*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[MrInfinity]

Now pretend all guests tour like you. Like I originally asserted. Pretend they all show up at rope drop and try to pull a FP to Soarin or TT like you. All the FP- would immediately be gone.

But why "pretend" something that cannot happen.

I'm not pretending. It *is* happening! Right before your eyes. Thanks to technology, every guest is now able to essentially pull a FP- ticket to a headliner of their choice right at rope drop, thus, 38,000 guests later, there is immediately none left for anyone to get seconds.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Rude? No its very honest when looking at how many people here tour/toured. So how did you tour that makes FP not ok for your family?

! sorry that instant gratification and Hyper running around the park to mash in as much as possible because "we've spent so much money on this, I want all of Disney even if it means giving me a drop of Walt's blood" are items no longer being served at Disney.

No, there's nothing rude about this statement at all.

As for how I tour that makes me not like FP+? Well, let's see...last March, during spring break season, we were able to get FPs for Buzz, Ariel, Space, Thunder, Dumbo. Of those, the only one we'd usually get a second FP for is Buzz, which we never saw run out of FPs. There was no "hyper running around the park" required, nor did we employ a FP runner. We had an infant at the time, and I was exclusively pumping (aka frequent breaks of 20-25 mins required), so our pace was very relaxed. We would get FPs for the land we were in and do other attractions in the area while we waited for the window to open. No trying to "mash everything in," as your post implies is required.

Now with only 3 FPs, we have to choose whether we're going to spend more time apart as a family (so that DH and I can both ride headliners using SB and RS, while keeping FP+ for rides for DD), or being together longer, but having a toddler in longer lines for more of the day. Said toddler is not mobile (i.e.not crawling, not standing, not walking) as she has delays, so DH and I would have to carry her in line. The idea of carrying her, even in a carrier, at the weight she is now for 45+ mins is not appealing. I wouldn't be physically able to do it by myself. I did not have such concerns with legacy FP.

We also like to park hop. One morning last March we got to DHS at rope drop, rode what we wanted to by noon. I think we ended up getting 1 FP for TSMM, and 2 for Star Tours. Then it was back to the resort for lunch. Then we went to AK in the afternoon, got FPs for Expedition Everest, Dinosaur and KS. That's no longer possible.

You dont have to plan everything in one shot. You can plan when you get there . It allows that. I don't see the "problems" people claim they are having as real problems OTHER than the amount. I agree more than three should be given to people or three lower tier 2 upper. heck give onsite 10, everyone else 5!

You don't currently have to plan everything in one shot, no....because 50% of guests can't access the system until they get to the park, and are limited to the kiosks even once they do. What happens to that availability when everyone, including offsite, has the ability to prebook, which it seems pretty clear is going to happen?

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

No I have no plans to return to Disney for a full vacation at the moment. And yes, I have tried FP+. I am now switching strictly to Universal, instead of the split trips I have none in the past. Now, that's not only because of FP+, because once Universal got the rights to Potter they automatically got more share of my money. I was raised a Disney kid, I've been going to Disney for many, many years, but Potter trumps all for me, so that is a huge factor there.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I do love Disney, I am just not currently thrilled with the product. I may decide to try it again at some point, and I might do the Christmas party when I am down for Universal in Dec. I just have no plans to book a full vacation at Disney again with the product being currently what it is.

I honestly don't get the whole idea that you need to "bail on the DisBoards" because currently one is not happy with everything Disney is doing. You can have issues with things and still love what Disney has meant to you in your life. You can still check into things and see if maybe something changes or you can find a way to work around your issues eventually.

yes, quite reasonable.

I'm sort of in the same camp, minus the HP love. I just want to try something different on our next Orlando trip and the FP+ system is making that a little easier because I miss our old ways of greedily and selfishly hoarding FPs and not waiting on any lines (joking. sort of. not really I guess

 

[Angel Ariel]

Does this mean that you will not return? I'm truly curious about this. It goes to a conversation I was having on here with some fellow DISers the other day.

I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

Not saying that you are - just asking the question - but if I was truly DONE with Disney because of this, I'd plan other vacations in its place and certainly bail on DISboards. But everyone is different, of course...

Many people posting in this thread haven't claimed they're ending their Disney vacationing. I know I haven't

 

[JimmyV]

It is solely that the system is so much more appealing to customers in general that so many more guests are using it -- and this extra usage is what leads to the result of having one headliner per guest being Fast Passable.

