Unresponsive NW plane - UPDATE: They were on their laptops (post #39, pg 3)

That is exactly what I think happened, too.

I'd also like to know why -with the technology we have now - a voice recorder only records for 30 minutes before taping over again. Geesh, I can get four hours of video on a tiny card that costs $25.



Well, quite frankly, there are several reasons. One is that the pilots don't necessarily want the companies they work for and the FAA being able to pull and listen to their conversations on routine flights. Having worked for an airline, I can completely understand and agree with that, too.

Also, the main reason for the recordings is for accident investigations. In an accident, anything that went wrong probably happened within the last 30 minutes, so the rest is just not needed.

Finally, many of these planes are old. While navigation systems and other things that really do make flying safer have been upgraded, this has not. Also, having a longer voice recording would not make flying safer. It could answer questions after something happens but not prevent anything from happening, so why spend the money to upgrade it?

Anyway, I'd put my money on them falling asleep.
 
Well, quite frankly, there are several reasons. One is that the pilots don't necessarily want the companies they work for and the FAA being able to pull and listen to their conversations on routine flights. Having worked for an airline, I can completely understand and agree with that, too.

Also, the main reason for the recordings is for accident investigations. In an accident, anything that went wrong probably happened within the last 30 minutes, so the rest is just not needed.

Finally, many of these planes are old. While navigation systems and other things that really do make flying safer have been upgraded, this has not. Also, having a longer voice recording would not make flying safer. It could answer questions after something happens but not prevent anything from happening, so why spend the money to upgrade it?

Anyway, I'd put my money on them falling asleep.

Why? Most of my places of emplyyment have had surveillance in place to prevent employee shenanigans.

I agree with your second part, but WHY couldn't they have at least taken turns?? Isn't that what a co-pilot is for...to spell the pilot if needed? Yikes. I see two airline pilots on the unemployment line really soon.
 
Why? Most of my places of emplyyment have had surveillance in place to prevent employee shenanigans.

I agree with your second part, but WHY couldn't they have at least taken turns?? Isn't that what a co-pilot is for...to spell the pilot if needed? Yikes. I see two airline pilots on the unemployment line really soon.

It is very difficult to explain life at a major airline -- especially a unionized one. It is very cut throat and very political. The company would use these conversations for disciplinary purposes for all sorts of things. For example, if a pilot calls in sick, the company could then pull the recording from his previous trips to see if he talked about going anywhere or having anything to do on those days and didn't want to work. That is just one example. I could give more but then I know I'd sound paranoid. Thing is I've seen it. I used to work for an airline (Dh is still there) and even walked a picket line, so I saw the things both the company and union could (and would) do.

As to the second part.... on longer flights, pilots are allowed to sleep. However, the airlines are required to place an additional relief pilot on those legs. On these shorter, domestic flights, pilots should not be sleeping. They generally alternate each leg between flying and operating the radio. The one working the radio is there to double check the one flying hasn't missed anything, and of course, should one get sick (or even just have to go to the bathroom) the other can take over completely. In an emergency, the captain takes over and calls all the shots.

It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out. I guess becoming engrossed in a heated argument is the lesser of the 2 evils and that is why the pilots are going with that story, and truthfully, I don't know if it can be disproved. I also don't know if it is something they could lose their jobs AND their license over though.
 

Does the CVR only record 30 seconds and then reset and tape OVER what was already recorded, or does it record 30 minutes, pause 30 minutes, record 30 minutes, pause 30 minutes and so on?

Seems stupid to erase and record constantly...apparantly a whole lot can happen in a multi-hour long flight. Might be nice to have more than one single half hour of info.

I had thought that b/c for a crash, the inicdents leading up to the crash would be covered in the 30 minutes prior.

I don't think it was intended to document all the comings and goings of the flight crew in normal circumstances.
 
The jets that were on standby for this incident were out of Madison, WI and Duluth, MN (I believe). They wouldn't have come from upstate NY.

