Uvalde

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AppleDumpling

DIS Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Murder is illegal, there are laws against ending anyone's life so there you go.
As far as the prevalence of guns, that should tell you that the majority of gun owners are not out there committing crimes with them.
People who don't acknowledge that are actually the problem. It's you people blaming the gun, or blaming "gun culture" but not looking at the real issues like the psychos who get guns and go on rampages, or the gangbangers shooting each other in the streets EVERY DAY. Nope lets blame "gun culture" and the 10's of MILLIONS of Americans exercising their natural born rights without ever using their gun for murder or any other crimes. Surely doing something about them will stop these shooting. GTFOH
Short answer, yes I blame the gun culture. People in other countries look at us and shake their heads. The 2nd amendment is grossly misinterpreted and I personally wouldn’t mind if it was repealed. But I realize while legally possible, it’s highly unlikely to happen. I don’t own guns and never will; I have no reason to.

IMO, priorities are screwed up. Some people are unwilling to make any concessions, even if it saves lives. There is a correlation. States with stricter gun regulations have lower rates of homicide and suicide. That’s a fact. We can’t prevent all gun deaths but we can do SOMETHING to try to reduce them.
 

john7994

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
I'm in NY state and while some see our laws as extremely restrictive I don't find them to be.
I don't necessarily agree that they do anything to prevent mass shootings as evidence by Buffalo, or the mass shooting on the subway in NYC (where the laws are more strict than the rest of the state) last month, I don't find they infringe on my rights as a gun owner, at this point anyway.
So here's what I think ... Let's take repealing 2A off the table for a moment - because let's face it - it ain't happening anytime soon.

What if as gun owners, we take the lead to demand of lawmakers standardization of laws to at least a common level of restrictions, procedures, and penalties - with enough teeth of course because seriously again Georgia private sales are a joke for example. Clean-up these loopholes in registrations and enforcement. I like some of the mental health suggestions you made, but they will need funding, so lets common good / consumption tax firearms and ammo like cigarettes, alcohol and gas. And, I would almost go as far as to say there needs to be some type of insurance program that works more like a trust fund for education, school reinforcements, and security. Because as we saw in the tragedy in Texas, most of what I am proposing wouldn't have stopped what happened.

But for this to work, it needs to come from the gun owners and gun lobbies because quite frankly enough is enough already. We can't simply stand behind 2A and spout talking points anymore - its not getting anyone anywhere. To me, this is reasonable, does not infringe on rights of ownership, but does bring a level of better accountability - just like every other choice in life.
 

Buzz Rules

To Infinity and Beyond
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Agreed. I hope we can agree that both sides need to stop vilifying the other when these shootings happen. That does nothing to help the situation, both sides need to put aside the hate they have for each other, and the rhetoric blaming each other and work together for a solution.
💯
 

Dcgc28

DISdad #864.
Joined
Sep 15, 2019
Personally, I am for some kind of gun control that would prevent this type of mass murder. The problem is that none of the proposals have any historical evidence of being effective.

How would self-defense or gun-ownership classes have changed this guy's mind about shooting kids?

10-round mag limits is a joke - they are easily altered and a good operator can change mags very quickly.

The Assault Weapons ban in the '90's has long been established as a failure at preventing crime - so why would it magically work today?

I agree that background checks are essential, they certainly are in my state. But restricting the average citizen's rights, that may or may not help, just for the emotional, knee-jerk response of "doing something" is ridiculous.
None of what you claim is what I said though is it? I didn’t say it would stop this situation, but your argument is really that we shouldn’t educate people before they’re allowed to buy guns because it restricts their rights?

You know what else restricts your life in a major way? Your elementary aged kid not coming home from school that one time.
 

Mango7100

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
These are great points and suggestions. The problem is always that owning a gun is a constitutional right so its very hard to add caveats to it.
No but I think he wouldn’t be able to kill as many as fast. And I’m so tired of hearing about rights. We can amend the constitution. It’s been done before.
Exactly LSUmiss. The Constitution can be amended—why we even have a whole section of amendments in it! It was a document written by a bunch of white men 200 + years ago. They could not possibly have any inkling what the nation would be like now. Times were way different, and to keep claiming that “but the constitution gives me a right to own guns because that’s what they wanted back in 1700s when a musket was the most complex gun so I should be able to buy 10 AR 15s because freedom!” is so myopic and tiring.
 

