Valedictorian/Salutatorian?

[MrsPete]

I know all districts are different, but in ours, the top students would never take a free period - most take zero period, and skip lunch, to get the most classes in. Dd14 will take zero period this year, and from here on, and if she gets into a class she auditioned into, she will no longer have a lunch period.

I'm not familiar with the term "zero period", but I don't think having no lunch period is a good idea at all. This is high school. Why give them a schedule sure to lead to burn-out?

A number of our top students DO choose to take a free period. Sometimes this is because they're taking three AP classes (it takes a pretty outstanding student to do more than three APs), sometimes it's because they're working/saving for college, sometimes it's because they're taking a community college course. But they do choose it.

Our val/sal do not speak at graduation. They speak at the academic awards banquet for the underclassmen, are listed in the program and are giving special recognition at the all-school academic awards program. The class speaker applies to speak and is chosen by committee--which is MUCH better because you get someone that is a good speaker that way . If the Val from DS18's class had to talk, everyone would have been asleep in 5 minutes. There are various sashes/medals/honor cords/tassels that the kids get to recognize their academic achievements and they are all listed in the program.

We do the same thing, and it's been a good change. The val/sal may not be good speakers and may not WANT to speak. Any senior may apply to speak at graduation. They must write a speech and present it to a committee of teachers. The teachers have a rubric with which they grade the speeches, and -- in theory -- any graduate could end up being a speaker. In reality, the speakers are always students in perhaps the top 10%.

I'm the new National Honor Society moderator for my school for next year. I had a meeting with the outgoing moderator the other day and I'm just getting my feet wet at this point in the process.

As I understand it, the rules are:
- an average of 85.0 (84.9 does NOT round up!)
- a minimum of 2 school activities/sports
- in my school, it's fewer than 10 demerits. I'm not sure how that translates to other schools.

Our kids don't write an essay or do anything of the sort. Later in the summer I'll get a computer generated list of the kids who meet those three criteria; those are the kids who will be inducted into the NHS in the fall.

My point is that, as I understand it, it's very black and white. Either there was en error or your daughter didn't meet one of the criteria for admission.

I understand where you're coming from. GPA is purely numbers. Honor societies have other requirements. For example, our school requires X number of service hours per semester. Some kids who have the grades aren't in honor society because they don't want to do the service hours. Also, kids can be kicked out for various things. For example, a student -- not even one of my students -- told me a lie that escalated (you know how these things go). I reported him to the advisor, had witnesses to the original lie, and he was put on probation from the honor society. Foolishly, he did something else, and he was kicked out. It's more than just grades.

 

[MrsPete]

This is so much healthier than naming number 1 or 2 in a class in which 50 or so kids are essentially "A" students and have GPAs above 4.5. It takes lots of jockeying and giving up the opportunity to take some of the good electives to be in the top 5. My own kid is an "A" student who is into theater and music -- I expect he'll graduate somewhere around #20. He would be a much higher if he had taken weighted classes instead of four theater and two chorus classes. The student who was #1 in my middle son's class -- a young woman I adore -- is in graduate school in the arts, but she didn't take any arts in high school b/c it would have meant sacrificing #1.

Yeah, that's what I call "playing the numbers". Like your theater/chorus kid, my daughter's GPA has suffered because she's very into the Allied Health vocational classes. She's taken one every year, and next year as a senior she'll do a double-period class at the hospital. I am certain that these classes are a benefit for any student heading for any career in the medical field. She's picked up so much vocabulary, understands so much about the body and diseases, and by the time she's graduated she'll have a CNA 1 license. When she enters college as a nursing major, I'm going to feel very sure that she's chosen her major well and will be less likely to change (or, after her hospital class next year, she'll decide that it's not really for her, which will throw us for a loop . . . but if that's going to happen, I'd rather it happen BEFORE college).

Recently I recommended this class to a friend whose daughter's interests are similar to my daughter's, and she poo-pooed the class, saying that she doesn't want her daughter to be JUST a CNA. Yeah, well, my daughter's sites are set a bit higher too, but this is a high school START. It'll allow her to get a college job in her field, and -- in time -- she will rise far above the CNA rank.

