people had fast passes or not.

I wish Disney would stop giving out fast passes.
Most of the time the FP booths were out early.
The wait in line was so long because of people using their fast passes or the "get to the head of the line" passes.

I believe the wait in line would go by much faster if there were no fast passes.

I don't live near WDW and my time there is valuable. I hate wasting time standing in line and have people cut in front.

Sorry if, I sound grumpy tonight.
During our trip it was so cold.. I think it had record cold one or two nights. It was rainy, freezing cold, and very windy. We did not get a chance to do much of the parks because of the weather. We stayed in the room to stay warm.
Just wish we had more time to see the parks without having to stand in long cold lines.

There are a few different schools of thought, but you have to remember - someone using a Fastpass isn't really cutting in line. They were actually there, ahead of you anyways. They just had their place saved in line electronically. In fact, they even let people pass them by deferring their place in line until a later time.

Think of it this way - if there was no Fastpass, they would have gotten in line then and there. They would have waited, rode the attraction, and that was that. They would have been in front of you anyways.

Now with Fastpass, they can say, "You know what? I don't need to get in line right away...I'll ride it later." They take a Fastpass, where the return time is (very rarely not) later than it would be if they got in line now, and return later. Everyone else that got in the line anyways gets to ride that much sooner since these people didn't get in line.

At the end, it is a zero-sum game. Far more boring details here:

Why using a late FASTPASS doesn't matter!

In the end, the lines are not shorter time-wise, although they are physically. And that can be deceiving - ESPECIALLY when you can visibly see someone fly past you and get on the ride before you, with the perception that they are slowing you down.

As for the so-called "VIP Fastpasses", Disney takes them into consideration as well. This girl probably had a GAC card, or the GKTW pass I mentioned before. There is no purchasable VIP Fastpass (although the Premium VIP tour does allow for some level of FOTL access as well, but it requires the guide to be present). I did, however, notice a large number of tours such as Keys To The Kingdom - however I do NOT believe they actually get access to the rides (I could be wrong about that though - I only saw them outside the attractions), and maybe one or two VIP tours (which are groups of no more than 10).

 

[ILOVECAMPING]

doconeill,
Thanks for the info

When we arrived at TSM the wait time was 100 minutes. I thought the clock must be wrong.. LOL
The line was stretched outside.
I had never rode the ride before and I had no idea how long the queue line would be once inside the building.
Well, it has a long winding queue inside.
When we finally got near the boarding area,
There was a HUGE group of people coming through the fast pass area. We had to wait until they all boarded.
This added more time to the wait time listed.
So to me, it did seem longer than my expected wait.

Do you know how many Fast Passes are given out during the same time frame?

The FP booth was out of passes when we arrived before noon.

 

[doconeill]

doconeill,
Thanks for the info

When we arrived at TSM the wait time was 100 minutes. The line was stretched outside.
I had never rode the ride before and I had no idea how long the queue line would be once inside the building.
Well, it has a long winding queue inside.
When we finally got near the boarding area,
There was a HUGE group of people coming through the fast pass area. We had to wait until they all boarded.
This added more time to the wait time listed.
So to me, it did seem longer than my expected wait.

Do you know how many Fast Passes are given out during the same time frame?

The FP booth was out of passes when we arrived before noon.

I don't know how many FPs specifically are given out, but I DO know that they actually reduced the number given out recently (which results them running out even sooner) to compensate for recent changes that has made loading slightly slower. It is generally some percentage of the total load rate of the attraction. Even then, they can hold the FP line and let some of the Standby line through. We waited briefly a couple of weeks ago.

A "huge group" could have been one that had all gotten FPs at the same time, or it could have just been coincidence of several groups arriving at the same time to use their FPs.

TSM is a weird one - it is one of the few attractions that didn't exist before FP, so it is difficult to say how it would be without FP at all, but you could generally expect that the standby wait would be just as long if not slightly longer if FP didn't exist or wasn't in use with the same park crowd size. TSM is both hugely popular AND a slow loader (i.e. people per hour is low compared to some others).

 

[jen_eck]

If it was a red pass it was for a family that is visiting from Make A Wish or Give Kids the World. Typicially the pass is good for the whole family....which makes sense.

