*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

Eh. But that's life. I don't need Big Brother to level the playing field. I have an Express Pass for highway tolls. I have a vested interest in not having everyone get the pass thus keeping the Express Lanes shorter. I wouldn't be happy if they changed the system so that everone had Express Lane privileges, but that each person could only use the Express Lanes three times a year and had to use the Cash Lanes the rest of the time.

Eh, but that's not good for Disney to have you going on a ride 3 times and two other guests not riding it at all. Disney has done exactly as you describe, and given everyone equal Express Lane privileges. What was once a benefit only you (and I, and some others) chose to utilize is now appealing for the majority to use.
 
This whole thing is such a "straw-man" argument:

"FP+ is a terrible mistake and a complete blunder because I will have to wait longer in line or I won't get as many FP as before."

and

"FP+ was not needed because everyone had the same access to FP before - why can't anyone understand that?!?"

or

"This one anecdotal family I give an example of would fare better under Legacy than Plus so the whole system is bogus and obviously no one is better off under Plus and you must see that because it is the only logical conclussion"

I have to throw the flag on all of these arguments.

There is an underlying factor to all of this. People don't want to admit it so they make up straw-man arguments to try and defend their little piece of turf.

Under the old system you could exploit the system if you were informed and/or experienced to maximize your time. Some people were masters at it, some were OK but got better as trips went on - and a great many people were basically clueless. We all benefited from that great mass of clueless people. While THEY wandered around trying to figure out what to do WE arrived to the park at RD, hit the good rides early, got our FP and had them timed out to maximize the number we could get in a day. For awhile we even could use these FP outside of our window. Most of us took great advantage of this and boy were most of us MAD when Disney had the nerve to actually start enforcing those return windows.

Flash forward to 2014. Disney has decided they want to maximize overall use of this really efficient FP queueing system. They are going to advertise it and even give people the chance to reserve rides at certain times before they even get there. They make the system easier to use so that instead of running or speedwalking on your pre-planned route people can gobble up those Fast Passes from their computer, smartphone (even grandma has a smart phone these days) or handy computer terminals inside the park. Disney thinks this is going to greatly increase use of FP so even though some of us experts were able to get 6 or 7 a day before they decide to limit it to 3 a day to make sure there is enough to go around.

So now what happens??? Armed with more knowledge about the system and easier access those great clueless masses actualy start booking and using their Fast Passes. Josh from easy wdw posts an article with some shocking news: two months into the new system MORE PEOPLE ARE USING FAST PASS AND BECAUSE OF THAT STAND BY TIMES ON SOME SECONDARY RIDES HAVE INCREASED. Imagine the outrage - now because those people who used to wander around without a clue and stand in line for 2 hours in the middle of the day are actually using FP I now have to wait 30 minutes for Pirates instead of 15. On top of that instead of me getting 5 - 7 fast passes a day while they maybe got 1 or 2 once they figured out what those funny tickets were coming out of those machines near the good rides, I only get 3 just like everybody else.

The entire system MUST be completely messed up because I don't get as many fastpasses as I used to get. The fact that other people are using FP more now than before means nothing because they could have figured out the old system just like I did.

Fast Pass Plus is a huge mistake because I, I, I and me, me, me may have to wait a little longer in line. It doesn't matter that the massive numbers of first time guests at MK today got to tour the parks more efficiently. I didn't get to ride Splash Mountain 7 times before they figured out the difference between Space Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain.

These idiot execs at Billion Dollar companies like Wal-Mart, Amazon and Disney must be clueless because they listend to a few brilliant engineers who innovated their inventory and delivery systems to help them more efficiently serve a greater number of their customers. Don't they know their systems are complete failures because I can come up with an anecdote of one day that the system didn't fully benefit ME? Don't they know that all of their other customers must be as knowledgable and experienced as me?

I, I, I, need more, more, more and if Disney doesn't want to give it to me they are obviously failing....
 
