Valedictorian/Salutatorian?

[tlbwriter]

Our schools aren't doing away with them - in fact, I read an article a few years ago that said some schools are actually having multiple valedectorians because they get an automatic scholarship at state universities.

And I don't remember our valedictorian's speech at all. I do remember the speech given by the class president.

 

[ashley0139]

My high school had them, and when I graduated in 2006 the valedictorian had over a 4.7 GPA and the salutatorian something very close to that. It was a huge thing in our school, a very very academic high school. AP classes were weighted at a 5.0, honors and regular at a 4.0. Extra curricular activities did not count at all toward GPA. Academics only. Out of a class of 650, we only did have one valedictorian and one salutatorian. I've never even heard of them having more than one.

 

[ols386]

When I graduated we had valedictorian and saluditorian, and I think it was stricly based on GPA.

 

[mjkacmom]

I was the salutatorian for my graduating class in 2004. All of the advanced/non-advanced course grades were lumped together, but no one really complained as it seemed that most of the students that would have been in the running for the top five positions were taking at least one or two of the advanced courses..

The top students at our HS are taking all of the most advanced courses! I can't imagine them only taking one or two. And I'm very surprised that, for the past 2 years, the top students here were not Asian (because a lot of the Asian population here has a great respect for education). Honors classes should be weighted.

 

[cruisnfamily]

I was so disappointed this year when my dd graduated that the valedictorian and salutatorian were not recognized. The speakers were chosen from students who auditioned to speak not necessarily the top students. The top 10 students did walk in rank order so we knew who was first but not one word was said, no recognition given whatsoever.

I would be disappointed, too. The whole speech thing is about earning the privilege by being the top students. It should be assumed that a kid who can maintain an almost-perfect GPA knows enough about life to speak about it! (Congrats to your DD, by the way!)

Just wanted to clarify....my dd would not have been either val or sal...far from it, lol! She was ranked 114 out of 475 kids. I just felt bad as I did know the young man who was valedictorian and felt that he should have been recognized for his hard work.

 

[kamik86]

I agree that calculating val. and sal. is messy in the schools with all the ranks. As I said before I was ok with it in my school even with some honors classes but it was much simpler. You took Honors Algebra or Algebra, there weren't really electives to worry about, etc.

My middle school did awards by class. This way more people could get them. I had the highest average is history class. I know the person that got the highest in English would not have been near the top if they ranked everything together due to math and science grades.

 

[LukenDC]

I was the salutatorian for my high school class (class of 1991). At that time, valedictorian and salutatorian were awarded strictly on grades.

A few years after I graduated, my California school district debated whether or not to keep the valedictorian and salutatorian honors. At the heart of the debate was the issue of socioeconomic status. Students from wealthy families were attending summer school at elite universities (Harvard, Stanford) in order to be better prepared for AP classes the following academic year. They also had access to private tutors. Perhaps most worrying in the eyes of the District were wealthy parents who hired lawyers to advocate for their children in the selection process for valedictorian and salutatorian.

Then there was the argument that students were taking too many AP courses and the competition was becoming cutthroat.

Ultimately the school district decided to add SAT scores as a deciding factor for the valedictorian and salutatorian honors. That always struck me as odd since students can enhance SAT scores through expensive private tutoring, which flies in the face of the socioeconomic argument that was supposedly a key factor for the debate.

I came from a lower middle class family and went to college on 100% financial aid, so I'm proof that students can achieve the honor without resorting to over-the-top expenditures, gaming the system, and legal action. I believe that valedictorian and salutatorian are still important honors. In an educational system that often appears to value athletic ability over intellectual ability, those honors give hard working students something to work towards.

 

[MrsPete]

Our high school did away with this not too long ago, and I have mixed feelings on it:

First and foremost, the competition inspired by the race for val/sal is often NOT a healthy competition. Instead of inspiring students to take difficult classes and do their best, it often encourages students to "play the numbers game". Here's an example: You're a top-notch senior, and you'd really like to take a couple difficult academic classes . . . and you've always wanted to take an art class just for fun. So you choose those AP classes, but then you consider that the art class -- just a regular class, no extra GPA points -- even if you earn a grade of 100, will bring down your GPA. So instead you take another honors class or you take a free period. This happens ALL THE TIME, but it isn't in the student's best interest. Taking that art class, theater class, yearbook, journalism, weight lifting, whatever special interest will make that student a better-rounded person -- we should encourage that rather than discouraging it.

On the other hand, in the real world, someone will be #1 and someone else will be disappointed. Some people will say we should model this in high school, while others will say that high school isn't yet the real world and that shouldn't matter. In my mind, the biggest deal here is that the difference between #1 and #10 is about one-hundredth of a point. Is that a significant difference?