 

[doconeill]

The GKTW passes at least used to be green.

GAC cards are largish and beige with a red border and printing.

Not sure what MAW kids get.

 

[DSquare]

I breifly skimmed over the Fastpass thread before but it really went nowhere. Someone can explain till they are blue in the face but I will never accept that the Fastpasses don't affect queue times. The way I see it if someone is getting a Fastpass for a ride and then goes on another ride that it doubles his/her attendance in the park. They have a virtual person in the line they got the Fastpass from and a 'real' person in for the other ride.
For example take DHS, you run in and get a Fastpass for Rock n Roller coaster and then run over and stand in line for Tower of Terror. You are essentially taking up two different spots in two different lines.

 

[doconeill]

There IS that effect. Some percentage of FP takers may enter another attraction's standby line, and there will be some minor effect there. How much effect? Don't know, as we don't have actual statistics. But it doesn't seem to be hugely significant as the general average wait times of the attractions to not appear to have gone up at all since the introduction of Fastpass.

 

[tjkraz]

TSM is a weird one - it is one of the few attractions that didn't exist before FP, so it is difficult to say how it would be without FP at all, but you could generally expect that the standby wait would be just as long if not slightly longer if FP didn't exist or wasn't in use with the same park crowd size. TSM is both hugely popular AND a slow loader (i.e. people per hour is low compared to some others).

Not sure I agree with that.

If we assume that FastPass users have an average wait time of 5 minutes and the average standby wait is 55-60 minutes, the average wait with no FastPass should be somewhere in the middle. Probably 30 minutes or so. That's also assuming that the number of guests are roughly split between FP and Standby.

If FP users weren't getting that priority treatment, the Standby line would be moving much faster.

I have a sort of love/hate relationship with FP. There are times when we spend so much time cris-crossing parks to get FP tickets that I know we would be better off if it were not offered at all. Consider Buzz Lightyear, which typically has a wait time of 20-30 minutes. Without FP the waits would be around 10 minutes all day long.

Toy Story Mania at Disney's California Adventure has never had FastPass. Typical waits are around 30-40 minutes. I'll grant that FP means many people can ride with a much lower wait at Walt Disney World, but you also have to be in the park to get a FP by 11am or you risk missing out.

 

[doconeill]

Not sure I agree with that.

If we assume that FastPass users have an average wait time of 5 minutes and the average standby wait is 55-60 minutes, the average wait with no FastPass should be somewhere in the middle. Probably 30 minutes or so. That's also assuming that the number of guests are roughly split between FP and Standby.

I'm really not sure why you think that. The wait time if there was no Fastpass would not be an average between the two numbers at all. For starters, Fastpass users are a percentage of the total capacity of the ride. I've heard some numbers of up to 50% on some attractions, but I have a lot of doubts about it being near that. So even if it were to have something to do with averaging the numbers, they would have to be weighted accordingly.

But it isn't a factor of the Fastpass wait time at all (which is supposed to be effectively zero anyways) or an average. Remember - Fastpass DOES NOT INCREASE THE TOTAL CAPACITY OF THE ATTRACTION. If you make the assumption that a person who takes a FP would otherwise ride the attraction if there was no FP, then they'd be in that line. Even with that Fastpass, they are "virtually" waiting in line - in fact, they are going to wait longer under normal circumstances as the FP return time is typically further out than the standby wait time. And by taking that "penalty" wait for taking the Fastpass, others in the standby line actually get through slightly sooner.

The most obvious variable that may come into play is what percentage of guests would not ride AT ALL, if there was no Fastpass option, with a significant wait time posted.

Wait times will ALWAYS be a function of how many people want to ride, Fastpass or not.

If FP users weren't getting that priority treatment, the Standby line would be moving much faster.

True - it would be moving faster. But it would also be longer since without Fastpass more people would be in it. What Fastpass really did for the Standby line is make it shorter in length. A 90+ wait at Splash Mountain used to take up most of the courtyard outside. Now it is barely visible - but it is still a 90 minute wait.