The plane flew into Northwestern WI before turning around and landing.

I know that has been reported, but I can tell you our f-16s took off that night in that time frame. Coincidence, back up,....?!?!?

The last time they took off like that was the day of the Northeast blackout - that I can rememeber.
 
I know that has been reported, but I can tell you our f-16s took off that night in that time frame. Coincidence, back up,....?!?!?

The last time they took off like that was the day of the Northeast blackout - that I can rememeber.
My DH and I were at a Target around that exact same time, and as we were walking in, we saw two fighter jets flying in the direction of our airport here... so, it is clear they were scrambling ALL OVER... remember, they thought possible terrrorism... and we all remember that not only one plane in one location was involved in 9/11.
 
My DH and I were at a Target around that exact same time, and as we were walking in, we saw two fighter jets flying in the direction of our airport here... so, it is clear they were scrambling ALL OVER... remember, they thought possible terrrorism... and we all remember that not only one plane in one location was involved in 9/11.


that's what I was thinking...that they would be all over!:)

the article I read said that they had "scrambled" jets (as in put them on alert), but none had actually taken off. Is this the correct use of "scrambled", I always thought that meant to actually take off.

Also, one of the things that alerted us was the jets hit their after burners (the other was the closeness of the passneger jet) ...DH says there are rules about this and that they do not normally do so over areas like ours - I believe our guys usually head straight for Lake Ontario and then do so. Does anyone know better than I do about this stuff?

:wizard:
 
that's what I was thinking...that they would be all over!:)

the article I read said that they had "scrambled" jets (as in put them on alert), but none had actually taken off. Is this the correct use of "scrambled", I always thought that meant to actually take off.

Also, one of the things that alerted us was the jets hit their after burners (the other was the closeness of the passneger jet) ...DH says there are rules about this and that they do not normally do so over areas like ours - I believe our guys usually head straight for Lake Ontario and then do so. Does anyone know better than I do about this stuff?

:wizard:

The passenger jet you saw would have not been the "missing" one. That flight originated in California, so came in from the west. It lost radio contact while it passed through the Denver control area. Denver then passed it on to Minnesota as a non-responsive (wrong terminology, but I am not a pilot) flight. It was never in the NY area.

So, if the jets were following the passenger jet you saw, it was an unrelated incident.
 
A "scramble" is when fighters are given clearance to takeoff for a specified target. It does not mean they have departed necessarily. They are out and ready to go. Once the scramble is coordinated between military and air traffic control the pilots are cleared. There is a clearance profile for their departure and altitude as cleared by ATC. ATC must block that profile and altitude until the planes depart and in contact with ATC for further clearance towards the target.

As far as the NY jets I could see the military putting them in the air based on past experience, however that would not be a scramble. Just putting them on the ready. Also could have just be coincidence, and they were on a routine flight.
 
The passenger jet you saw would have not been the "missing" one. That flight originated in California, so came in from the west. It lost radio contact while it passed through the Denver control area. Denver then passed it on to Minnesota as a non-responsive (wrong terminology, but I am not a pilot) flight. It was never in the NY area.

So, if the jets were following the passenger jet you saw, it was an unrelated incident.

oh i know that - sorry if I was unclear! I know the passenger jet in our area was unrelated, but I don't think the F-16s taking off were.:)

I was just saying that A) it was unusual for the F-16s to take off with a passenger jet just having passed overhead B) that night, before we knew of this particular incident, we thought it might have involved that passenger jet.
 
A "scramble" is when fighters are given clearance to takeoff for a specified target. It does not mean they have departed necessarily. They are out and ready to go. Once the scramble is coordinated between military and air traffic control the pilots are cleared. There is a clearance profile for their departure and altitude as cleared by ATC. ATC must block that profile and altitude until the planes depart and in contact with ATC for further clearance towards the target.

