United Auto Workers Union

[JimFitz]

Alot of talk about not having a college degree.....

It's important, I agree. However, let's not forget that some of the richest....in fact the richest man in the world does not have a degree.

 

[minnie61650]

We own our own company. We have 28 employees and are profitable and have been since our 6th month in business. If all of a sudden our business tanks, will the US government "bail" me out??? I don't think so........

.

The difference is you own a small company. Not a major company.

DH also own's his own multi-million dollar business (for over 40 years). We have over 50 employees and if his company tanked there would be no bail out for him. Over 50 employees would lose their income.

If one of the big 3 American auto goes out of business it could mean over 1 million jobs lost.

I think 1 million lost jobs lost would effect our US enconomy quite a bit more than 20 some or 50 some lost jobs.

JMHO

 

[dvcgirl]

The difference is you own a small company. Not a major company.

DH also own's his own multi-million dollar business (for over 40 years). We have over 50 employess and if his company tanked there would be no bail out for him. Over 50 employees would lose their income.

If one of the big 3 American auto goes out of business it could mean over 1million jobs lost.

I think 1 million lost jobs lost would affect our US enconomy quite a bit more that 20 some or 50 some.

JMHO

Right, but we're bailing out a company here (speaking of GM specifically) that has lost 50 billion dollars in the last three years. With the losses they are incurring now, they will have to cut very deeply just to survive (even with billions in government loans).

Deutsche Bank came out today with a sell on GM stock and put a future price of *0* on the stock....that's ZERO. The stock lost another 25% in value today.

So they're looking for 50 Billion just to survive....they may not survive....and when exactly to the taxpayers get their money back? They've *lost* 50 Billion in the last three years.....two of those three years with "easy credit for everyone".....and still they can't turn that company around. We'll never get that money back.......just send the checks directly to the employees.

How about the homebuilders? They're not selling houses these days, lots of layoffs, lots of suppliers out of business and more layoffs......should be send them checks too?

AIG got 85 Billion awhile back and we got 80% of their assets. That wasn't good enough because about a month later they needed another 38 Billion....that was a pretty quiet deal. Today it was announced that the whole deal was restructured and the number is now up to 150 Billion dollars with much more favorable terms for AIG as far as repayment and interest rate. None of that is part of the 700 Billion bailout....this is just money from the Fed that we're supposed to get back. How long until they come back looking for more? Not long.

Where oh where does it end?

 

[rie'smom]

Bush should leave this baby as a legacy for his successor. Let him deal with it or not deal with it.

 

[JimFitz]

Right, but we're bailing out a company here (speaking of GM specifically) that has lost 50 billion dollars in the last three years. With the losses they are incurring now, they will have to cut very deeply just to survive (even with billions in government loans).

Deutsche Bank came out today with a sell on GM stock and put a future price of *0* on the stock....that's ZERO. The stock lost another 25% in value today.

So they're looking for 50 Billion just to survive....they may not survive....and when exactly to the taxpayers get their money back? They've *lost* 50 Billion in the last three years.....two of those three years with "easy credit for everyone".....and still they can't turn that company around. We'll never get that money back.......just send the checks directly to the employees.

How about the homebuilders? They're not selling houses these days, lots of layoffs, lots of suppliers out of business and more layoffs......should be send them checks too?

AIG got 85 Billion awhile back and we got 80% of their assets. That wasn't good enough because about a month later they needed another 38 Billion....that was a pretty quiet deal. Today it was announced that the whole deal was restructured and the number is now up to 150 Billion dollars with much more favorable terms for AIG as far as repayment and interest rate. None of that is part of the 700 Billion bailout....this is just money from the Fed that we're supposed to get back. How long until they come back looking for more? Not long.

Where oh where does it end?

We may not agree on much, but I agree with you here. These bailouts are getting nuts!

 

[Csaks]

Right, but we're bailing out a company here (speaking of GM specifically) that has lost 50 billion dollars in the last three years. With the losses they are incurring now, they will have to cut very deeply just to survive (even with billions in government loans).

Deutsche Bank came out today with a sell on GM stock and put a future price of *0* on the stock....that's ZERO. The stock lost another 25% in value today.

So they're looking for 50 Billion just to survive....they may not survive....and when exactly to the taxpayers get their money back? They've *lost* 50 Billion in the last three years.....two of those three years with "easy credit for everyone".....and still they can't turn that company around. We'll never get that money back.......just send the checks directly to the employees.

How about the homebuilders? They're not selling houses these days, lots of layoffs, lots of suppliers out of business and more layoffs......should be send them checks too?

AIG got 85 Billion awhile back and we got 80% of their assets. That wasn't good enough because about a month later they needed another 38 Billion....that was a pretty quiet deal. Today it was announced that the whole deal was restructured and the number is now up to 150 Billion dollars with much more favorable terms for AIG as far as repayment and interest rate. None of that is part of the 700 Billion bailout....this is just money from the Fed that we're supposed to get back. How long until they come back looking for more? Not long.

Where oh where does it end?

Is this the same company that gave out big bonuses and went on some $400 000 spa thing for the big wigs?