So why would disney want more people using the new system . If more people use the system more people will spend time waiting in lines. Normally on attractions that wouldn't have a line normally. I waiting on a line for TTA in January :confused3 and I blame FP+
 
Eh, but that's not good for Disney to have you going on a ride 3 times and two other guests not riding it at all. Disney has done exactly as you describe, and given everyone equal Express Lane privileges. What was once a benefit only you (and I, and some others) chose to utilize is now appealing for the majority to use.

Why is it not good for Disney to have us ride Soarin twice?? :confused3
 

This whole thing is such a "straw-man" argument:

"FP+ is a terrible mistake and a complete blunder because I will have to wait longer in line or I won't get as many FP as before."

and

"FP+ was not needed because everyone had the same access to FP before - why can't anyone understand that?!?"

or

"This one anecdotal family I give an example of would fare better under Legacy than Plus so the whole system is bogus and obviously no one is better off under Plus and you must see that because it is the only logical conclussion"

I have to throw the flag on all of these arguments.

There is an underlying factor to all of this. People don't want to admit it so they make up straw-man arguments to try and defend their little piece of turf.

Under the old system you could exploit the system if you were informed and/or experienced to maximize your time. Some people were masters at it, some were OK but got better as trips went on - and a great many people were basically clueless. We all benefited from that great mass of clueless people. While THEY wandered around trying to figure out what to do WE arrived to the park at RD, hit the good rides early, got our FP and had them timed out to maximize the number we could get in a day. For awhile we even could use these FP outside of our window. Most of us took great advantage of this and boy were most of us MAD when Disney had the nerve to actually start enforcing those return windows.

Flash forward to 2014. Disney has decided they want to maximize overall use of this really efficient FP queueing system. They are going to advertise it and even give people the chance to reserve rides at certain times before they even get there. They make the system easier to use so that instead of running or speedwalking on your pre-planned route people can gobble up those Fast Passes from their computer, smartphone (even grandma has a smart phone these days) or handy computer terminals inside the park. Disney thinks this is going to greatly increase use of FP so even though some of us experts were able to get 6 or 7 a day before they decide to limit it to 3 a day to make sure there is enough to go around.

So now what happens??? Armed with more knowledge about the system and easier access those great clueless masses actualy start booking and using their Fast Passes. Josh from easy wdw posts an article with some shocking news: two months into the new system MORE PEOPLE ARE USING FAST PASS AND BECAUSE OF THAT STAND BY TIMES ON SOME SECONDARY RIDES HAVE INCREASED. Imagine the outrage - now because those people who used to wander around without a clue and stand in line for 2 hours in the middle of the day are actually using FP I now have to wait 30 minutes for Pirates instead of 15. On top of that instead of me getting 5 - 7 fast passes a day while they maybe got 1 or 2 once they figured out what those funny tickets were coming out of those machines near the good rides, I only get 3 just like everybody else.

The entire system MUST be completely messed up because I don't get as many fastpasses as I used to get. The fact that other people are using FP more now than before means nothing because they could have figured out the old system just like I did.

Fast Pass Plus is a huge mistake because I, I, I and me, me, me may have to wait a little longer in line. It doesn't matter that the massive numbers of first time guests at MK today got to tour the parks more efficiently. I didn't get to ride Splash Mountain 7 times before they figured out the difference between Space Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain.

These idiot execs at Billion Dollar companies like Wal-Mart, Amazon and Disney must be clueless because they listend to a few brilliant engineers who innovated their inventory and delivery systems to help them more efficiently serve a greater number of their customers. Don't they know their systems are complete failures because I can come up with an anecdote of one day that the system didn't fully benefit ME? Don't they know that all of their other customers must be as knowledgable and experienced as me?

I, I, I, need more, more, more and if Disney doesn't want to give it to me they are obviously failing....