And in my long experience teaching, the people who are literally #1 and #1 in GPA are usually NOT the best students (no offense to the people who've said they were sals -- this is a generalization). Often the top-top kids are highly skilled cheaters. This was true in my own graduating class; the girl who was #1 stayed after school for yearbook purposes, and the yearbook teacher foolishly allowed her to go into the teacher workroom, where she stole tests from the copier (it was the old-fashioned kind that left a "negative" in the machine -- some of the younger readers won't have any idea what I'm talking about). In my daughter's upcoming senior class, the kid who is genuinely smartest, most well-rounded, most likely to succeed, and most academic is ranked around #10 -- because he doesn't play the numbers game and because he is unflinchingly honest.

I was in on a small meeting -- a graduation planning meeting -- when the principal told us that we would no longer have val/sal. All of us were shocked and expressed our discontent. Although it was very unlike him, he shut us down, saying that this one was HIS choice. HE was the one who had to deal with the parents who were upset, etc., etc., etc.

 

[MrsPete]

I would be disappointed, too. The whole speech thing is about earning the privilege by being the top students. It should be assumed that a kid who can maintain an almost-perfect GPA knows enough about life to speak about it! (Congrats to your DD, by the way!)

Keep in mind, though, that in a big school LOTS of students will have an almost-perfect GPA. A fairly large number of kids are good students who have good support from home, and they perform exceedingly well in school. My own daughter has made only one "B" in high school, and she's ranked #36. So 35 students have never made a "B". In a class of 400 or so, that's going to happen.

Also, these kids ARE recognized -- just not as val/sal. In our school, the top students wear honors cords of varying colors denoting their status (and these are noted in the program). Also, the top students are designated as National Honor Society members. The beauty of this is that the number of students who can be recognized for a 4.xx GPA and the number of people who can be honor society members is unlimited. So perhaps this year we'll have a strong class with 50 people being honored; perhaps next year'll be a weaker academic group and only 40 will earn those rewards. Anyway, their efforts are not going unnoticed.

 

[agnes!]

I was so disappointed this year when my dd graduated that the valedictorian and salutatorian were not recognized. The speakers were chosen from students who auditioned to speak not necessarily the top students. The top 10 students did walk in rank order so we knew who was first but not one word was said, no recognition given whatsoever.

Our school figures the val & sal this way:

Val - Anyone with all A's that has taken at least 5 AP classes.

Sal - Anyone with all A's, except for one B, that has taken at least 5 AP classes.

It seems likes a fair way to handle it. It's stressful enough trying to attain straight A's without worrying about whether someone else was able to sign up for one more AP class than you.

Out of 550 students, we had 8 vals and 2 sals. Proud to say two of the vals were mine.

Class rank is handled differently. It's based on a weighted GPA. There were a few students ranked a little higher than some of the vals and sals due to the extreme number of AP classes they took.

Our local high school doesn't have valedictorians or salutatorians. They did recognize all the seniors who had a 4.0 GPA or above at graduation, the kids walked separately as "Honors" graduates, got their names announced and received a medal, then went back and got into alphabetical order to get their diplomas (DD did have 5 extra seals on her diploma from all the academics).
Oh and our school doesn't do class rank either. And in a way, I think it sucks because some colleges/organizations do give out scholarships based on class rank and/or being valedictorian. And what's even funnier is I KNOW that the school system knows EXACTLY where the students rank in terms of their GPA...the administrators just don't release that information publicly.

agnes!

 

[mjkacmom]

So instead you take another honors class or you take a free period. This happens ALL THE TIME, but it isn't in the student's best interest..

I know all districts are different, but in ours, the top students would never take a free period - most take zero period, and skip lunch, to get the most classes in. Dd14 will take zero period this year, and from here on, and if she gets into a class she auditioned into, she will no longer have a lunch period.

 

[agnes!]

Keep in mind, though, that in a big school LOTS of students will have an almost-perfect GPA. A fairly large number of kids are good students who have good support from home, and they perform exceedingly well in school. My own daughter has made only one "B" in high school, and she's ranked #36. So 35 students have never made a "B". In a class of 400 or so, that's going to happen.

Also, these kids ARE recognized -- just not as val/sal. In our school, the top students wear honors cords of varying colors denoting their status (and these are noted in the program). Also, the top students are designated as National Honor Society members. The beauty of this is that the number of students who can be recognized for a 4.xx GPA and the number of people who can be honor society members is unlimited. So perhaps this year we'll have a strong class with 50 people being honored; perhaps next year'll be a weaker academic group and only 40 will earn those rewards. Anyway, their efforts are not going unnoticed.