And herein lies the fascinating study in human behavior. There was a bakery that I loved. They made the best cupcakes. Every Saturday I would buy half a dozen. Then word got out about how great the cupcakes were and soon more and more people wanted them. Soon thereafter, the bakery placed a limit of one cupcake per person in order to please a greater number of people. Now, one might question why the bakery would do this. After all, they are making and selling the exact same number of cupcakes and their profit is the same. But they feel the need to please as many people as possible because as a business, it is always better to have a broader base of repeat customers. But when viewed from my perspective, I was always a cupcake buyer. My enthusiasm hasn’t changed. But the raised enthusiasm level of others has materially impacted my ability to enjoy something that I discovered long ago and loved before all these other newbies. There is no mystery as to why I cannot get excited about a raised level of “general enthusiasm” when that raised level has directly cut into my personal enjoyment. Are individuals supposed to rejoice over a system that benefits many people if, at the same time, it works to their own detriment?

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

I don't like to preschedule
I don't like to carry a phone
I don't like the longer fastpass return lines (more waiting but why wouldn't this matter if true?)
I stay offsite and can't preschedule (might be changing)
I don't like wearing anything on my wrist (minor one but it exists)
I don't like Disney monitoring me more closely (maybe paranoia but it is something people have brought up)

You said elsewhere that you could schedule on the fly. That would be OK but I'm not sure if this will work during busy periods. Some people have to go during busy periods.

I pmed you!

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

Are individuals supposed to rejoice over a system that benefits many people if, at the same time, it works to their own detriment?

If you are Spock, then YES! \V/

 

[MrInfinity]

I just want to try something different on our next Orlando trip and the FP+ system is making that a little easier because I miss our old ways of greedily and selfishly hoarding FPs and not waiting on any lines (joking. sort of. not really I guess

See at least this is darn honest. I dislike FP+ too, for this very reason. I was so much better at using FP- than most guests that I could get on so many more rides than pretty much everyone else. Yet I still find I'm excited for the technology since I think it will improve so many other aspects of the trip, and that outweighs the bads.

You already have to factor in the time spent waiting for FP- tickets before. When guests say "I used to ride Dumbo with a bonus FP-" they aren't adding the extra time to run across the park, wait for a kiosk, then run back to wherever their family is waiting. That's easily 10 min lost. That run from Soarin to TT is a nighmare. It's far, down a thousand stairs, across the hottest park in the world, and then back up a thousand stairs. Cutting that entire chunk out of a vacation and instead chilling w the family and riding LWTL while we wait for our slot is so much nicer -- But oh no! Look at that now LWTL has longer lines cuz more ppl have more time on their hands and are picking up these Tier-2 rides. So you can't please everyone. Yet I can look at this system and easily identify why it is so much better, thus the frustration at ppl spinning it as such a negative for Disney. It's a positive for Disney in every way.

 

[JimmyV]

If you are Spock, then YES! \V/

Well played.

 

[FLchick415]

If you are Spock, then YES! \V/

 

[2Tiggies]

You can still do that. I don't see the problem. I would love to help you. I'm just saying your issue is non existent because you can still do your normal plan. HOW you do it may be different but not the end result.

Actually we can not just do what our normal plan would have been. We cannot just meet our offsite friends and go around together and decide what lines look worth joining and which ones aren't. It is going to be busy and am not a stranger to peak times so there is strategy involved regardless, but just changing BTMR on the fly at 11 am because something unexpected has delayed us or thrown us off course is not going to give me BTMR as a substitute on July 3rd. We might be able to take Dumbo from someone with small children who would have had better use for it

Although I didn't suggest and am not suggesting that you were rude, I am puzzled by your authority on how I like to tour the parks. Just because I don't like the new system does not mean that I had plans to go in and clean up every headliner in the first half of the day. So no, in short, we are not doing what we usually do on our trip this year. We are doing less. We are doing things off property, which in my 100+ onsite days thus far is probably the second time. Why? Because there are some things I cannot schedule.