 

[dvcgirl]

We may not agree on much, but I agree with you here. These bailouts are getting nuts!

You see, I really am a fiscal conservative.

There just aren't many of us left these days.....on either side of the aisle. It's so freaking frustrating to me......it really is.

DH and I have been in the "cash equivalent" option in all invesments since Nov of 2007....and I see so many incredibly vulnerable cracks in this nightmare economy that I don't know when we'll get back in.

There's another "Lehman" type event coming.....you can just feel it.

 

[dvcgirl]

Is this the same company that gave out big bonuses and went on some $400 000 spa thing for the big wigs?

Yes, that would be AIG.

 

[JimFitz]

Is this the same company that gave out big bonuses and went on some $400 000 spa thing for the big wigs?

Yes! I work in a very large Fortune 500 corporation and was talking to some colleagues. They thought it was ok for the execs to go on the trip since most of it was probably already paid for!??? I am astounded by this mindset. I don't care if it was almost all paid for, all non essential business travel would stop immediately. Corp America is a little crazy sometimes.


I edited to add that these companies probably wont see any bonuses this year and if they do, it will be very very small and only to retain "key" talent.

 

[dvcgirl]

Bush should leave this baby as a legacy for his successor. Let him deal with it or not deal with it.

He can't.....they'll file for BK by Christmas if they don't get this money.

The theory is that if GM files.....that nobody will want to buy cars from them. People will fear that the dealers will go under and that they won't be there to service the cars or honor the warranties.

So, if that's the case, does anyone feel good *now* about buying from GM? Even if I wanted to buy a GM car, I'd think twice about it now.

 

[gmboy95]

These would be the same auto companies that helped win ww2.

It would be MILLIONS of jobs lost, not thousands.

Benefits have already been cut by Ford and GM. I don't know about Chrysler but I am assuming the same. This is white collar and blue collar benefits.

It would be the nail in the coffin of this country.

Well said!!!!

 

[minnie61650]

Right, but we're bailing out a company here (speaking of GM specifically) that has lost 50 billion dollars in the last three years. With the losses they are incurring now, they will have to cut very deeply just to survive (even with billions in government loans).

Deutsche Bank came out today with a sell on GM stock and put a future price of *0* on the stock....that's ZERO. The stock lost another 25% in value today.

So they're looking for 50 Billion just to survive....they may not survive....and when exactly to the taxpayers get their money back? They've *lost* 50 Billion in the last three years.....two of those three years with "easy credit for everyone".....and still they can't turn that company around. We'll never get that money back.......just send the checks directly to the employees.

How about the homebuilders? They're not selling houses these days, lots of layoffs, lots of suppliers out of business and more layoffs......should be send them checks too?

AIG got 85 Billion awhile back and we got 80% of their assets. That wasn't good enough because about a month later they needed another 38 Billion....that was a pretty quiet deal. Today it was announced that the whole deal was restructured and the number is now up to 150 Billion dollars with much more favorable terms for AIG as far as repayment and interest rate. None of that is part of the 700 Billion bailout....this is just money from the Fed that we're supposed to get back. How long until they come back looking for more? Not long.

Where oh where does it end?

I can understand where you are coming from and I highly respect your personal opion.

I also did not agree with the bailout bill but I cannot understand how AIG and other coropations included in the bail out bill are concidered more important to our economy than the American auto industry.

I think a lot of us are forgeting that more than 10% of jobs are tied to the American auto industry. At the present time the unemployment is 6.5% .

Add another 10% to that and our unemployment will be at 16.5 % .

With that number of people out of work there will be a lot less retail shopping.
More stores will go out of business and employees will be let go.

Less people will go to the movie theaters so some of those will close.
More people unemployed.

Less movies will be made...more people unemployed.

Less people will be able to go to WDW.

DVC will tank and owners will not be able to get 10 cents on the dollar when try to sell out.

Trickle down bankrupcy....that is what we are talking about.

JMHO

 

[dvcgirl]

I can understand where you are coming from and I highly respect your personal opion.

I also did not agree with the bailout bill but I cannot understand how AIG and other coropations included in the bail out bill are concidered more important to our economy than the American auto industry.

I think a lot of us are forgeting that more than 10% of jobs are tied to the American auto industry. At the present time the unemployment is 6.5% .

Add another 10% to that and our unemployment will be at 16.5 % .

With that number of people out of work there will be a lot less retail shopping.
More stores will go out of business and employees will be let go.

Less people will go to the movie theaters so some of those will close.
More people unemployed.

Less movies will be made...more people unemployed.

Less people will be able to go to WDW.

DVC will tank and owners will not be able to get 10 cents on the dollar when try to sell out.

Trickle down bankrupcy....that is what we are talking about.

JMHO

I completely respect your opinion as well, and I really truly understand the problem. It's a giant mess.

One question though....is that number truly accurate.....10% of jobs are tied to the US auto industry? I've read that they are responsible for 2.5 million jobs between the big three and all of their suppliers.

I think that if one of the big three disappears....that there will be serious pain, but it may be something that is coming one way or the other. When the market returns, the other remaining US automakers will pick up the slack.