Anyway, back to the topic . . . those classes, which aren't honors or AP, have kept her GPA lower than it could've been (it's still over a 4.0 and she's in the top 10%, so I'm quite satsified). If we'd "played the numbers game", we'd have discouraged her from taking these classes . . . and I personally think she wouldn't leave high school as well prepared. These classes are much more valuable for her than Spanish 5 or Advanced Calculus.

I had never heard of the multiple valedictorian thing until I read the DIS.

Me neither, and it just doesn't make sense. Multiple students can be honors students, but only ONE can be #1 -- even if it is only by a hundredth of a point. If you're going to use the terms val/sal, they should reflect the truth. Who is actually #1 and #1.

 

[Disney Daniel]

The top students at our HS are taking all of the most advanced courses! I can't imagine them only taking one or two.

To be honest, here in Nova Scotia (not sure about the rest of Canada) there is not a big stress on AP courses and I am not even sure if you can get them anywhere. Some schools offer an IB program, but it is not something that people would travel any great distance to participate in most times.

Our school offered maybe two or three "advanced" courses for each year but that was about it, although it doesn't seem to impact anything overall in our case. Of the top ten students or so off the top of my head we have people just about to complete medical school, engineers, teachers, pharmacists, accountants, MBA's, etc. so the lack of advanced courses didn't seem to hurt in terms of career potential. Not to say they are not valuable, however we are doing fine without them.

 

[golfgal]

I was adviser to NHS for a couple years. What I learned was this. Avoid getting sued.

Become familiar with the national charter. What you list here looks like something your local chapter has put into place. Scholarship, Service, Leadership, and Character are supposed to be all weighted equally. I once checked to see how many of our students qualified academically (our cut off was 85% as well) an it was over a third of the student body. What that meant was that the person ranked 68th in the class got the same consideration as the person ranked first. I created a numeric formula which worked for awhile, but when the parents complain, the administration folds, and you as the adviser are left to pick up the pieces.

We polled the entire faculty on the issues of leadership, character and service. If there were a character issue, ie, plagiarism, you had to be willing to document and put your name to it. Not many teachers were. As adviser, I caught one student cutting school, and he was issued a warning (his parents were friends of mine) and another who received out of school suspension and was arrested for a fight in school. He was removed and no one fussed. Academic dishonesty won't get you kicked out at our school. I posted a thread about that earlier this year.

Now that I've hijacked my own post.....

We are still trying to figure out how our school does NHS 4 girls we know very well all got into NHS this year, DS16 did not. These 4 specific girls take NO honors/AP classes, DS16 had 3 AP classes, the rest where honor's classes because they didn't offer AP for those classes. They are involved in NOTHING, DS16 is in marching band, knowledge bowl, quiz bowl, jazz band and golf. Two of these girls do NOTHING outside of school, they don't go to church, they aren't in any organisations, etc. DS is active in our church, youth group, was in boy scouts, etc. . We talked to the parents of a couple of his friends who are equally involved/academically rigerous, etc. and THEY didn't get in either. We did notice a disproportionate number of girls/boys on the list . All we know is that you have to have a 3.75 or better to get a letter to apply--after that, it's a mystery.

 

[disykat]

My son got a B+ sophmore year, so was out of the running for val/sal. I think he also got an A- one semester. He had staight A's otherwise, but was ranked #14. I'm guessing there were probably 20 or more kids (220 in his class) that had above a 3.9 with at least 9 AP's. Like another poster, I can't imagine any of the top tier academic kids taking a free period. Most are trying to take as many AP classes as possible. Here, 5 (or 6) AP's is the amount of AP classes most of the top tier academic kids take during their senior year, not total. You would be out of the val/sal running without at least 10. My son took 12 and my younger son, who is smart but not top tier, plans on taking 8.

Our school is jokingly called "school name" university.

I can't imagine not allowing people into honor society! Here, if you meet the grade point requirement, attend the required amount of meetings, and document the required amount of community service hours, you're in. It's not a particularly large group because of students not completing the meeting and community service requirements, but it's open to everyone who qualifies.

 

[agnes!]