:thumbsup2
 
As a general matter, we are all guilty of over-thinking this. (Myself included). Consider the following. A family who, in June, 2013, went to Epcot, arrived at 9:30 and did the following:
  • Walked to Soarin' and pulled a FP with a return time of 11:30.
  • Rode Living With The Land.
  • Rode Nemo and explored Living Seas.
  • They rode Journey Into Imagination.
  • Their new FP window opened up, so they got one for Test Track with a return time of 4:00.
  • They rode Soarin' with their FP then had lunch at Sunshine Seasons.
  • They rode Ellen's Energy Adventure.
  • They spent some time at Innoventions.
  • Their new FP window opened up so they got one for Mission Space with a return time of 5:30.
  • They walked around World Showcase.
  • They returned to Future World to use their FPs for Test Track and Mission Space.
  • They rode Spaceship Earth.

Now, this same family arrives at 9:30 and has FPs reserved for Soarin' at 11:30, Mission Space at 1:00 and Spaceship Earth at 2:00. There is no way that this family will be able to repeat their typical day at Epcot without spending more net time in lines. And I don't think that this hypothetical family is unusual, or were 1% super users. So who is FP+ helping?

I made a couple of changes, but putting your hypothetical day in Touring plans I got 59 Minutes in line using "Touring Plans" personalized touring plans on June 18th (picked at random) and adding a 1 minute "meal" in a restaurant near the pavilion to simulate pulling the FP-. I included a ride on Maelstrom, and visiting Germany and Italy pavilion to simulate "walking around world showcase"

Changing your FP+ to TT 1:30, MS 2:30, and SE 2:30. Visiting Soarin as soon as you arrived, "Touring plans" came up with an optimal plan with 69 minutes wait in line. So, you are correct that the wait time is longer. On the other hand. Your FP- plan had 147 minutes of walking getting from place to place. My FP+ plan had 87 minutes of walking. Not making 2 trips down into the land pavilion and an extra trip over to pull the TT FP saved an hour of walking.

So where FP+ save them time might not have been in line but in time not walking to attractions twice.
 
Under the old system you could exploit the system if you were informed and/or experienced to maximize your time. Some people were masters at it, some were OK but got better as trips went on - and a great many people were basically clueless. We all benefited from that great mass of clueless people. While THEY wandered around trying to figure out what to do WE arrived to the park at RD, hit the good rides early, got our FP and had them timed out to maximize the number we could get in a day. For awhile we even could use these FP outside of our window. Most of us took great advantage of this and boy were most of us MAD when Disney had the nerve to actually start enforcing those return windows.

You know what? Every. Single. Adult. at Disney had the same opportunity to use legacy FP. All those clueless people needed to do was spend 15 mins on the internet or reading a guidebook to not be so clueless.

Honestly, the adults never got much sympathy from me when they claimed to know nothing. The kids with clueless parents were the ones I felt sorry for.

But that whole point is moot now. :confused3
 
/
Eh. But that's life. I don't need Big Brother to level the playing field. I have an Express Pass for highway tolls. I have a vested interest in not having everyone get the pass thus keeping the Express Lanes shorter. I wouldn't be happy if they changed the system so that everone had Express Lane privileges, but that each person could only use the Express Lanes three times a year and had to use the Cash Lanes the rest of the time.

JimmyV - I give you credit. At least you are being honest in this post. Human nature is that we all want to protect our slice of the pie. People get threatend when they feel like they are losing something. Many of us were able to make the system work for us before and with the new system that is harder to do right now.

Hence - we put up straw men to take our frustration and anxiety out on....
 