I'll tell you what, the financial markets are not coming back to anything *close* to what we had in the past five years.....not even close. As it is, the banks are being flooded with liquidity.....but they are hoarding this money....and not lending it. As long as the banks continue to shrink their balance sheets, they'll hang onto cash. They have capital requirements that must be met.

So, this shuts off at least 1/3 of the potential buyers in their market. And...while gas is *way* down, people are still shaken from seeing $4.00 a gallon and most think it will be back soon enough. SUV and truck sales will be down for years.

In all honesty, under the *best* conditions, GM had a tough row to hoe.....now, even with 50 Billion it seems damn near impossible for them to survive under current conditions. They may need to file for BK protection and emerge as a much smaller entity.

We, the US Taxpayers, could end up throwing Billions and Billions of dollars at that mess and simply never get that money back.

If they're not viable companies in the best of times, why should we save them in the worst of times.

 

[dvcgirl]

I can understand where you are coming from and I highly respect your personal opion.

I also did not agree with the bailout bill but I cannot understand how AIG and other coropations included in the bail out bill are concidered more important to our economy than the American auto industry.

JMHO

The only reason we're bailing out AIG is because they are so interconnected with sooooo many financial institutions all around the world. They "let" Lehman go, and we nearly went over the edge with a complete market crash that first week of October.

If AIG goes, the fear is we go over head first. We bailed them out due to counter party risk.

 

[declansdad]

The difference is you own a small company. Not a major company.

DH also own's his own multi-million dollar business (for over 40 years). We have over 50 employees and if his company tanked there would be no bail out for him. Over 50 employees would lose their income.

If one of the big 3 American auto goes out of business it could mean over 1 million jobs lost.

I think 1 million lost jobs lost would effect our US enconomy quite a bit more than 20 some or 50 some lost jobs.

JMHO

The problem with your reasoning is that if GM went under, many of the job lost would also come from many of these small companies.

 

[Csaks]

Yes! I work in a very large Fortune 500 corporation and was talking to some colleagues. They thought it was ok for the execs to go on the trip since most of it was probably already paid for!??? I am astounded by this mindset. I don't care if it was almost all paid for, all non essential business travel would stop immediately. Corp America is a little crazy sometimes.


I edited to add that these companies probably wont see any bonuses this year and if they do, it will be very very small and only to retain "key" talent.

Paid for or not the optics stink.

I don't understand, you guys and gals paid for a bail out through your taxes and there are no conditions attached to all this money? I mean it seems like business as usual, keep doing the things that got us into this mess and Uncle Sam will bail us out even if they screw it up again because they can't afford not to? Let go of the people that got them into the mess and bring in someone to clean it up, if it is possible.

Bonuses, I've only ever received a bonus when I or my co-workers have gone above and beyond our normal job, mostly meeting time lines that were tight to begin with. Why is it normal for execs on both sides of the border to receive a bonus for just showing up, reguardless how to company is doing?

I heard the feds up here are seriously thinking of helping bail out the Big Three up here, so my tax dollars will be given to companies who couldn't manage a wh*re house in a prison. But I'm sure they would get their bonuses anyway .

 

[minnie61650]

....One question though....is that number truly accurate.....10% of jobs are tied to the US auto industry?
.

about 1 in 10 which would be about 10%

more than 14 million U.S. workers -- about 1 in 10 -- can draw a line from their job back to an auto factory or office worker, according to CAR.

Link to full article:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081103/AUTO01/811030343/1148/rss25

 

[minnie61650]

Another interesting point that article makes is:

McAlinden said the resulting drop in tax income and other losses over three years would far exceed the amount being sought in government aid.

Link:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081103/AUTO01/811030343/1148/rss25

 

[dvcgirl]

about 1 in 10 which would be about 10%



Link to full article:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081103/AUTO01/811030343/1148/rss25

One in ten.....but how directly are they linked? Would that be auto insurers....car wash operators....everything linked to *any* type of auto, and not just one made in the US.

Here's the thing, we could talk about this til the cows come home. They'll get their bailout, and it will be a *big* one.....

The talk of tying this bailout money to green technology is silly talk. That takes years and years to develop....and it takes billions of dollars to develop. They need billions now just to keep the lights on.

Oh well, DH and I will just keep doing what we've been doing....living way beneath our means and saving as much as we possibly can while enjoying life as much as we possibly can . We're just waiting for the day when our government has spent itself into so much debt that we can't service our debt.....we've got another 15-20 years until we get there. If we're lucky.

Think what we're going through now is fun? Just wait......

 

[floridafam]

I don't know what to make of the situation. My Dad works for AC Delco so if GM goes, AC Delco won't be far behind (they are already up for sale.)

We know quite a few people who work for GM and they all have the same mentality (at least the ones that we know.) They want EVERYTHING and their union gets it for them.

I never realized until last year that GM paid for health care for it's retired employees. I think they lost that benefit this year. Most of them qualified for Medicare anyway.

What do they expect GM to do? One woman on the news actually said "they owe me. I'm not paying for my health care."

Everyone from the assembly line worker to the upper management needs to change.

I can't imagine what Michigan will be like if GM tanks. It's so bad there right now and somehow it's all George Bush's fault and not Governor Granholm's.