As far as the NY jets I could see the military putting them in the air based on past experience, however that would not be a scramble. Just putting them on the ready. Also could have just be coincidence, and they were on a routine flight.

thank you for clearing up "scramble" for me!!!:)
 
This was on Yahoo today: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

MINNEAPOLIS – The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says he and the captain were not sleeping or arguing in the cockpit but he wouldn't explain their lapse in response and the detour.

"It was not a serious event, from a safety issue," pilot Richard Cole said late Friday in front of his Salem, Ore., home. "I would tell you more, but I've already told you way too much."

.....

We were not asleep; we were not having an argument; we were not having a fight," Cole said, but would not discuss why it took so long for him and the flight's captain, Timothy B. Cheney, of Gig Harbor, Wash., to respond to radio calls.

"I can tell you that airplanes lose contact with the ground people all the time. It happens. Sometimes they get together right away; sometimes it takes awhile before one or the other notices that they are not in contact."

Uhhh..OK, "We weren't having a fight" and "I would tell you more, but I've already told you way too much." Why do I keep hearing the Love Boat theme playing in my head?
 
Oh my crap...I think they might have been gettin' it on in there!

that was my guess, right after they interviewed the one captain and he said they wern't sleeping, and were not arguing about anything.


...skyrockets in FLIGHT..afternoon delight...
 
Oh my crap...I think they might have been gettin' it on in there!

I'm with you Jennasis, that's the thought that just popped into my head too...I bet the FAA & FBI will be going over that cockpit with a fine-toothed comb.

The supposed 'fight about safety rules' or procedures or whatever :lmao:...
*If* they were fighting, is the cockpit sound-proofed? Wouldn't the front-cabin attendants have heard this heated argument? And even if they *were* arguing about safety protocols...REALLY?!? REALLY!? - You two yahoos were supposedly fighting about procedures and THAT MAKES OVERFLYING YOUR DESTINATION AIRPORT by 80 or 90 minutes A-OK?!? I don't think so Bucky.

Idiots should be barred from ever flying a plane ever again, I don't care WHY they overshot the airport by however many miles it was.

Same goes for the plane that landed on the taxi-runway this past week...unless that plane was directed there by Traffic Control, the pilot should also lose his license, he's lucky that a planeload of people and ground personnel aren't all DEAD. Moron.

agnes!
 
I'm with you Jennasis, that's the thought that just popped into my head too...I bet the FAA & FBI will be going over that cockpit with a fine-toothed comb.

The supposed 'fight about safety rules' or procedures or whatever :lmao:...
*If* they were fighting, is the cockpit sound-proofed? Wouldn't the front-cabin attendants have heard this heated argument? And even if they *were* arguing about safety protocols...REALLY?!? REALLY!? - You two yahoos were supposedly fighting about procedures and THAT MAKES OVERFLYING YOUR DESTINATION AIRPORT by 80 or 90 minutes A-OK?!? I don't think so Bucky.

Idiots should be barred from ever flying a plane ever again, I don't care WHY they overshot the airport by however many miles it was.

Same goes for the plane that landed on the taxi-runway this past week...unless that plane was directed there by Traffic Control, the pilot should also lose his license, he's lucky that a planeload of people and ground personnel aren't all DEAD. Moron.

agnes!

Maybe the safety argument went something like... "Oh Captain! Do you think it's safe to do that in flight?"
 
Oh my crap...I think they might have been gettin' it on in there!

Ummmmm...that isn't appropriate in ANY workplace.:scared1:

And sad for them that whatever tooks place that is officially accepted will become public record, won't it???


The mile high club should not have open enrollment for those who control the safety of the flight for goodness sakes!!!
 
OK, here's the answer:

No fight, no heated argument, no sleeping, and no, um, hanky panky.