I'm the new National Honor Society moderator for my school for next year. I had a meeting with the outgoing moderator the other day and I'm just getting my feet wet at this point in the process.

As I understand it, the rules are:
- an average of 85.0 (84.9 does NOT round up!)
- a minimum of 2 school activities/sports
- in my school, it's fewer than 10 demerits. I'm not sure how that translates to other schools.

Our kids don't write an essay or do anything of the sort. Later in the summer I'll get a computer generated list of the kids who meet those three criteria; those are the kids who will be inducted into the NHS in the fall.

My point is that, as I understand it, it's very black and white. Either there was en error or your daughter didn't meet one of the criteria for admission.

I was adviser to NHS for a couple years. What I learned was this. Avoid getting sued.

Become familiar with the national charter. What you list here looks like something your local chapter has put into place. Scholarship, Service, Leadership, and Character are supposed to be all weighted equally. I once checked to see how many of our students qualified academically (our cut off was 85% as well) an it was over a third of the student body. What that meant was that the person ranked 68th in the class got the same consideration as the person ranked first. I created a numeric formula which worked for awhile, but when the parents complain, the administration folds, and you as the adviser are left to pick up the pieces.

We polled the entire faculty on the issues of leadership, character and service. If there were a character issue, ie, plagiarism, you had to be willing to document and put your name to it. Not many teachers were. As adviser, I caught one student cutting school, and he was issued a warning (his parents were friends of mine) and another who received out of school suspension and was arrested for a fight in school. He was removed and no one fussed. Academic dishonesty won't get you kicked out at our school. I posted a thread about that earlier this year.

Now that I've hijacked my own post.....

I'm not familiar with the term "zero period", but I don't think having no lunch period is a good idea at all. This is high school. Why give them a schedule sure to lead to burn-out?

A number of our top students DO choose to take a free period. Sometimes this is because they're taking three AP classes (it takes a pretty outstanding student to do more than three APs), sometimes it's because they're working/saving for college, sometimes it's because they're taking a community college course. But they do choose it. We do the same thing, and it's been a good change. The val/sal may not be good speakers and may not WANT to speak. Any senior may apply to speak at graduation. They must write a speech and present it to a committee of teachers. The teachers have a rubric with which they grade the speeches, and -- in theory -- any graduate could end up being a speaker. In reality, the speakers are always students in perhaps the top 10%.I understand where you're coming from. GPA is purely numbers. Honor societies have other requirements. For example, our school requires X number of service hours per semester. Some kids who have the grades aren't in honor society because they don't want to do the service hours. Also, kids can be kicked out for various things. For example, a student -- not even one of my students -- told me a lie that escalated (you know how these things go). I reported him to the advisor, had witnesses to the original lie, and he was put on probation from the honor society. Foolishly, he did something else, and he was kicked out. It's more than just grades.

We are still trying to figure out how our school does NHS 4 girls we know very well all got into NHS this year, DS16 did not. These 4 specific girls take NO honors/AP classes, DS16 had 3 AP classes, the rest where honor's classes because they didn't offer AP for those classes. They are involved in NOTHING, DS16 is in marching band, knowledge bowl, quiz bowl, jazz band and golf. Two of these girls do NOTHING outside of school, they don't go to church, they aren't in any organisations, etc. DS is active in our church, youth group, was in boy scouts, etc. . We talked to the parents of a couple of his friends who are equally involved/academically rigerous, etc. and THEY didn't get in either. We did notice a disproportionate number of girls/boys on the list . All we know is that you have to have a 3.75 or better to get a letter to apply--after that, it's a mystery.

At DD's school the year she applied, in my opinion and in the opinion of others in the community it was a popularity contest. These were DD's stats that year:
4+ GPA, all Honors courses(freshmen weren't allowed to take APs, so this was her sophomore year), volunteer hours/community service, no demerits/perfect school behavior record, in Honors Choirs (I'm sure I'm forgetting something).
The way kids were chosen was supposedly changed in succeeding years, but by then DD truly didn't give a fig about getting in. She'd gotten too busy with Science Olympiad, mentoring new AP students, taking her AP classes, getting into TV Production and so on.