 

[tjkraz]

I'm really not sure why you think that. The wait time if there was no Fastpass would not be an average between the two numbers at all. For starters, Fastpass users are a percentage of the total capacity of the ride. I've heard some numbers of up to 50% on some attractions, but I have a lot of doubts about it being near that. So even if it were to have something to do with averaging the numbers, they would have to be weighted accordingly.

I agree with that. We don't know the ratio between FP and Standby but I still contend that total wait time would be a weighted average.

But it isn't a factor of the Fastpass wait time at all (which is supposed to be effectively zero anyways) or an average. Remember - Fastpass DOES NOT INCREASE THE TOTAL CAPACITY OF THE ATTRACTION. If you make the assumption that a person who takes a FP would otherwise ride the attraction if there was no FP, then they'd be in that line. Even with that Fastpass, they are "virtually" waiting in line - in fact, they are going to wait longer under normal circumstances as the FP return time is typically further out than the standby wait time. And by taking that "penalty" wait for taking the Fastpass, others in the standby line actually get through slightly sooner.

Don't agree with your logic here. Read on.

The most obvious variable that may come into play is what percentage of guests would not ride AT ALL, if there was no Fastpass option, with a significant wait time posted.

Wait times will ALWAYS be a function of how many people want to ride, Fastpass or not.

I agree we can't really quantify this element.

True - it would be moving faster. But it would also be longer since without Fastpass more people would be in it. What Fastpass really did for the Standby line is make it shorter in length. A 90+ wait at Splash Mountain used to take up most of the courtyard outside. Now it is barely visible - but it is still a 90 minute wait.

Here is where I believe you are miscalculating (bold.)

Fastpass is a virtual wait system. It allows guests to effectively wait in two lines at once.

Without FastPass, guests will only be able to wait in one line at a time. Psychological impacts will vary from one guest to the next but I don't see any reason to believe that lines would grow dramatically since guests are only queuing for one attraction at a time.

The most simplistic example would be something like BTMR and Splash Mountain at the Magic Kingdom. With FastPass, 40-50 minute standby times are commonplace. An often-used approach is to get a FP for one attraction and go standby for the other. Because you are waiting 40+ minutes for one and close to zero time for the other, the net outcome is that you've gone on two rides in about an hour.

Without FP, your wait time would be split between the two attractions. Yes you would spend more time in the line for one, but less time for the other.

As you say, the guest throughput cannot change. So assuming nearly identical demand for an attraction, really all you are doing is changing the manner in which wait time is redistributed. BTMR still services the same number of guests--lack of FP would simply balance the zero wait FastPass people with the 50-minute wait folks.

Further, I'll grant that with FP there are more sensible ways to attack many attractions. Some guests will FP both BTMR and Splash. But consider:

1. While waiting for the FP times to arrive, most people will be going on other attractions. So the mere existence of FP at select attractions has the trickle down impact of increasing longer lines elsewhere, including the standby lines of FP rides. It all goes back to the idea that FP allows you to wait in two lines at a time. Without FP, every single guest in the park queues for one ride at a time. Lines will almost certainly be longer, but they will move as much as twice as fast since throughput isn't being split between FP and Standby.

2. In order to employ liberal use of FP, most guests will add a lot of walking to their trip. Grab a FP for BTMR, walk back to Pirates. Get a Splash FP, walk to Haunted Mansion. Effectively, you're spending less time in (often boring) queue lines, but there is still substantial non-productive time.

Don't get me wrong...I wouldn't call myself an opponent of FastPass. Those who use it liberally will certainly have an advantage over the uneducated. But it seems very clear to me that wait times would be shorter than the current Standby trends if FP were removed. Additionally we've sacrificed an element of spontaneity due to FastPass, particularly at attractions like Soarin and Toy Story Mania which are extremely unpalatable unless you structure your day around obtaining FastPasses.

 

[doconeill]

Here is where I believe you are miscalculating (bold.)

Fastpass is a virtual wait system. It allows guests to effectively wait in two lines at once.

Although this is possible, it isn't done by everyone, and again we don't know the percentages so we can't calculate it.

