Uvalde

[Southernmiss]

There's a meme going around that those wanting guns should be given the same requirements and waiting periods as those seeking an abortion.

A lot of truth in those points.

 

[MamaMermaid]

Teacher and mom checking in... just sick by all this. So tired.

 

[dvcgirl67]

I saw Dan mention the Steve Kerr clip....that's exactly how I've felt since the Uvalde Massacre. Angry...and on the verge of tears. While everyone around the country screams and cries "Enough!"....the "consensus" seems to be that nothing will change. And I think the consensus is right. Nothing will change. This shooting took place on a Tuesday, and it'll stay on the news through the end of this week....but then we're heading into a three day holiday weekend here in the States. By Tuesday of next week....we'll move on.

So much talk of our special fondness for "Freedom" in this country, and our fierce protection of our "Rights". Well, we might be a free society, but we're not a carefree society anymore. We are on edge...all of the time, even if we're not conscious of it. We are all being terrorized because a lot of money is being thrown at a bunch of people to keep this insanity going.

 

[penn19]

Of course having universal health care helps, but still some people fall through the cracks. Our last shooting was in 2011 and this person shouldn't have been able to obtain a gun. I am not exactly sure how hard it is to get a gun here, but besides that is the cultural issue: nobody wants to own a gun or feels the need to have one. We do not feel we need to own weapons to defend ourselves. Who is threatening us? Who do we need protection from? Why should we need a gun?

I do not know what the mentally ill who slip through do with their rage, probably mainly internalize it or use it for the people around them, but without killing.

Getting rid of politicians won't fully help, because weapons are part of your culture.

Because you are normalizing something that is not normal. You do not need a weapon to bully someone and yes drugs and weapons being snuck in will go down, but it will not go away. If someone wants to, they will find ways to cheat the system.

This is fascinating to me (and seriously makes me question my mind set). Do you not have crime there? Or is it more of the petty variety? I don’t live in fear and don’t own a gun but I do feel I have to make myself more aware. I do feel like it’s possible to be a victim of crime here.

 

[Cheburashka]

The conversation this stemmed from was talking about 2nd graders. Tell me how armed guards, metal detectors, clear backpacks, etc isn’t treating them like criminals?

I teach these babies. They shouldn’t be the ones having to make all the changes. They should feel safe coming on campus.

There are metal detectors and security guards at Disney World. That isn't treating guests like criminals; it's for their protection. I'm a teacher and would appreciate more security at my workplace.

Clear bag requirements would be invasive- that's a bad idea. But fencing, better building security & guards would be a positive for schools. That's what would make students & teachers feel more safe on campus.

 

[dvcgirl67]

The conversation this stemmed from was talking about 2nd graders. Tell me how armed guards, metal detectors, clear backpacks, etc isn’t treating them like criminals?

I teach these babies. They shouldn’t be the ones having to make all the changes. They should feel safe coming on campus. The change needs to come from the outside.

I agree with you...the change *should* come from the outside, but you and I both know....it won't, not in time to save kids or grocery store shoppers churchgoers, movie theater patrons....on and on. I hate hearing "harden the schools", "good guys with guns"....etc. But we are *never* going for a full (and brilliant) Australia style move where everyone turns in their guns peacefully, and move on with a much safer and more civil future. That isn't going to happen here. Assault weapons ban....is not going to happen. We can't even get Universal Background Check passed...which is insane. So, since we can't "harden" all aspects of daily life here in the U.S.....schools need to be assessed for weak points...etc, so we at least muster the courage to keep our children from being slaughtered.

But...tell you what, I saw ChinaExpat say it on another thread. My DH and I are mid-50s...have obligations to elderly parents right now, but when we can go....we're leaving. Minds made up. We've reached our "we'd had it" moment. I am not going to live in a country awash in a sea of guns....literally, as put so well in Hamilton...."a powder keg about to explode"....on several fronts.

 

[mrs. magoo]

I teach in an inner city school. We have had multiple shootings outside the school during the day. On a lockout last week for 2 shootings across the street. One day all of my kids and myself were under our desks for 20 minutes while bullets were fired outside my open windows, but my students go through metal detectors everyday. I feel safe in the building and even when I drive home I have never been fearful. To be honest I think the kids see school as a safe place to fight - they know adults are going to break up the fight.

I have personally known gun violence. My sister was murdered by her husband with a gun. He was never brought to justice as it was covered up by the police and we were told it was a suicide. I have to see that man when I grocery shop as he moved back to our neighborhood. This occurred 25 years ago and I still have so much anger toward him and his family but I have never confronted him or his family.