Heh, here's a really funny one for you MrsPete... My DD, the kid with the 4.3+ GPA, the kid who took 7 AP classes over her HS career, who scored on the first three (haven't gotten this year's back yet) with 4s & 5s, who had straight As with one B+ on a HS math class she took in 8th grade, who was wearing a language Honor Society cord at graduation?
Yeah, *that* kid...was turned down for National Honor Society. Yep, guess they didn't like her essay or whatever..she got so mad about it she refused to ever re-apply. I do know of one acquaintance of hers that same year whose parents got upset about their kid being turned down that they fought it and that kid did make it in. The parents wrote a long letter to central administration detailing all the issues that year (too many to go into here), they basically said they thought the procedure was corrupt and unfair

agnes!

 

[golfgal]

Our val/sal do not speak at graduation. They speak at the academic awards banquet for the underclassmen, are listed in the program and are giving special recognition at the all-school academic awards program. The class speaker applies to speak and is chosen by committee--which is MUCH better because you get someone that is a good speaker that way . If the Val from DS18's class had to talk, everyone would have been asleep in 5 minutes. There are various sashes/medals/honor cords/tassels that the kids get to recognize their academic achievements and they are all listed in the program.

 

[Planogirl]

Our schools still have valedictorians and salutorians and they even spoke at graduation but the highest honors are truly the scholarships. Most of the top scholarships are handed out to just a handful of students. We were at the ceremonies and the same names kept coming up over and over again.

 

[Pinkpony]

Our high school did away with this not too long ago, and I have mixed feelings on it:

First and foremost, the competition inspired by the race for val/sal is often NOT a healthy competition. Instead of inspiring students to take difficult classes and do their best, it often encourages students to "play the numbers game". Here's an example: You're a top-notch senior, and you'd really like to take a couple difficult academic classes . . . and you've always wanted to take an art class just for fun. So you choose those AP classes, but then you consider that the art class -- just a regular class, no extra GPA points -- even if you earn a grade of 100, will bring down your GPA. So instead you take another honors class or you take a free period. This happens ALL THE TIME, but it isn't in the student's best interest. Taking that art class, theater class, yearbook, journalism, weight lifting, whatever special interest will make that student a better-rounded person -- we should encourage that rather than discouraging it. On the other hand, in the real world, someone will be #1 and someone else will be disappointed. Some people will say we should model this in high school, while others will say that high school isn't yet the real world and that shouldn't matter. In my mind, the biggest deal here is that the difference between #1 and #10 is about one-hundredth of a point. Is that a significant difference?

And in my long experience teaching, the people who are literally #1 and #1 in GPA are usually NOT the best students (no offense to the people who've said they were sals -- this is a generalization). Often the top-top kids are highly skilled cheaters. This was true in my own graduating class; the girl who was #1 stayed after school for yearbook purposes, and the yearbook teacher foolishly allowed her to go into the teacher workroom, where she stole tests from the copier (it was the old-fashioned kind that left a "negative" in the machine -- some of the younger readers won't have any idea what I'm talking about). In my daughter's upcoming senior class, the kid who is genuinely smartest, most well-rounded, most likely to succeed, and most academic is ranked around #10 -- because he doesn't play the numbers game and because he is unflinchingly honest.

I was in on a small meeting -- a graduation planning meeting -- when the principal told us that we would no longer have val/sal. All of us were shocked and expressed our discontent. Although it was very unlike him, he shut us down, saying that this one was HIS choice. HE was the one who had to deal with the parents who were upset, etc., etc., etc.

I couldn't agree more with the bolded part. That is why I like the way our school calculates it. It enabled one of my sons to take three marketing classes in high school, which he truly enjoyed but did not have AP classes available in it, yet still had enough room in his schedule to fulfill the val/sal requirements of taking at least 5 AP classes total. The result was that even though both of my boys were vals, one was ranked significantly higher than the other. However, they were both offered the same type of scholarships at the universities they applied to because those were based on ACT/SAT scores and GPA and not their class rank or val/sal status. Our state schools give out a small token scholarship for val, not even enough to get excited about.

 

[Aliceacc]

Heh, here's a really funny one for you MrsPete... My DD, the kid with the 4.3+ GPA, the kid who took 7 AP classes over her HS career, who scored on the first three (haven't gotten this year's back yet) with 4s & 5s, who had straight As with one B+ on a HS math class she took in 8th grade, who was wearing a language Honor Society cord at graduation?
Yeah, *that* kid...was turned down for National Honor Society. Yep, guess they didn't like her essay or whatever..she got so mad about it she refused to ever re-apply. I do know of one acquaintance of hers that same year whose parents got upset about their kid being turned down that they fought it and that kid did make it in. The parents wrote a long letter to central administration detailing all the issues that year (too many to go into here), they basically said they thought the procedure was corrupt and unfair

agnes!

I'm the new National Honor Society moderator for my school for next year. I had a meeting with the outgoing moderator the other day and I'm just getting my feet wet at this point in the process.