This is what I don't get though - I don't like the new system but I don't hate Disney. Also despite that I don't like the new FP+ it really doesn't bug me that others do I don't understand why it's ok for those who like it to have all manner of descriptions for those who don't, along with describing our bad attitudes, inability to cope with change, selfishness because we don't want to share and don't want to wait. I actually want to be irritated about it, but I'm still too puzzled about why to actually get to a stage where I could feel annoyed.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

It's very simple. Most of us love Disney and have been some of their most loyal customers. We expect further changes to the system to move it in a direction we'd prefer. The more people that complain, the better chance of influencing changes. Complain to a Disney, complain on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, and tell all our friend what we don't like. More changes are coming.

And of course I don't want to wait, and there's really nothing wrong with that, especially when we didn't have to wait much before.

Gotcha'. Back when the details of the system were first released, I guessed (and shared here) that they'd make tweaks to make it more flexible once onsite (e.g. you can get more FP same-days but can only reserve 3, hopping allowed - maybe after first 3, etc.). I still would guess that some of that is on the horizon, and I can totally get checking in here to see periodically.

I just disagree that a ton of complaining online will affect Disney's decisions. It may affect their PR campaign a tad, but they'll make changes based on random sampling guest feedback. THAT I'd be willing to bet.

No I have no plans to return to Disney for a full vacation at the moment. And yes, I have tried FP+. I am now switching strictly to Universal, instead of the split trips I have none in the past. Now, that's not only because of FP+, because once Universal got the rights to Potter they automatically got more share of my money. I was raised a Disney kid, I've been going to Disney for many, many years, but Potter trumps all for me, so that is a huge factor there.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I do love Disney, I am just not currently thrilled with the product. I may decide to try it again at some point, and I might do the Christmas party when I am down for Universal in Dec. I just have no plans to book a full vacation at Disney again with the product being currently what it is.

I honestly don't get the whole idea that you need to "bail on the DisBoards" because currently one is not happy with everything Disney is doing. You can have issues with things and still love what Disney has meant to you in your life. You can still check into things and see if maybe something changes or you can find a way to work around your issues eventually.

Thanks. The "bail on the DISboards" bit is really what I would do if I was truly DONE with Disney in the way that some people seem to say or suggest they may be. As I said, everyone's different which is why I was curious where others were coming from.

 

[Angel Ariel]

You already have to factor in the time spent waiting for FP- tickets before. When guests say "I used to ride Dumbo with a bonus FP-" they aren't adding the extra time to run across the park, wait for a kiosk, then run back to wherever their family is waiting. That's easily 10 min lost. That run from Soarin to TT is a nighmare. It's far, down a thousand stairs, across the hottest park in the world, and then back up a thousand stairs. Cutting that entire chunk out of a vacation and instead chilling w the family and riding LWTL while we wait for our slot is so much nicer -- But oh no! Look at that now LWTL has longer lines cuz more ppl have more time on their hands and are picking up these Tier-2 rides. So you can't please everyone. Yet I can look at this system and easily identify why it is so much better, thus the frustration at ppl spinning it as such a negative for Disney. It's a positive for Disney in every way.

Again - you're assuming that the people you are discussing *were* running across the park like that.

but I guess discussion points that don't fit into this whole capacity discussion (like my previous response to your direct question to me), aren't worth discussing.

 

[MrInfinity]

And herein lies the fascinating study in human behavior. There was a bakery that I loved. They made the best cupcakes. Every Saturday I would buy half a dozen. Then word got out about how great the cupcakes were and soon more and more people wanted them. Soon thereafter, the bakery placed a limit of one cupcake per person in order to please a greater number of people. Now, one might question why the bakery would do this. After all, they are making and selling the exact same number of cupcakes and their profit is the same. But they feel the need to please as many people as possible because as a business, it is always better to have a broader base of repeat customers. But when viewed from my perspective, I was always a cupcake buyer. My enthusiasm hasn’t changed. But the raised enthusiasm level of others has materially impacted my ability to enjoy something that I discovered long ago and loved before all these other newbies. There is no mystery as to why I cannot get excited about a raised level of “general enthusiasm” when that raised level has directly cut into my personal enjoyment. Are individuals supposed to rejoice over a system that benefits many people if, at the same time, it works to their own detriment?

I think we more or less agree. The new system benefits the masses, which does not include you or me. That's not something for you to be excited about, but I don't fault Disney for doing it. It's the "right" business move. I can live within the new system and make it work for me. I'll learn to be creative in other ways to minimize waits.

