*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Would you agree that the most useful data could be collected by interviewing their front line CMs that are dealing with this less than stellar roll out?

How useful CM feedback is depends on what question they are trying to answer. It would be useful wrt where the system is failing, for instance. But the most useful feedback wrt the actual guest experience is to randomly sample guests.

CMs will naturally have their own feelings about the system -- their personal opinions when they tour themselves, as well as their experiences dealing with unhappy guests (which are bound to be around during testing rollout!!) potentially coloring their take on FP+. Their take on "does FP+ improve the guests experience" wouldn't be very valuable. You have to ask the guests for that.

 

[Shaden]

I don't understand your post at all. Not sure what my opinion was -- that Disney uses random sampling? Or that random sampling is the only thing that is truly informative regarding an entire population?

Your argument that people are more likely to complain than to compliment and that this is somehow true for the feedback being present on social media etc.

Your point that random sampling being the only true measure is absolutely correct.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Actually, this is the last place to look for people who will go less often and take business away from Disney. As loud and as often as this crowd carps, it is still the fan base that is the most likely to overlook the warts. What Disney needs to be concerned with are the people who have far less time, money and emotion invested in WDW and who are coming down for the first time, doing some days at both WDW and US and are doing a head-up comparison. Of the people who I know who fit this description, the "I'm not going back to WDW, but I will go back to US" visitors are becoming more and more numerous. That is not to suggest that this is the universal cry (pardon the pun). Far from it. But it is becoming more and more the case among the casual, non-Dis crowd.

I think we agree re: many of the vocal people here -- big Disney fans for many years. My feeling is that by randomly sampling guests in their surveys, they'll capture discontent that is likely to result in lost business and make moves to adjust the system if needed. Not that this will happen smoothly, or that they will "save" every customer, but that this is how they'd likely go about pleasing the most guests possible.

 

[coopersmom]

Yes. Everywhere on discussion forums and in social media - or even in the parks, people who are unhappy are likely to express that unhappiness LOUDLY and OFTEN. Human nature for those like me or those who *gasp* like FP+ to be more likely to keep quiet and not bother chiming in.

Disney collects feedback via random sampling -- the only thing anyone should draw any real conclusions from. What is said after a blog post or on here is completely unrepresentative of the population. Statistical fact, not opinion.

No company, especially one that brands itself as being customer-service-oriented, can afford to ignore negative social media mentions and other online complaints, particularly with an "only unhappy people speak out" mentality. It's a specious argument to say they should "ignore the whiners" and assume that every single person NOT posting about their displeasure is, in fact, a wholly satisfied and enthusiastic customer.

Now, to be fair, I don't think Disney is, has or will be doing that.

But I do absolutely think that even if they're getting a crap-ton of negative feedback via internal surveys you will never, EVER see them saying that publicly. Regardless of input, the PR spin will always be "We're seeing a lot of customer excitement" and "We think it's going great!" Nature of the beast, that.

And to everyone who keeps scoffing and saying, "Don't you think Disney is smarter than that?" when systemic flaws are revealed. Well, yeah, I don't think they INTENDED to have the level of technical glitches and customer complaints that have occurred. I have no doubt neither was in their model. But the fact is unplanned stuff happens and this roll out has anything but smooth. If it was going as fantastic as Disney would like you to think, there would be press conferences about scheduled roll out dates for this system to be implemented at all Disney's parks, not implicit statements that, as of now, they aren't expanding it anywhere else.

On paper, FastPass+ (and the accompanying My Magic whatnot) was supposed to be a panacea that increased guest satisfaction while improving technology, allowing for more targeted marketing and increased per-person-spending AND reducing staffing requirements both by automating more and better crowd prediction, but so far none of the above has come to pass. Staffing is actually increased, as is the overall customer service burden. And that's just looking at the FastPass+ part, which I agree they could likely smooth out in the future.

The real fly in the ointment, for Disney, is that the technology remains largely unreliable on the scale they need it to work on and ended up going wildly over-budget and over-time. THAT'S the real corporate crisis. Not message board squabbling over standby line waits.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

They could decide to stay on-site. Just like Universal Studios, staying on-site is beginning to have real advantages.

When I decided to book one night onsite and take a cruise, rather than booking a week at a condo, I was betting on "worse-case scenario" predictions for FP+. Disney had not confirmed that legacy FP was going away (some people on disboards were arguing that it never would), no one (except Disney) knew when it was going away, and no one knew when/how offsite guests would have access to FP+. Not all resorts were even part of the "test."

Vacation rentals generally have strict cancellation penalties. Many hotels also offer discounted non-refundable rates. So even if a family could afford onsite, which is more difficult with large and extended families, it might have been at a significant financial loss. Meanwhile, offsiters have been teased with the possibility that they might be able to prebook on spring break after all. So, while this may all work out "evenly" in the end, it's not too fair for people traveling to Disney right now and not all have the luxury to return in a year or two.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Your argument that people are more likely to complain than to compliment and that this is somehow true for the feedback being present on social media etc.