The chapter did invite her to apply again when she was a Senior, but our chapter required student-written essays/teacher recommendations/additional paperwork (this would have been in addition to all the paperwork that Seniors generate) and she just didn't want to do it. And I didn't blame her one bit.

agnes!

 

[ctinct]

Heh, here's a really funny one for you MrsPete... My DD, the kid with the 4.3+ GPA, the kid who took 7 AP classes over her HS career, who scored on the first three (haven't gotten this year's back yet) with 4s & 5s, who had straight As with one B+ on a HS math class she took in 8th grade, who was wearing a language Honor Society cord at graduation?
Yeah, *that* kid...was turned down for National Honor Society. Yep, guess they didn't like her essay or whatever..she got so mad about it she refused to ever re-apply. I do know of one acquaintance of hers that same year whose parents got upset about their kid being turned down that they fought it and that kid did make it in. The parents wrote a long letter to central administration detailing all the issues that year (too many to go into here), they basically said they thought the procedure was corrupt and unfair

agnes!

Similar situation in our school. I don't know the criteria for NHS in our school, but the #3 student was not in it. It kind of boggled my mind. Geesh. I know, I know, maybe she did not participate in any other ativities, but I don't think some of the other kids, who did make it, were very involved either. This girl was not a trouble maker or anything like that. She won several scholarships on honors night, but she was not inducted into the honor society.

And, I'm still bitter about my own experience with the NHS 40 years ago. I was in the top ten, participated in several clubs and organizations, and was a commended PSAT student. I wasn't in the National Honor Society. Why? Apparently the advisor mostly nominated her own students.

 

[mjkacmom]

I'm the new National Honor Society moderator for my school for next year. I had a meeting with the outgoing moderator the other day and I'm just getting my feet wet at this point in the process.

As I understand it, the rules are:
- an average of 85.0 (84.9 does NOT round up!)
- a minimum of 2 school activities/sports
- in my school, it's fewer than 10 demerits. I'm not sure how that translates to other schools.

Our kids don't write an essay or do anything of the sort. Later in the summer I'll get a computer generated list of the kids who meet those three criteria; those are the kids who will be inducted into the NHS in the fall.

My point is that, as I understand it, it's very black and white. Either there was en error or your daughter didn't meet one of the criteria for admission.

In our system, an 85 is a C! for NHS, 93 or better, and at least 2 clubs.

 

[arminnie]

I always thought v and s were simply the two people with the highest grade point. I went to a big high school (almost 700 in my class) so I wasn't upset about being 4th instead of 1st in my class. I took a bunch of extra math and science courses as a sophomore and in summer school that were not allowed to be honors so that kept my gradepoint slightly lower than those who had not accelerated things like I did. My SAT scores were tons better than theirs, but I never resented that I didn't get the top honor.

 

[Andtototoo]

Our school does not have valedictorian or salutatorian. There are 20+ kids with 4.0 GPAs and the school does not recognize anything above a 4.0. So technically we have 20 valedictorians. Instead, the students select two speakers -- one opens the graduation and one does the farewell speech. In addition, the class president also does a speech.

In so far as NHS -- dd had no problem getting in. The requirements did include an essay. However, she did have a problem getting her NHS scarf for graduation. She graduated early in January, but since there is no ceremony, participated in the June ceremony. Although she had to get in the NHS line for her diploma (with the NHS seal), they refused to give her the scarf for the ceremony since she had graduated early. They also gave her the wrong color cord at the ceremony -- indicating she only had honors and not highest honors. Again, punished for graduating early. So much for the "honor" part of the National Honor Society.

 

[ccgirl]

Do your schools still have them? Many of the local schools have gotten away from these because they aren't necessarily an accurate measure of achievement/accomplishment.

Just curious, how is the highest and second highest GPA not necessarily an accurate measure of achievement/accomplishment? You may have already said that somewhere and I didn't notice.

To answer your questoin; no, my DDs school does not have them. They don't do the student of the month or any of those either. They have a policy that they "honor all of their students." While I think that is very sweet, it is just not how the real world operates.

 

[disykat]

Just curious, how is the highest and second highest GPA not necessarily an accurate measure of achievement/accomplishment?