THEY WERE ON THEIR LAPTOPS, CHECKING SCHEDULES

and they are likely to be suspended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/northw...discussing-scheduling/Story?id=8920291&page=1


Northwest Pilots Who Missed Airport Were on Laptops, Discussing Scheduling
The Pilots Violated Company Policy; FAA is Expected to Suspend Their Licenses
By SCOTT MAYEROWITZ
Oct. 26, 2009
The two pilots of the Northwest Airlines flight last week that missed its airport by 150 miles were apparently using their personal laptops to review scheduling as air traffic controllers repeatedly tried to reach them, the National Transportation Safety Board said.

Investigators try to determine what happened in the cockpit of wayward flight.The use of personal laptops in the cockpit violates airline policy, according to the NTSB, which issued a statement today on the incident after interviewing the pilots.

Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position until a flight attendant, Barbara Logan, called about five minutes before they were scheduled to land and asked about their estimated time of arrival. It was only then that the captain realized they had passed the airport.
"I just called them and said when are we landing, and that was it," Logan told ABC News.

She said she didn't know anything was wrong, but just wanted to find out when the plane was landing. Logan said she didn't have a clue about what happened in the cockpit and the pilots didn't tell her.

Flight 188 had 144 passengers, two pilots and three flight attendants on board. It landed safely about an hour after its originally scheduled time.

The FAA is expected to either suspend or revoke the licenses of the pilots as early as Tuesday.

For one hour and 18 minutes Wednesday night the pilots -- flying at 37,000 feet above sea level between San Diego and Minneapolis -- were radio silent as air traffic controllers at times tried to reach the cockpit.

As the event unfolded, concern was high among air traffic controllers, who repeatedly attempted to establish contact during the incident, using multiple methods, the air traffic controllers union told ABC News. Eventually, controllers asked other planes in the air to attempt to contact the Northwest plane, a method that the union said ultimately proved successful.

Federal counterterrorism agencies treated the stray jetliner as a serious threat. Fighter jets were placed on alert, though not put in the sky.

In separate interviews with the NTSB, Capt. Timothy B. Cheney and First Officer Richard I. Cole, told investigators they were in a "concentrated period of discussion" over a new monthly crew flight scheduling system in place as a result of the merger of Delta and Northwest. Both accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. Cole, who was more familiar with the procedure, was providing instruction to Cheney, the NTSB said.
The pilots said they lost track of time and were using cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications, not their headsets.

Initially, there was speculation that the pilots had fallen asleep in the cockpit. Both pilots dismissed that, saying there were not fatigued. Each had commuted to the flight, but they had a 19-hour layover in San Diego before arriving at work. They both told investigators that they did not doze during the flight and there was no heated argument.

Airport police who met the plane at the plane at the gate asked the pilots to submit to a alcohol breath test. Cheney and Cole both voluntarily agreed and the tests showed no traces of alcohol, according to the police report.

Capt. Cheney, 53, was hired in 1985 and has about 20,000 hours of total flight time including about 10,000 hours in an Airbus A-320, the plane he was flying the night in question. About 7,000 of those hours were as pilot in command of the A-320.

First Officer Cole, 54, was hired in 1997. His total flight time is about 11,000 hours and he has about 5,000 hours on the A-320.

As a point of comparison, Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger and First Officer Jeffrey Skiles, the US Airways pilots who made an amazing emergency landing in the Hudson River, respectively had 19,633 and 15,000 flight hours.

Both Northwest pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation and neither reported any ongoing medical conditions.

The plane had an older, 30-minute cockpit voice recorder. The device, which loops every 30 minutes, only captured the pilots' decent into Minneapolis and taxi to the gate. The 1 hour and 18 minutes in question was recorded over as the tape routinely looped. Newer cockpit voice recorders capture the last two hours of flight.
 
I bet those laptops are impounded and the forensic computer techs are analyzing every key-stroke for the past several days.

And answer me this Batman...would YOU want these two piloting any plane in the skies over the US? Never mind the obvious question about choosing (or not) to be on a plane that either one is flying... how about not wanting them to be in the skies above my head?

agnes
 












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