While guns are part of our culture other countries often deal with stabbings. This article from the BBC shows that young children are fearfully of violence in other cultures too - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-59916035

I want something to change but it goes so deep now that the entire system needs to blown up. I am not sure if that will ever happen with the division we face in this country. For the time being I do what I can for my high school students. I try to provide them with stability and respect on a daily basis. I feed them, clothe them and give them a listening ear. This is all I can do. I mourn when I read of a former student gunned down - happened a month ago. I don't have answers but I refuse to believe that we can't make a difference with kids.

 

[CdnCarrie]

seems like it’s coming out that police waited for quite sometime prior to entering the school this week . Parents were threatening to go in. Very sad.

 

[EACarlson]

The idea to be able to walk in to a gun store on your 18th birthday and buy two AR15's along with 375 of military grade rounds, without a permit or background check, boggles my mind. And then bring all that along with your new body armor to the next massacre.

The rifles were bought from a Federal Firearms Licensee and there was 100% a background check done.

How about a mental health database along with mandatory background checks for private sales?
We already have background checks for gun store or online purchases but some states do not require them for private sales. ETA- not sure about online sales in other states, here you can order a firearm online but have to have it shipped to an FFL that will run your background check before you take possession of it.
Background checks including criminal and mental health check (as in have you ever been or are currently being treated for 'specific conditions determined by mental health professionals that put you at a higher probability for harming yourself for every single purchase. Checking a box "no" shouldn't be enough, there should be a database where that "no" can be confirmed.
How about for anyone making any threat on social media about shooting someone, or many people they are automatically flagged and cannot purchase a firearm.
How about stricter enforcement of Red Flag laws. In 2019 NY's Red Flag laws went into effect, yet the Buffalo shooter was able to purchase a firearm without anything coming up on his background check.

I'd gladly sign petitions for those things.

All online sales that cross state lines must go through a FFL and an FBI NICS check is required to be done before the firearm can be sold. Requiring all mental health diagnoses to be entered into a database that can restrict one's constitutional rights will not do much but prevent people from seeking help. This happened with the VA a few years ago.

Make it harder to obtain a gun, I’d like to see mandatory self defense classes, as a gun owner I have a CWP and took the time to learn its operation. I’d like to see gun owners being taught that it’s used in a defensive case not an offensive nature.

I’d like to see magazine restrictions to 10 per mag regardless of gun type. I’d like to see no civilian be able to own an automatic weapon regardless of their training. I’d like to push overall safety with weapons.

There are still plenty of options. The question will always be is forcing someone to take classes and get licensed a violation of the 2A right? The. The other elephant in the room is what do you do with criminals who already have weapons outside of these parameters?

It’s a tough out honestly. There’s no set in stone answer.

Very simple question if something is going to violate the Constitution, would a similar edict on any of the other Constitutional rights be acceptable to you? If we required a civics class with a passing grade and working knowledge of how government works to vote would that be acceptable to you? And yes, requiring someone to be licensed to have arms in the US is a violation of the Constitution. See District of Columbia V Heller and McDonald V City of Chicago.

I agree and call that the "NRA syndrome". Private citizens can't go to a store and buy a boozka or anti-aircraft weapon and no one argues about the 2nd amendment for those. Guns that have a valid use for hunting are different from ones whose primary purpose is to kill a lot of people in a short period of time.

Some do argue exactly that. There are some that argue anything the government is allowed to have is comething the citizenry should have access to as well. Hunting has absolutely nothing to do with the second amendment. The entire purpose of the second amendment is to prevent governmental tyranny. You want gun owners to buy in to giving up standard capacity magazines and semi automatic rifles, take them away from the government and it's agent's first.

Exactly LSUmiss. The Constitution can be amended—why we even have a whole section of amendments in it! It was a document written by a bunch of white men 200 + years ago. They could not possibly have any inkling what the nation would be like now. Times were way different, and to keep claiming that “but the constitution gives me a right to own guns because that’s what they wanted back in 1700s when a musket was the most complex gun so I should be able to buy 10 AR 15s because freedom!” is so myopic and tiring.

Apply that to other rights and see where it gets you. The easiest one is the first, does that only apply to a box in the town square and the printing presses of the time? And no, the musket was not the most complex firearm of the 1700's, there were semi automatic and fully automatic firearms available. The musket was just the most common.

Yes, I would actually say so. It's not the whole story, but this is a particularly sick society.

This killer bragged in the past that he wanted to do a school shooting. His teacher reported it and he was briefly institutionalized as a result, but he convinced mental health authorities that he had been "kidding", so they released him. That gullibility of mental health officials needs to go away.