Buzz Rules

To Infinity and Beyond
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Short answer, yes I blame the gun culture. People in other countries look at us and shake their heads. The 2nd amendment is grossly misinterpreted and I personally wouldn’t mind if it was repealed. But I realize while legally possible, it’s highly unlikely to happen. I don’t own guns and never will; I have no reason to.

IMO, priorities are screwed up. Some people are unwilling to make any concessions, even if it saves lives. There is a correlation. States with stricter gun regulations have lower rates of homicide and suicide. That’s a fact. We can’t prevent all gun deaths but we can do SOMETHING to try to reduce them.
I’ll say this. I don’t own a gun but I believe in the second amendment. I am fully for any modern restrictions that can be applied to the current law. My ancestors were here during the Revolution. If you research 18th century lifestyles, you would find that gun safety was taken extremely seriously at the time. Culture on guns has change since the World Wars. That is the starting point that should be analyzed. As I said earlier, I believe no citizens should have any military grade weapon. The British public at the time of the Revolution were horrified at the idea that any civilian in the colonies could possibly have a weapon. Personally, I wish the gun buying was limited and that the age is raised. I also think games like call of duty age requirement of purchase, currently 17, should be raised to 21.
 

Buzz Rules

To Infinity and Beyond
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
I think we can all agree the militia is not well-regulated.

Second Amendment​

Second Amendment Explained


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Each of the states have their own regulated militia (Ex. NY State Guard).
 

Sinder

DIS Veteran
Joined
Aug 24, 2021
So here's what I think ... Let's take repealing 2A off the table for a moment - because let's face it - it ain't happening anytime soon.

What if as gun owners, we take the lead to demand of lawmakers standardization of laws to at least a common level of restrictions, procedures, and penalties - with enough teeth of course because seriously again Georgia private sales are a joke for example. Clean-up these loopholes in registrations and enforcement. I like some of the mental health suggestions you made, but they will need funding, so lets common good / consumption tax firearms and ammo like cigarettes, alcohol and gas. And, I would almost go as far as to say there needs to be some type of insurance program that works more like a trust fund for education, school reinforcements, and security. Because as we saw in the tragedy in Texas, most of what I am proposing wouldn't have stopped what happened.

But for this to work, it needs to come from the gun owners and gun lobbies because quite frankly enough is enough already. We can't simply stand behind 2A and spout talking points anymore - its not getting anyone anywhere. To me, this is reasonable, does not infringe on rights of ownership, but does bring a level of better accountability - just like every other choice in life.

I don't disagree with any of the suggestions you have as long as they wouldn't be cost prohibitive to ownership.
My only issue of course would be that the consumption tax and the insurance revenue would not end up being used for it's intended purpose. Or that it would become an easy way to add prohibitive costs in the future if these measures don't work to prevent anything. While I admit that may sound like I'm wearing a small tin foil hat, I'm not very trustful that any government program working as intended especially when it creates a new revenue stream to "dip in to"
It wouldn't stop me personally from supporting such measures but I don't know if we are in the majority of gun owners.
I still gravitate more to ways of preventing people who should not own firearms from being able to obtain them. I don't know exactly how to do that aside from my previous suggestions but I would think (or at least hope) it is something our politicians could figure out.


I'm pretty tired and I'm going out of town early so I'm calling it a night.
It's been a good conversation, hope you have a good weekend.
 

Sinder

DIS Veteran
Joined
Aug 24, 2021
I think we can all agree the militia is not well-regulated.

Second Amendment​

Second Amendment Explained


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
https://constitutioncenter.org/images/uploads/news/CNN_Aug_11.pdf

What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge.

"Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty
 

Jennasis

DIS life goes on
Joined
Jun 11, 2000
https://constitutioncenter.org/images/uploads/news/CNN_Aug_11.pdf

What did it mean to be well regulated? One of the biggest challenges in interpreting a centuries-old document is that the meanings of words change or diverge.

"Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight." In other words, it didn't mean the state was controlling the militia in a certain way, but rather that the militia was prepared to do its duty
What? Things change you say? The way something was written then isn't how it is now? Intriguing...
 

Sinder

DIS Veteran
Joined
Aug 24, 2021
What? Things change you say? The way something was written then isn't how it is now? Intriguing...

The Constitution just doesn’t change at whim with the times. Those words in The Bill of Rights were written for a purpose. Intriguing for sure.