"This one anecdotal family I give an example of would fare better under Legacy than Plus so the whole system is bogus and obviously no one is better off under Plus and you must see that because it is the only logical conclussion"

You claim that this is a straw man argument (and you are misusing that term), but you offer no refutation. You have not, because you cannot, proffer an argument that people who used to get FPs for both Test Track and Soarin’ are now waiting in shorter aggregate lines than before. This hypothetical family, as you put it, is not hypothetical at all. Nor are they anomalous. There is no combination of rides that can be put together that would have the 2014 family come out ahead of the 2013 family. So discard my hypothetical family and posit one of your own. The best that you can offer is that in the collective, more people are using FP than ever before, so that some subset of the people who used to wait 90 minutes in both lines will now wake up to the system and eliminate one of those 90 minute waits. But how does looking at this in the collective benefit anyone, (except perhaps Disney)? The person who waited in two 90 minutes lines before was blissfully ignorant, so they have now reaped a windfall. The person who used to wait in no 90 minute lines has to wait in one. Averaging it out, you end up with a zero sum net result. But you negatively impacted a person who understood the old system (imagine that) and helped a person who wasn’t crying out for help. If that person really wanted help, self-help was right in front of them. You cannot contend that people who rode Soarin’, who walked right past the FP machines on the way into and out of the line, could have possibly been so dense as to not figure out what they were and what they were for. And if they were that dense, then……
 
You know what? Every. Single. Adult. at Disney had the same opportunity to use legacy FP. All those clueless people needed to do was spend 15 mins on the internet or reading a guidebook to not be so clueless. Honestly, the adults never got much sympathy from me when they claimed to know nothing. The kids with clueless parents were the ones I felt sorry for. But that whole point is moot now. :confused3
Agreed! If you choose to not educate yourself, or sleep in or go to a breakfast then to bad. We went at rope drop we got our fast passes. You got there when you wanted and you could still ride it.! You had wait but that was the price you paid.
 
Changing your FP+ to TT 1:30, MS 2:30, and SE 2:30. Visiting Soarin as soon as you arrived, "Touring plans" came up with an optimal plan with 69 minutes wait in line. So, you are correct that the wait time is longer. On the other hand. Your FP- plan had 147 minutes of walking getting from place to place. My FP+ plan had 87 minutes of walking. Not making 2 trips down into the land pavilion and an extra trip over to pull the TT FP saved an hour of walking.

So where FP+ save them time might not have been in line but in time not walking to attractions twice.
You have to be careful with Touring Plans "optimal" plans. They don't always make logical sense. I find it best to start with an optimal plan and then adjust it manually. You often end up with a better total result. I can guarantee that the plan I laid out would not result in two and a half hours of walking. That is an extraordinary number.
 
You know what? Every. Single. Adult. at Disney had the same opportunity to use legacy FP. All those clueless people needed to do was spend 15 mins on the internet or reading a guidebook to not be so clueless.

Honestly, the adults never got much sympathy from me when they claimed to know nothing. The kids with clueless parents were the ones I felt sorry for.

But that whole point is moot now. :confused3

You are exactly right!

and that is exactly why we all feel threatened now - some of the advantage we used to have over those clueless people is now gone.

If everyone would be honest about that instead of making bogus arguments about the nature of the system the feedback would be much better.

For example: "The system is messed up because I may have to wait in longer lines" is not intellectually honest.

However: "I wish Disney would reward my loyalty to and knowledge of WDW as a repeat visitor by letting me keep some advantage over the clueless masses" would be intellectually honest and may lead to a constructive conversation.
 
Anyone with eyes knew this.
 
However: "I wish Disney would reward my loyalty to and knowledge of WDW as a repeat visitor by letting me keep some advantage over the clueless masses" would be intellectually honest and may lead to a constructive conversation.

But it is more than that. I am not (solely) interested in besting the masses. I am also interested in being rewarded for spending an entire day in the park and feel that I should have the opportunity to use more of the line-cutting strategies than someone who sleeps til noon and arrives at the park at 2:00. That person gets their 3 FPs. Fine. But why should I be on the same level playing field as them? Disney has created a system whereby I must wait in a 90 minute Test Track line so that someone who had a BBB appointment and arrived at the park at 3:00 could ride the ride without a wait. They made their choice and I made mine. I chose to be at the park all day. Reward me for that.
 