If he had been "involuntarily committed" that would have made him a prohibited person. If the state had given that information to be included in NICS. This is the route that really needs to be explored, and not giving 4th, 5th and 6th chances.

Look at the demographics of who commits these acts. I think it's near 70% white males. A very common refrain is heard after almost each one...loner. bullied. weird. animal abuser. gives a heads up but nobody takes him seriously.

Profile the hell out of them. Get them the help that is so desperately needed. And, for the love of all that is holy...do NOT sell them a gun.

It's not going to solve it, obviously, but if it saves one child from being blown away during math class, it's effing worth it.

The efforts to get a gun should be way, way, way stricter than getting an abortion. You want to tout pro-life? Protect ALL life then.

Agree that there is a profile. A couple of things I think could be done while maintaining Constitutionality and keep firearms out of the hands of kids like this. Add animal abuse to the list of disqualifying crimes. Add juvenile records to NICS with a change that disqualifying crimes includes those crimes that would be disqualifying if committed by an adult. Put teeth into the law that requires the states to put their acts into NICS. Many prohibited persons have been able to get guns after moving states because the states didn't update NICS. Use the civil commitment process. This is the only way to take away someone's rights without a criminal conviction.

Stop comparing getting a gun to getting an abortion, or I've seen some memes comparing it to buying pseudoephedrine. Especially when you have absolutely no idea the process to legally purchase a firearm.

Make schools a harder target. Allow those with carry permits or those that are willing to take up that mantle to protect schools in the same manner we protect everything else. If I go to my state capitol or school board meeting there are folks with guns there to protect the politicians, why not let those that have been through the background checks and training to protect the kids? Not necesarily police since we saw how that worked out in Parkland, but mothers, fathers and staff inside the schools.

 

[Disneefun]

All I know is that there's a ton of outrage right now and bills being passed to keep kids from being taught "inappropriate material" in elementary schools. (I'll leave that there to avoid politics.) But yet we seem to think it's perfectly OK to teach little kids what to do in active shooter situations at school. We think it's okay that we have to discuss with them the realities of possibly being shot and killed in school. Question: How is that "age appropriate?" It's total madness where our priorities are right now. Total. Madness.

 

[Dan Murphy]

The rifles were bought from a Federal Firearms Licensee and there was 100% a background check done.

Yes, EAC, I saw that subsequently. Sadly true.

Not necesarily police since we saw how that worked out in Parkland,

And, as it now looks, apparently yesterday with the first responding police.

 

[Disneefun]

But...tell you what, I saw ChinaExpat say it on another thread. My DH and I are mid-50s...have obligations to elderly parents right now, but when we can go....we're leaving. Minds made up. We've reached our "we'd had it" moment. I am not going to live in a country awash in a sea of guns....literally, as put so well in Hamilton...."a powder keg about to explode"....on several fronts.

You must be my twin, right down to age and circumstances! And I agree with you. The minute we can go, we're out. We may not be able to get permanent citizenship elsewhere, but we plan to just keep moving from place to place, staying until visas run out and then moving on.

 

[monsterkitty]

There are metal detectors and security guards at Disney World. That isn't treating guests like criminals; it's for their protection. I'm a teacher and would appreciate more security at my workplace.

Clear bag requirements would be invasive- that's a bad idea. But fencing, better building security & guards would be a positive for schools. That's what would make students & teachers feel more safe on campus.

Our district removed fencing around the schools the past few years. Fencing won't keep the bad guy out as the fences can be climbed, but it will keep students and staff from escaping into the neighborhood quickly if needed.

seems like it’s coming out that police waited for quite sometime prior to entering the school this week . Parents were threatening to go in. Very sad.

The policy pre-Columbine was to wait outside. That changed for departments all over the country. It makes me sad and incredibly angry that the storm the school policy was not followed. It makes me sick as well.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You don't honestly think that everyone who owns those guns are just going to obediently turn them in, do you?

I'm late to this part of the conversation but buyback programs do exist and they can have some success. The one making the news right now was from Sacramento where a $50 gas card per firearm drew huge interest including getting some parts to ghost guns (which are starting to become a more pressing issue).

Under normal times people will take the cash but apparently right now all you gotta offer is some relief to high gas prices..

That said at least from Sacramento's police department the main reasons they heard (this is from the news story I was reading) for people turning in items was “lack of experience” with firearms and a “lack of knowledge” of the legality of guns or the “inability” to safely store the firearms" so in terms of crimes at least in this particular area that may or may not have lessened that other than perhaps less opportunity for stolen guns to occur.