But also, given a person who grabs a Fastpass for one attraction and then goes and waits in another line, don't forget that they've actually deferred their virtual place in the first line significantly beyond where they would be if they had gotten in the standby line (in normal situations, the FP return time is later than the standby wait time). So while they aren't taking up their place in the physical line, everyone else in the physical line is benefiting - more so if that person uses their FP later than the return window. So while this person had a negative effect on ride B, they had a positive effect on ride A.

And it is generally accepted that the attractions that existed prior to FP did not see a significant increase in wait times when FP was introduced. If they affected things the way you say, they should have increased 20-50%.

Beyond that...we can agree to disagree. It's a moot discussion anyways...FP is here, it's not going anywhere, and we won't see which of us was right

TSM and Soarin' are just unfortunate cases, being both extremely popular AND not having any peer attractions at their locations. TSM is worse because the load rate is so low compared to others.

And as for comparing TSM between DHS and CA, I don't consider it apples-apples. DHS gets about 50% more guests, and has less comparable attractions IMO to dilute the guests.

 

[ILOVECAMPING]

With fastpass the queue lines can be deceiving.

Since the fastpass holder is virtually waiting in line.
You can not see them until they actually arrive.
So there is no telling how much longer you have to wait.

With the use of FP,
The standby line may look short but in reality it is not because there are some "Virtual invisible FP people" who are in the queue line also.

So, they are in this line (invisible) while occupying another line somewhere else or physically in the same line while waiting for their second or third ride FP time.
Right? Is this what you are saying Doc?

So, if I am unable to get a fastpass because they are all out, I have to use the standby line.
I don't think it is fair that some can get FP's and some cannot.
I still think it would be much better without fastpasses. That way, you can know exactly how long your wait time will be. And I do believe the wait time would go by faster without the fastpasses.

 

[doconeill]

So, they are in this line (invisible) while occupying another line somewhere else or physically in the same line while waiting for their second or third ride FP time.
Right? Is this what you are saying Doc?

They are certainly somewhere...whether they are in another line or not depends on how they are using their time. Not everyone runs to another line. We don't. We are eating, checking out lesser known things, "smelling the roses" so to speak, etc.

So, if I am unable to get a fastpass because they are all out, I have to use the standby line.
I don't think it is fair that some can get FP's and some cannot.
I still think it would be much better without fastpasses. That way, you can know exactly how long your wait time will be. And I do believe the wait time would go by faster without the fastpasses.

Now we are getting into the fairness discussion, even further off topic...

As for knowing what your wait will be, it is still posted. Barring major malfunctions, its still pretty accurate, at least for the bulk of the day (mornings, post-parades and close to closing are when they tend to fluctuate the most)

 

[tjkraz]

But also, given a person who grabs a Fastpass for one attraction and then goes and waits in another line, don't forget that they've actually deferred their virtual place in the first line significantly beyond where they would be if they had gotten in the standby line (in normal situations, the FP return time is later than the standby wait time). So while they aren't taking up their place in the physical line, everyone else in the physical line is benefiting - more so if that person uses their FP later than the return window. So while this person had a negative effect on ride B, they had a positive effect on ride A.

And that's exactly why the non-FP wait times would be some sort of weighted average. To use your word, yes the person did defer their ride time for one attraction. But at the same time they were allowed to increase lines on other attractions.

And it is generally accepted that the attractions that existed prior to FP did not see a significant increase in wait times when FP was introduced. If they affected things the way you say, they should have increased 20-50%.

FP has been around for over 10 years now so I'm not sure what sort of data is available to back that up. I've never heard many discussions of "generally accepted" wait times from pre-FastPass.

Meanwhile, Disney has also streamlined guest handling procedures on many attractions. Ride vehicles are loaded quicker and there are even instances where they hold more guests than in the past.

Beyond that...we can agree to disagree. It's a moot discussion anyways...FP is here, it's not going anywhere, and we won't see which of us was right

I doubt they will remove it from most current attractions but it's pretty obvious that Disney is re-thinking how FP is being implemented. Several high profile attractions have opened in recent years without FastPass--TSM in California and the Finding Nemo subs come to mind. FP has also been removed from many attractions because it was deemed unnecessary.