As I understand it, the rules are:
- an average of 85.0 (84.9 does NOT round up!)
- a minimum of 2 school activities/sports
- in my school, it's fewer than 10 demerits. I'm not sure how that translates to other schools.

Our kids don't write an essay or do anything of the sort. Later in the summer I'll get a computer generated list of the kids who meet those three criteria; those are the kids who will be inducted into the NHS in the fall.

My point is that, as I understand it, it's very black and white. Either there was en error or your daughter didn't meet one of the criteria for admission.

 

[Doofenshmirtz513]

It's fascinating to see how differently schools from different areas handle this situation. At my HS, val/sal was strictly GPA, with weighted grades for honors (but not AP?!) classes (although most senior honors classes were AP). I was the sal.

Oddly, the pressure seemed to be much more on the teachers, some of whom were afraid to disrupt the order of things by giving any of the top students less than an A. The order pretty much fell into place by midway through soph year and didn't change.

I'll also add that our val was absolutely one of the 5 smartest people in our class and the only person I've known personally who went to med school that I would ever let touch me or my family.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I would be in favor of getting rid of these positions, or at least not doing them the way my school did. It was entirely based upon GPA, and not weighted for AP classes (we didn't have honors in my high school, just harder classes with no specific designation). My graduating class had 3 valedictorians and 1 salutatorian. Only one of them took all the available AP classes. Coincidentally, it was this same one person who had a couple extra-curriculars to add to her resume (the others didn't do much of anything outside school, at least, not anything they were recognized for). She should have been the sole "valedictorian" and I would have had no problem with that. However, the others didn't deserve it at all. I remember seeing one (with her mom present) crying to our physics teacher because he had given her a less than perfect grade and it marred her perfect score. Yeah, the same guy gave me a bad grade too, I asked him about extra credit and then did it to bring my grade up. As someone who had the 8th ranked GPA in her class, took the full load of AP classes and "advanced" classes, took independent study science courses, and had a boat-load of extra-curriculars, I took offense that these slackers and crybabies got to give speeches at graduation and all I got were some pretty gold cords and medals. Oh, and most of their speeches were terrible too.

Bitter? Perhaps. But it's a really poor system.

 

[disney junky]

I'm the new National Honor Society moderator for my school for next year. I had a meeting with the outgoing moderator the other day and I'm just getting my feet wet at this point in the process.

As I understand it, the rules are:
- an average of 85.0 (84.9 does NOT round up!)
- a minimum of 2 school activities/sports
- in my school, it's fewer than 10 demerits. I'm not sure how that translates to other schools.

Our kids don't write an essay or do anything of the sort. Later in the summer I'll get a computer generated list of the kids who meet those three criteria; those are the kids who will be inducted into the NHS in the fall.

My point is that, as I understand it, it's very black and white. Either there was en error or your daughter didn't meet one of the criteria for admission.

I was adviser to NHS for a couple years. What I learned was this. Avoid getting sued.

Become familiar with the national charter. What you list here looks like something your local chapter has put into place. Scholarship, Service, Leadership, and Character are supposed to be all weighted equally. I once checked to see how many of our students qualified academically (our cut off was 85% as well) an it was over a third of the student body. What that meant was that the person ranked 68th in the class got the same consideration as the person ranked first. I created a numeric formula which worked for awhile, but when the parents complain, the administration folds, and you as the adviser are left to pick up the pieces.

We polled the entire faculty on the issues of leadership, character and service. If there were a character issue, ie, plagiarism, you had to be willing to document and put your name to it. Not many teachers were. As adviser, I caught one student cutting school, and he was issued a warning (his parents were friends of mine) and another who received out of school suspension and was arrested for a fight in school. He was removed and no one fussed. Academic dishonesty won't get you kicked out at our school. I posted a thread about that earlier this year.

Now that I've hijacked my own post.....

 

[tar heel]

At our school, we have three "honors" ranks that are designated by cords with the cap and gown and in the program. The summa cum laudes also process first (at least I assume they do -- they did when my last kid graduated). There also are cords/stoles for Beta Club and a couple of other honor societies. Some kids graduate wearing a bunch of stuff!

This is so much healthier than naming number 1 or 2 in a class in which 50 or so kids are essentially "A" students and have GPAs above 4.5. It takes lots of jockeying and giving up the opportunity to take some of the good electives to be in the top 5. My own kid is an "A" student who is into theater and music -- I expect he'll graduate somewhere around #20. He would be a much higher if he had taken weighted classes instead of four theater and two chorus classes. The student who was #1 in my middle son's class -- a young woman I adore -- is in graduate school in the arts, but she didn't take any arts in high school b/c it would have meant sacrificing #1.

I had never heard of the multiple valedictorian thing until I read the DIS.