Your point that random sampling being the only true measure is absolutely correct.

OK - gotcha - thanks for clarifying. It's not a rule and always true like 1+1=2, but it is my understanding from studies and how I've seen theories applied in marketing and business in general that it's fairly safe to bet that unhappy customers are louder than happy ones. Seems pretty uncontroversial from what I can tell. This piece I never claimed was "statistical fact". I do think that it's widely accepted in practice, though.

 

[2Tiggies]

CMs will naturally have their own feelings about the system -- their personal opinions when they tour themselves, as well as their experiences dealing with unhappy guests (which are bound to be around during testing rollout!!) potentially coloring their take on FP+. Their take on "does FP+ improve the guests experience" wouldn't be very valuable. You have to ask the guests for that.

I would imagine that CM's get an enormous amount of feedback from the guests. They are right in the line of fire and see it as it happens. The way I see it is that CM's are getting feedback regardless of whether they ask for it or not.

ETA:

Would you agree that the most useful data could be collected by interviewing their front line CMs that are dealing with this less than stellar roll out?

I missed this while I was typing. Yes. As above, I am with you on this one.

 

[WillAustin]

So, while this may all work out "evenly" in the end, it's not too fair for people traveling to Disney right now and not all have the luxury to return in a year or two.

I think this point is frequently getting overlooked. To each individual family, the big picture isn't what matters.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

Actually, this is the last place to look for people who will go less often and take business away from Disney. As loud and as often as this crowd carps, it is still the fan base that is the most likely to overlook the warts. What Disney needs to be concerned with are the people who have far less time, money and emotion invested in WDW and who are coming down for the first time, doing some days at both WDW and US and are doing a head-up comparison. Of the people who I know who fit this description, the "I'm not going back to WDW, but I will go back to US" visitors are becoming more and more numerous. That is not to suggest that this is the universal cry (pardon the pun). Far from it. But it is becoming more and more the case among the casual, non-Dis crowd.

Exactly. I will probably always go back to Disney, although for shorter trips. But my friend who was going to plan a big family trip, loved FP on her one short trip, and has never been a disboards member? She cringed at a 3 FP limit and said she'd have to rethink her plans.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

No company, especially one that brands itself as being customer-service-oriented, can afford to ignore negative social media mentions and other online complaints, particularly with an "only unhappy people speak out" mentality. It's a specious argument to say they should "ignore the whiners" and assume that every single person NOT posting about their displeasure is, in fact, a wholly satisfied and enthusiastic customer.

Now, to be fair, I don't think Disney is, has or will be doing that.

But I do absolutely think that even if they're getting a crap-ton of negative feedback via internal surveys you will never, EVER see them saying that publicly. Regardless of input, the PR spin will always be "We're seeing a lot of customer excitement" and "We think it's going great!" Nature of the beast, that.

And to everyone who keeps scoffing and saying, "Don't you think Disney is smarter than that?" when systemic flaws are revealed. Well, yeah, I don't think they INTENDED to have the level of technical glitches and customer complaints that have occurred. I have no doubt neither was in their model. But the fact is unplanned stuff happens and this roll out has anything but smooth. If it was going as fantastic as Disney would like you to think, there would be press conferences about scheduled roll out dates for this system to be implemented at all Disney's parks, not implicit statements that, as of now, they aren't expanding it anywhere else.

On paper, FastPass+ (and the accompanying My Magic whatnot) was supposed to be a panacea that increased guest satisfaction while improving technology, allowing for more targeted marketing and increased per-person-spending AND reducing staffing requirements both by automating more and better crowd prediction, but so far none of the above has come to pass. Staffing is actually increased, as is the overall customer service burden. And that's just looking at the FastPass+ part, which I agree they could likely smooth out in the future.

The real fly in the ointment, for Disney, is that the technology remains largely unreliable on the scale they need it to work on and ended up going wildly over-budget and over-time. THAT'S the real corporate crisis. Not message board squabbling over standby line waits.

I don't disagree with anything you've said!!

I think the negative social media comments, etc. could become a PR problem for them. One that they counter with positive advertising, snazzy glossy brochures and things that I'm receiving in the mail, nifty USB drives mailed to me to instruct me on FP+ and get me jazzed about locking in SOME favorites...

I am making the point that this feedback is not dispositive of anything, and that the random sampling feedback they get is what they'll use to tweak (or not) their products. That's not the same thing as "ignoring" the dissatisfied vocal posters - but I wouldn't expect Disney to address them directly much -- if at all. They'd counter with their widely-disseminated positive advertising.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I would imagine that CM's get an enormous amount of feedback from the guests. They are right in the line of fire and see it as it happens. The way I see it is that CM's are getting feedback regardless of whether they ask for it or not.

ITA. But it would be far less efficient, and far less accurate and representative to get that second-hand feedback from CMs rather than directly random sampling the guests themselves.