In fact, that is the crux of my argument here. Take one attraction in particular--Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin. With standby times running around 20-30 minutes, there really is no reason for FP on that attraction. Without FP, standby times would be a very manageable 10-15 minutes all day long. It's a fast-loading omnimover ride which doesn't need FastPass any more than Spaceship Earth or Haunted Mansion.

TSM and Soarin' are just unfortunate cases, being both extremely popular AND not having any peer attractions at their locations. TSM is worse because the load rate is so low compared to others.

And as for comparing TSM between DHS and CA, I don't consider it apples-apples. DHS gets about 50% more guests, and has less comparable attractions IMO to dilute the guests.

Raw attendance numbers don't tell us anything about demand for a single attraction. Demand for CA TSM could well be higher than in Florida if a greater ratio of the daily park guests have the desire to ride the attraction.

Like I said, I'm not a FP hater. It definitely has its psychological advantages--at least if you're standing in the FP line rather than the Standby line. But FP certainly isn't a magical way to get more guests on an attraction in a single day. Simple mathematics tells us that without FP, wait times would be some weighted average of the current Standby times.

 

[doconeill]

I doubt they will remove it from most current attractions but it's pretty obvious that Disney is re-thinking how FP is being implemented. Several high profile attractions have opened in recent years without FastPass--TSM in California and the Finding Nemo subs come to mind. FP has also been removed from many attractions because it was deemed unnecessary.

I've never been to CA, so I don't know specifics, but I do know that the Nemo subs are horribly slow loading. Putting Fastpass on a slow loading attraction gets us into the situation we have with TSM at DHS - they run out fast, AND the wait times are longer due to the popularity.

I don't know if there are physical differences with TSM at CA that might make it a faster loader or anything like that as well.

But also, I know that at one point the man in charge of the Anaheim parks despised Fastpass was looking to remove it permanently, so it isn't used as much there.

In fact, that is the crux of my argument here. Take one attraction in particular--Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin. With standby times running around 20-30 minutes, there really is no reason for FP on that attraction. Without FP, standby times would be a very manageable 10-15 minutes all day long. It's a fast-loading omnimover ride which doesn't need FastPass any more than Spaceship Earth or Haunted Mansion.

True - there are a number of attractions now that have FP that don't really need it any more. But I seriously do not believe that the times would be cut in half regardless. I will accept the possibility that the "two line effect" could mean that they would reduce slightly, but I also firmly believe that that is already balanced out by the fact that they deferred their entry in the first place by taking the FP.

Raw attendance numbers don't tell us anything about demand for a single attraction. Demand for CA TSM could well be higher than in Florida if a greater ratio of the daily park guests have the desire to ride the attraction.

They definitely have some effect because the guests have to go somewhere. CA has more desirable attractions within that park that not everyone is trying to get on TSM - heck, it's got Soarin' as well - the two attractions in all of WDW that command the "get a FP at open or wait" touring plan. DHS has roughly 10 million guests a year, with just TSM being appropriate for pretty much every guest (and desirability - of course there is the Great Movie Ride as well, but ridership on that seems to have crashed in recent years). CA gets somewhere around 6.5-6.9 million guests, but has TSM, Soarin', Monsters, Inc., the Mickey Wheel, etc.

Another potential factor that makes comparing WDW and Anaheim tough - Anaheim has a FAR greater percentage of locals who attend regularly, and who do not necessarily need to do an attraction every time they visit, whereas WDW has a far greater percentage of first-timers/occasional/trip of a lifetime guests for whom doing all the attractions is important.

I think we've said enough on the subject...

 

[ChrisFL]

Ooh another FP discussion!

I'm just going to state a few things and then let it go (hopefully)

First...there are a LOT of variables involved when determining if the lines for FP attractions in the standby are "worse" than before.

I believe that they can be, and this is because Disney in general does not enforce the time past the 2 hour time frame to be there for an attraction...

In other words, if you're in the Standby Line for Tower of Terror at 6PM , and 200 guests who got FP's in the morning decide to take their ride now, right before going to Fantasmic, no matter what time earlier they were SUPPOSED to return, they can get in, ahead of you..making the standby wait time potentially much longer than it would have been right before those 200 people joined.