Because different classes require different skill level.

 

[golfgal]

Just curious, how is the highest and second highest GPA not necessarily an accurate measure of achievement/accomplishment? You may have already said that somewhere and I didn't notice.

To answer your questoin; no, my DDs school does not have them. They don't do the student of the month or any of those either. They have a policy that they "honor all of their students." While I think that is very sweet, it is just not how the real world operates.

DD's best friend takes the general level courses. In the lit course, for example, they read ONE book each trimester, along with other coursework, in the AP lit class our twins took, they read 14 books this year-so 4-5 books/trimester along with other course work. Tell me which "A" "means" more in the academic sense. That is why just a GPA isn't an accurate measure of academic achievement.

 

[Pinkpony]

My son got a B+ sophmore year, so was out of the running for val/sal. I think he also got an A- one semester. He had staight A's otherwise, but was ranked #14. I'm guessing there were probably 20 or more kids (220 in his class) that had above a 3.9 with at least 9 AP's. Like another poster, I can't imagine any of the top tier academic kids taking a free period. Most are trying to take as many AP classes as possible. Here, 5 (or 6) AP's is the amount of AP classes most of the top tier academic kids take during their senior year, not total. You would be out of the val/sal running without at least 10. My son took 12 and my younger son, who is smart but not top tier, plans on taking 8.

Our school is jokingly called "school name" university.

I can't imagine not allowing people into honor society! Here, if you meet the grade point requirement, attend the required amount of meetings, and document the required amount of community service hours, you're in. It's not a particularly large group because of students not completing the meeting and community service requirements, but it's open to everyone who qualifies.

The minimum requirement is 5 AP classes; I don't know all the kids' academic standings in their class, but both of mine took more than the requirement. There certainly could have been a few that only took 5. But what the school is trying to achieve is to keep the "slackers" out of the running for it and to create more well-rounded students, and yet not make it a death march to be a val/sal among the very top students. We have class rankings to fulfill that goal. They change the requirements every couple of years and are still tinkering with it, from what I've heard.

NHS is a totally different beast at our school. It's not a sought-after club to be in because so many qualify to be in it. In fact, mine quit after their soph. year.

 

[ccgirl]

Because different classes require different skill level.

DD's best friend takes the general level courses. In the lit course, for example, they read ONE book each trimester, along with other coursework, in the AP lit class our twins took, they read 14 books this year-so 4-5 books/trimester along with other course work. Tell me which "A" "means" more in the academic sense. That is why just a GPA isn't an accurate measure of academic achievement.

In our H.S. classes were weighted by difficulty. For example, although an A was an A in both basic math and AP math, the AP math was more difficult; therefore, weighted more in the GPA. So, you could tell which "A" "meant" more in the academic sense.

 

[The Pink Cupcake]

DD's best friend takes the general level courses. In the lit course, for example, they read ONE book each trimester, along with other coursework, in the AP lit class our twins took, they read 14 books this year-so 4-5 books/trimester along with other course work. Tell me which "A" "means" more in the academic sense. That is why just a GPA isn't an accurate measure of academic achievement.

That is why grades MUST be weighted.

It kills me that many schools still don't weight grades

 

[The Pink Cupcake]

In our H.S. classes were weighted by difficulty. For example, although an A was an A in both basic math and AP math, the AP math was more difficult; therefore, weighted more in the GPA. So, you could tell which "A" "meant" more in the academic sense.

 

[jrmasm]

In our H.S. classes were weighted by difficulty. For example, although an A was an A in both basic math and AP math, the AP math was more difficult; therefore, weighted more in the GPA. So, you could tell which "A" "meant" more in the academic sense.

Classes should be weighted and first is first. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CJMickeyMouse]

Our high school still has V and S. The problem is, students avoid the more challenging/difficult classes to protect their GPA. I am encouraged to see some of the schools adopting a more thorough evaluation tool in addition to, or instead of, just GPA.

 

[Cinderella94]

My old high school (just graduated) has valedictorian and salutatorian. Based solely on GPA.

Do not even get me started on our NHS. It should be very objective- meet the criteria, you're in. That is not the case at all.