 

[2Tiggies]

ITA. But it would be far less efficient, and far less accurate and representative to get that second-hand feedback from CMs rather than directly random sampling the guests themselves.

Oh absolutely. There is no disputing that. However I do think it has a lot of relevance

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I am sadly off now onto non-Disney endeavors, but thanks to all for the exchanges today!! Love it when there's chatting and exchange of ideas without any of us (me included!! ) getting cranky!

for now!

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Oh absolutely. There is no disputing that. However I do think it has a lot of relevance

Always strikes me as good practice for any company to value their employees enough to get their feedback on myriad issues. Good policy -- even more for employee satisfaction and retention than for marketing purposes, depending on the questions.

 

[bcrook]

Disney wants 200,000 or so people in the parks on a busy day. It's 25,000 hotel rooms cannot handle that many people. So Disney knows that the majority of people in the parks on busy days will be staying off site. Just saying "stay on site" doesn't get anyone anywhere.

.

 

[Davey Jones II]

And the person you were discussing that with already made it clear that he was referencing the total # of FPs available in the park (which has gone up, as the number of rides that use FP has increased), not the # of FPs available per ride.

This is one of the main goals of the system. Offer more FP+s to more secondary rides to help spread out the crowds away from the headliners - thus keeping the headliner lines similar (or even slightly lower), but increasing the waits for the secondary attractions. Basic crowd control...too many people at too few attractions...let's see what we can do to spread them out more.

It won't work. This is yet more blinkered, short term thinking, coupled with cynical manipulation, from the WDC. In the long run, this is foolishness.

The headliners are popular for a reason. They tend to be the E Tickets, or just the highest quality attractions. You're not going to change that just because you force people to fast pass the lesser attractions through a tiering system.

One of the problems is that this will not increase customer loyalty and repeat business. If, due to these manipulations, people don't get to ride the headliners as often as they would like, then that has to chip away at customer loyalty. If Disney is subject to anything like the 80/20 rule, then they are playing with fire. Posters on Disboards may not represent all Disney guests, but I firmly believe that we represent the 20%.

If Disney is getting the result they want, then why do they keep talking about making changes to the system? Maybe because they've been hearing about it from the 20%?

 

[Davey Jones II]

Look, people can throw out all the numbers about average wait times going down all they want, but when I KNOW that I was not able to do the same number of attractions and waited in more, longer lines, it really doesn't mean much.

My experience trumps numbers. It sucked. It was not as good. Period.

Your experience is hardly unique. I've read countless posts that say the exact same thing. Your experience is not an aberration, it is what's happening on the ground.

As I've said before, no high tech system can ever be as fast as simply showing a paper fast pass to a CM, then having him/her eyeball it for a second before waving you through. And that, in turn, also means slower moving SB lines.

It's as simple as that.

 

[bcrook]

It won't work. This is yet more blinkered, short term thinking, coupled with cynical manipulation, from the WDC. In the long run, this is foolishness.

The headliners are popular for a reason. They tend to be the E Tickets, or just the highest quality attractions. You're not going to change that just because you force people to fast pass the lesser attractions through a tiering system.

One of the problems is that this will not increase customer loyalty and repeat business. If, due to these manipulations, people don't get to ride the headliners as often as they would like, then that has to chip away at customer loyalty. If Disney is subject to anything like the 80/20 rule, then they are playing with fire. Posters on Disboards may not represent all Disney guests, but I firmly believe that we represent the 20%.

If Disney is getting the result they want, then why do they keep talking about making changes to the system? Maybe because they've been hearing about it from the 20%?

The manipulation is much more bothersome to me than the limits. And the messing with preplanning is even more of a fun sucker than those two items.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I don't care what kind of awful, immoral, sinful, person it makes me. I don't consider a system an improvement if my own experience is either kept the same or decreased. If you are happy to take a hit on your vacation experience so a family you've never met can have a better one, good for you.

I guess I don't see why people keep using that as a "gotcha" point. It's not news to me, and I assume it's not news to most of us. I really don't care if the collective experience is better, mines not.

The collective experience is no better, either. Two equations, one I've used before:

Same waits for headliners + longer waits for secondary attractions = longer overall wait times.

Old fashioned eyeballs > new fangled gizmo.

 

[Davey Jones II]

The manipulation is much more bothersome to me than the limits. And the messing with preplanning is even more of a fun sucker than those two items.

No one likes to feel that they're being manipulated by someone making cold, cynical calculations -- particulary a giant corporation. Too bad they didn't just shelve all this nonsense, and focus on nothing but creating great rides and amazing theme park experiences for their guests. Are there no Walts left in this company?

You want to disperse the crowds? Build new E Tickets. Replace some of the crappy attractions that only attract crowds when they're dutifully making their third FP+ time of the day. THAT will get the job done, and make your customers happy -- instead of pissed off and worried.