That is an extreme example, obviously, but it is entirely possible with the way FP works currently.

I'm not saying Disney should enforce the FP time after the 2 hours, but maybe they should make the return time a 3 hour window AND then enforce the return time...that way it will make up for any "unforseen" circumstances the guests have if they can't return in the old 2 hour window.

 

[doconeill]

I believe that they can be, and this is because Disney in general does not enforce the time past the 2 hour time frame to be there for an attraction...

In other words, if you're in the Standby Line for Tower of Terror at 6PM , and 200 guests who got FP's in the morning decide to take their ride now, right before going to Fantasmic, no matter what time earlier they were SUPPOSED to return, they can get in, ahead of you..making the standby wait time potentially much longer than it would have been right before those 200 people joined..

I'll address this briefly - far more detailed answer here.

Yes, your wait time would be longer than the wait time that was posted (if it was accurate to begin with). However, the time you would have gotten on the ride would would have been the same anyways as those 200 people would have ridden before you if they had shown up earlier. However, before they showed up everyone that got in before them actually got on sooner.

It makes more sense if you don't think of the posted wait times as terribly meaningful, and instead think of what time of day you would actually get onto the ride based on everyone in front of you, both virtually and physically.

 

[seashoreCM]

Why would anyone object to someone else's occupying spots in two lines at the same time? (Having fetched a fastpass for one ride and standing in the standby line of a different ride)

When you (or I or anyone else) come up to a ride and join the standby line, all that counts is the number of people, virtual and actual, in that one line.

 

[doconeill]

Why would anyone object to someone else's occupying spots in two lines at the same time? (Having fetched a fastpass for one ride and standing in the standby line of a different ride)

When you (or I or anyone else) come up to a ride and join the standby line, all that counts is the number of people, virtual and actual, in that one line.

By occupying "two" lines, it does in a sense increase the total number of guests that the attractions need to accommodate. If all of the attractions in which people occupy the standby line while holding a FP were popular (100% utilization), then that could have an adverse effect. But I believe a good percentage of such people are hitting the lesser attractions that are seldom 100% utilized (saving the majors for FP), and not having much of an effect at all. Or not hitting anything and instead having lunch, etc.

 

[perdidochas]

I just came back from WDW
I was next in line to ride the dinosaur ride that look like Dumbo in Animal Kingdom.
All of a sudden, a little girl passed through the rope off area and flashed her card. She was all smiles along with her mom and dad. The cast member did exactly what you said above.
Her and family immediately went on the ride.

I asked the cast member why were they able to get on the ride so fast? He told me... but sadly,
I am very hard of hearing and I did not hear what he said. I do know, he said, it was not a regular fast past, it was something different.
Maybe it was a VIP fast past

It looked similar to a large white laminated index card.

Other times, I seen large groups of people getting a head of the line. I don't know if these people had fast passes or not.

I wish Disney would stop giving out fast passes.
Most of the time the FP booths were out early.
The wait in line was so long because of people using their fast passes or the "get to the head of the line" passes.

I believe the wait in line would go by much faster if there were no fast passes.

I don't live near WDW and my time there is valuable. I hate wasting time standing in line and have people cut in front.

Sorry if, I sound grumpy tonight.
During our trip it was so cold.. I think it had record cold one or two nights. It was rainy, freezing cold, and very windy. We did not get a chance to do much of the parks because of the weather. We stayed in the room to stay warm.
Just wish we had more time to see the parks without having to stand in long cold lines.

Having been to Disney pre and post Fast Passes, I disagree. The Fast passes make things better. Why? People waiting on a FastPass are going to other rides, instead of waiting in line clogging it up. This may all be psychological, but I do think the FPs have improved the overall park dynamics. Now, the Universal Express Pass does make things slower. Why? No waiting for them (just paying for them), like with the Disney FP.

What I really hate are the people who actually cut in front (without any kind of pass). We were waiting in line at IOA last week, and a family of 5 (two parents and three kids) came to join their relatives (family of 7) who were in front of us. We had already waited an hour, and these five people just get in front of us.