 

[redrosesix]

You know, this whole 3<6 therefore FP+ is worse than FP- argument keeps being made... yet it's totally flawed. Let me ask you this:

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

Yes, the worst part of the change to the new system was giving the FP return line absolute priority over SB -- they created inefficiency which ultimately increased the waits in both lines. And then there is the crappy wifi, crappy app, and inconsistant MBs. These are all part of the new system, since they are necessary to use the new sytem.

Plus all of this -- Disney is asking me to start choosing rides and park days 60 days in advance. When we can't even really know what the weather is going to be like when we're packing for a trip.

Without going past your post, my answer is yes!

I don't want to preplan - we don't even always know what park we're going to in the mornings. I want to wander where we wish and gets fastpasses for whatever we're in the mood for at the moment. I don't want to fool with smartphones and Disney's fussy app any more than we have to! Even if we only have access to 3 fastpasses, I want the old flexibility back.

Not just "not all guests tour this way"... but seriously MOST guest do not tour this way. Think about it... If you used to pull 3 FP to TT in one day... How many people do you feel did that? 2000? If even that? If 2000 people pull 3 each, that is 6000 FP. TT only gives out a total of 9000 in a day! So if 2000 ppl pull 3, 1000 pull 2, and 1000 pull 1, that is all 9000 FPs taken by approximately 4000 people. That means the other 34,000 people visiting Epcot that day did not use FP for TT at all! It was extremely disproportionately unused.



It's not creating a sense of urgency. That is only the perception out here among the tiny subset of society that is disboards. The other rest of the world is using the app just fine. Simple fact is most people did want to ride Soarin or Test Track. They just never used FP-. Now, from the comfort of their home they are playing with their Mickey App as easily as they would play Candy Crush or Angry Birds and they're queuing up rides. It is so awesome in just how easy Disney made it to pick rides that everyone is doing it not out of obligation or having to schedule, but simply because it is really cool.

Because FP+ is so good, and so easy to use by everyone makes it so much less useful to you (and me) as individuals who used to essentially monopolize FP-.

It's not because Disney has ruined it -- it's that they've removed the inconvenience, difficulty, and general disinterest in using it that existed before, and now it's used by everyone.

Sorry -- not even going to bother arguing with you anymore. No matter what people say, you tell them they're wrong about their own touring style or their own family's choices. And you have been extremely condescending to most posters whose comments you disagree with.

Does this mean that you will not return? I'm truly curious about this. It goes to a conversation I was having on here with some fellow DISers the other day.

I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

Not saying that you are - just asking the question - but if I was truly DONE with Disney because of this, I'd plan other vacations in its place and certainly bail on DISboards. But everyone is different, of course...

We'll be back because our team does a competition there every year -- but I can't foresee any more 2 week onsite vacations given this and the many other changes since we started visiting there. Still, need to know what is going to be happening during our stay (all 3 days of it). Plus, I'm watching the Uni threads and we're planning a possible trip to DLP for the following year. WDW was one of the reasons we traveled to the USA at all -- since almost everything in the parks is now made in China, and as international visitors I think we're more and more undervalued each year, I'd be just as happy spending our money in another country.

 

[Angel Ariel]

This is what I don't get though - I don't like the new system but I don't hate Disney. Also despite that I don't like the new FP+ it really doesn't bug me that others do I don't understand why it's ok for those who like it to have all manner of descriptions for those who don't, along with describing our bad attitudes, inability to cope with change, selfishness because we don't want to share and don't want to wait. I actually want to be irritated about it, but I'm still too puzzled about why to actually get to a stage where I could feel annoyed.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Many people posting in this thread haven't claimed they're ending their Disney vacationing. I know I haven't

I didn't say everyone did, of course. But on this and other threads some certainly have, and I was curious why they'd return to DIS if that was the case.

Also, to the good conversation I had the other day on this subject, I think that despite the vocal dissatisfaction of many here and elsewhere, I am still not certain it will impact Disney's bottom line in any appreciable (or even noticeable) way -- I think most (not all) of these people will still spend a chunk of their vacation dollars with Disney. Maybe less, but likely more than made up for by the increased business they must clearly expect from instituting FP+ and MDE. Just my take.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

No, there's nothing rude about this statement at all.