Love your post NavyDad. It makes a lot of sense. While I don't believe the FP+ system is perfect and could maybe stand a tweak or two, you have nailed the purpose of it completley. Disney wants to move from a system that greatly benefitted a small percentage of guests, to one that only moderately benefits a large percentage of guests.

Yes, going from 8 to 10 FPs a day down to 3 is painful for a lot of us. However, for many guests going from 0 FPs to 3, this must seem pretty great, great enough even to maybe make them regular guests as well. I do hope they can make some minor tweaks that will help smooth things out a bit, but overall I still support the general direction they are going with this.
 
But it is more than that. I am not (solely) interested in besting the masses. I am also interested in being rewarded for spending an entire day in the park and feel that I should have the opportunity to use more of the line-cutting strategies than someone who sleeps til noon and arrives at the park at 2:00. That person gets their 3 FPs. Fine. But why should I be on the same level playing field as them? Disney has created a system whereby I must wait in a 90 minute Test Track line so that someone who had a BBB appointment and arrived at the park at 3:00 could ride the ride without a wait. They made their choice and I made mine. I chose to be at the park all day. Reward me for that.

you pay the same amount to enter the park, but visit it many hours more.

that is all the benefit you really deserve.
 
But it is more than that. I am not (solely) interested in besting the masses. I am also interested in being rewarded for spending an entire day in the park and feel that I should have the opportunity to use more of the line-cutting strategies than someone who sleeps til noon and arrives at the park at 2:00. That person gets their 3 FPs. Fine. But why should I be on the same level playing field as them? Disney has created a system whereby I must wait in a 90 minute Test Track line so that someone who had a BBB appointment and arrived at the park at 3:00 could ride the ride without a wait. They made their choice and I made mine. I chose to be at the park all day. Reward me for that.


:cheer2::thumbsup2

I have to agree with you. Jimmy wants to get to the park at Rope Drop he wants his two fast passes. Divided you want to sleep in or go to the Spa. That wonderful its your vacation but now when you get to Epcot guess what you have to wait in line for 70 mins for TT.
 
But you negatively impacted a person who understood the old system (imagine that) and helped a person who wasn’t crying out for help.

You're not "helping" them per se. Disney has studied, and concluded, that "helping" those who used to show up at 9, walk to NEMO first (because they didn't know to hit Soarin) then do Turtle, then stand in line for Soarin for an hour, then stand in line for other stuff... Disney has found that THESE people will in fact go on the rides quicker, get off them, and then move on to doing other activities.

Those ppl who sauntered in and waited in line for over an hour while we giggled and scurried past them in the FP line... those ppl only want to ride once and they then want to go get a smoothie. Whereas a commando wants to ride, ride again, then ride something else.

That's why Disney is "helping" these ppl who are not crying out to be helped. By doing so, these ppl will get their ride on, get done, go spend money, and have a better time.

They're helping far more ppl have a good time and spend more money for every 1 "fastpass master" they're hurting by them not getting on Soarin 7 times.

You simply can't fault Disney for this profit optimization and redistribution of their rides among a larger group of guests instead of having just a few guests use most of the rides while others use little. As much as now, as an ex-fastpass master, you will now get less, it is better for MOST guests, and that is better for Disney.
 
you pay the same amount to enter the park, but visit it many hours more.

that is all the benefit you really deserve.

Then abolish FP altogether. But if one is going to have the system, one should concede that people in the park all day should be able to take advantage of it and not have much of its benefit helded n check awaiting the arrival of people who may or may not arrive. What becomes of the FPs held by the person who intends to come in the afternoon but never shows up? I am to wait in a 90 minute line because they are hoarding a FP that will never get used?
 
No argumentativeness taken. It's all good. :)

My point was that when you have a belief, it's easy to interpret the data as supporting your belief.

AFAIK, josh has been fairly neutral wrt FP+ on his site? Nor do i recall him posting here saying he disliked FP+ or that FP+ was going to cause longer SB lines...
 













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