 

[Karin1984]

This is fascinating to me (and seriously makes me question my mind set). Do you not have crime there? Or is it more of the petty variety? I don’t live in fear and don’t own a gun but I do feel I have to make myself more aware. I do feel like it’s possible to be a victim of crime here.

Of course we have crime, we are not better than any other country. But it's really a mindset about weapons.
For example the last few years more jewellery stores get robbed, and some more than once. Also more high profile people, celebrities and such get robbed at home or on the street (mainly targetting expensive watches and jewellery).
The advice here is: When you get robbed give the thief what he wants and call the police. When you see an incident, they advise you to film / remember details, we are never advised to intervene or use violence ourselves.
In the Netherlands there are about 400 street robberies in a year, and about 400 at home (although you do not have to be at home for this). Relatively most in big cities, of course.

We do have a problem with young people/minors and knives. Knives are available everywhere. Government is currently working on a law regarding carrying knives.
In the meantime we have programs to hand in your weapons without being prosecuted. It doesn't solve everything, but every weapon of the streets makes our lives saver.
There are plenty of kids here who do not get help or are hard to reach. Especially among minority groups. There are all kinds of programs trying to work with the community to reach these kids.

I had a look how to get a gun in the Netherlands (legally)
Most importantly, you need to have a good reason and for everything you need to be a member of a club or society to proof that you need it. Like for sports, re-enactment, collection etc. Also think vets who need tranquilizer guns, people in charge of wildlife who sometimes have to kill animals for the balance in nature.
Self-protection is not on this list.
Besides this you cannot be convicted, you need to give 3 references as part of your background check and they will check your home to see if you can store it properly.

But this doesn't tell you anything about how to get a gun illegally. That's all about knowing the right people (so Google tells me). Telegram is usually a good start.
I am sure there are plenty of illegal guns in the Netherlands.

 

[declansdad]

People are calling for more security guards in schools, more scanners, more security but anytime citizens are asked to pay more to fund schools they refuse.

And people need to stop comparing knife attacks to the many, many mass shootings using semi-automatic weapons. These are just excuses to avoid dealing with the bigger issues.

 

[John VN]

...........................................Make schools a harder target. Allow those with carry permits or those that are willing to take up that mantle to protect schools in the same manner we protect everything else. If I go to my state capitol or school board meeting there are folks with guns there to protect the politicians, why not let those that have been through the background checks and training to protect the kids? Not necesarily police since we saw how that worked out in Parkland, but mothers, fathers and staff inside the schools.

The above is indeed *here* a reality that IMO is disgusting!!! SADLY the carefree educational days of my youth in the '50's will likely never --EVER exist again unless one lives in a BUBBLED CITY.

I can not fathom that the FOUNDING FATHERS of this Country would have agreed to a constitutional right of armament for a citizen that is capable of such destruction in SECONDS.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But...tell you what, I saw ChinaExpat say it on another thread. My DH and I are mid-50s...have obligations to elderly parents right now, but when we can go....we're leaving. Minds made up. We've reached our "we'd had it" moment. I am not going to live in a country awash in a sea of guns....literally, as put so well in Hamilton...."a powder keg about to explode"....on several fronts.

You must be my twin, right down to age and circumstances! And I agree with you. The minute we can go, we're out. We may not be able to get permanent citizenship elsewhere, but we plan to just keep moving from place to place, staying until visas run out and then moving on.

I don't disagree at all with anyone who feels they need to relocate even out of the country, I actually applaud that. But the question I have is would you renounce your citizenship? Because the reason you are leaving is something tied to your citizenship, it's the disdain for the country that you are a citizen of, that you presently call home, and the cultures it has that is making you leave and if that decision to leave the country and reside elsewhere (which is a finite and large step) my impression would be you would renounce your loyalty (which is what citizenship ends up being) and your rights afforded under such citizenship.

And please know this is coming from an honest good conversation, it's just something that I see people saying they will leave and if your feelings are so strong the only ultimate step I see is to give us said citizenship.

 

[penn19]

You must be my twin, right down to age and circumstances! And I agree with you. The minute we can go, we're out. We may not be able to get permanent citizenship elsewhere, but we plan to just keep moving from place to place, staying until visas run out and then moving on.

I was reading an article the other day about people in Portugal being rather upset that they are being flooded with people from California. So I’m wondering if countries might not want “us” moving to their countries.
I will see if I can find the article.

 

[BrianL]

Once more...WE CAN DO BOTH.

Yeah, but if we did one, we wouldn't need to do the other. It may be unrealistic, but it's the kind of world that I would like to see.