As for how I tour that makes me not like FP+? Well, let's see...last March, during spring break season, we were able to get FPs for Buzz, Ariel, Space, Thunder, Dumbo. Of those, the only one we'd usually get a second FP for is Buzz, which we never saw run out of FPs. There was no "hyper running around the park" required, nor did we employ a FP runner. We had an infant at the time, and I was exclusively pumping (aka frequent breaks of 20-25 mins required), so our pace was very relaxed. We would get FPs for the land we were in and do other attractions in the area while we waited for the window to open. No trying to "mash everything in," as your post implies is required.

Now with only 3 FPs, we have to choose whether we're going to spend more time apart as a family (so that DH and I can both ride headliners using SB and RS, while keeping FP+ for rides for DD), or being together longer, but having a toddler in longer lines for more of the day. Said toddler is not mobile (i.e.not crawling, not standing, not walking) as she has delays, so DH and I would have to carry her in line. The idea of carrying her, even in a carrier, at the weight she is now for 45+ mins is not appealing. I wouldn't be physically able to do it by myself. I did not have such concerns with legacy FP.

We also like to park hop. One morning last March we got to DHS at rope drop, rode what we wanted to by noon. I think we ended up getting 1 FP for TSMM, and 2 for Star Tours. Then it was back to the resort for lunch. Then we went to AK in the afternoon, got FPs for Expedition Everest, Dinosaur and KS. That's no longer possible.



You don't currently have to plan everything in one shot, no....because 50% of guests can't access the system until they get to the park, and are limited to the kiosks even once they do. What happens to that availability when everyone, including offsite, has the ability to prebook, which it seems pretty clear is going to happen?

Off-topic, but seriously impressed by the exclusive pumping. That takes major dedication. I only had to for three weeks before DS could latch and that was not easy.

I keep getting pulled back into FP+ threads because I hate this idea that only "superuser" "run all over the park" "ride the headliners seven times" selfish "I don't want to wait" people don't like FP+. We all have different family circumstances and different ways of touring. Last time, we gave away the kids' fastpasses to BTMRR because both had motion issues that day. They say they won't ever ride it, so none of us have FP+ for it, but what if they change their minds when they see it running? Do I make DH load the app on his smartphone and hope that we have no technology issues and there is availability last-minute on spring break and cancel another planned FP+?

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

We'll be back because our team does a competition there every year -- but I can't foresee any more 2 week onsite vacations given this and the many other changes since we started visiting there. Still, need to know what is going to be happening during our stay (all 3 days of it). Plus, I'm watching the Uni threads and we're planning a possible trip to DLP for the following year. WDW was one of the reasons we traveled to the USA at all -- since almost everything in the parks is now made in China, and as international visitors I think we're more and more undervalued each year, I'd be just as happy spending our money in another country.

Thanks for responding, and I get that.

One observation: If I'm Disney and I lose you at WDW but gain you at DLP, what have I lost? That's assuming that happens, and I understand it's not a given.

With parks around the world, the P&R SBU is less dependent on the foreign market specifically for DL or WDW than it once was. Just a thought.

 

[jade1]

But why "pretend" something that cannot happen. This goes back to your teleportation theory. 38,000 people cannot enter that park simulataneously.
And 38,000 people cannot make Fast Passes disappear instantaneously. It takes time for the machines to process the requests. TSM machines were pushed to their absolute limit and never ran dry before 10:30-11:00. Greater demand does not translate to faster depletion. It only leads to greater disappointment in terms of the number of unfulfilled requests. But the people who get their passes will get them in the same amount of time, and that passage of time is not "immediate."

This is like the best explanation ever of what WDW (and really it's guests) has been facing IMO.

Disney probably locked 10 people in a room and said they can get out when they have a solution.

The guy that said "what's the problem? TSM rarely finishes it's nonstop printing until 10AM? and the average quest arrives well after that" -WAS NOT ALLOWED IN THE ROOM.

I think this is the whole point of FP+.

Adding more attractions would help, but not solve this problem, and not for years and years.

Implement the technology first, immediately does allow 38,000 people to enter the park virtually.

Then see if there is demand/popularity of the product. I think that's been answered with give me more more more, feed the beast.

Now start the expansion and use the system's capabilities, with expansion the tiers can go away, the QTY of FP+ increases, eventually you could plan 8 FP+'s per day or at least have the rolling 4th and allow repeats to go with the reserved 3.