Have a good night
 

Jennasis

DIS life goes on
Joined
Jun 11, 2000
The Constitution just doesn’t change at whim with the times. Those words in The Bill of Rights were written for a purpose. Intriguing for sure.

I would call having been through decades of mass shootings more than a whim, if things were to be changed. But boy am I glad we acted on a whim and were able to get the equal rights amendment.
 

Grand Koalafornian

Mouseketeer
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
I'm too tired and sad to read the entire thread, so I'm sorry if this has already been addressed. But as a former extremely mentally ill teenager who never hurt anyone but herself I feel like I have something to say here. I think a huge problem in the US is with how we raise boys and treat men. Very few school shooters or mass shooters at all have been women or girls. I think we are raising our boys with both too much entitlement and not enough emotional support.

Hug your sons. Make sure they know you love them, and that they have someone to talk to and somewhere to go. Try to be a listening ear for your sons' friends, too. If they get depressed or violent, get them help. Remind them that everyone has these feelings and it's what we do with them that matters. It's not a moral failing to need help - it is a moral failing to harm themselves or others.
 

john7994

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
I don't disagree with any of the suggestions you have as long as they wouldn't be cost prohibitive to ownership.
My only issue of course would be that the consumption tax and the insurance revenue would not end up being used for it's intended purpose. Or that it would become an easy way to add prohibitive costs in the future if these measures don't work to prevent anything. While I admit that may sound like I'm wearing a small tin foil hat, I'm not very trustful that any government program working as intended especially when it creates a new revenue stream to "dip in to"
It wouldn't stop me personally from supporting such measures but I don't know if we are in the majority of gun owners.
I still gravitate more to ways of preventing people who should not own firearms from being able to obtain them. I don't know exactly how to do that aside from my previous suggestions but I would think (or at least hope) it is something our politicians could figure out.


I'm pretty tired and I'm going out of town early so I'm calling it a night.
It's been a good conversation, hope you have a good weekend.
Fair enough and appreciate the dialog - its a start - far from perfection and I would share some some of the misgiving towards proper regulation / prohibitive cost to ownership - but I think we absolutely need to move forward together. Safe Travels.
 

brockash

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
I am sick beyond measure of the politicians and people focusing on the instruments used instead of the demented people who carry out heinous crimes because it's an easier soundbite.

This is the terrible thing I heard about as well.

We have all this tech monitoring things, I need leaders to explain to me, without fanfare why exactly no algorithms our tax dollars pay for can manage to see this? As far as I am concerned, over 20 years out from World Trade and Patriot Act there is no excuse for the shortcomings. What are they doing with the data if not this because THIS is what I want, being safe & children being safe is the priority of most of us so I want answers as to why this isn't a shared priority & expect I am not the only person who wants answers. This should be a thing of the past, it's not secret, the guy was shouting it and now more mother's cry - it's a failure of how things are done.
Oh because just like gun regulations, monitoring would infringe upon their rights.
 

monsterkitty

DIS Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Deadbolts on the doors have been brought up more than once. I had a deadbolt on my classroom door and instrument storage closet doors for at least 20 years. One day I walked in and they were disengaging the deadbolt on the closet doors, but not my classroom door.

When asked why, their answer was that deadbolts are against fire code because they can't easily be unlocked if the students needed to exit the classroom quickly. I pointed to the deadbolt on the classroom door and they said they would return the next morning. When I came in the next day, they were completely changing my classroom door because of the deadbolt.

Doors have to be locked to get in the room but cannot be locked to exit the room.
 

TheDailyMoo

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jun 9, 2021
GET. RID. OF. ALL. CURRENT. POLITICIANS.
The two party system is a scam perpetrated on the American people to keep them fighting each other while the real narcissists line their pockets and keep power. Why do you think nothing ever gets solved...because it's not good for them! Literally everyone is asleep at the wheel and doesn't see the reality of our pseudo-democracy.

The will of the people is a lot closer than most would have you believe. Most people would be closer to centrists that could at least agree to compromise on many issues if the media and internet wasn't doing the bidding of the machine and making sure people are angry all the time.

ALSO GET RID OF SOCIAL MEDIA. Holy crap how can people not see almost a direct correlation in the rise of Social media culture and the downward spiral of our society. Time to wake up to make everyone's lives better.
 
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