United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[bcla]

They're still either giving you the option of attending the movie or credit for later down the line. Like the airlines do. And everyone has said- overselling is a common practice on all the US airlines. That's the problem. Great that New Zealand air doesn't do it. But I bet at least some airlines flying to NZ do.

My point was that getting involuntarily bumped can't be predicted by the passenger anymore than mechanical issues or weather can. Last flight was cancelled because a bunch of other flights were cancelled because it was taking "too long" to deice planes. The ladies at the customer service counter were pleasantly surprised when I was polite and asked to be put on an even later flight than what they wanted to put me on. I had accepted the delay, I mean what else could I do, but I wasn't going to fly out at 4am. I'm willing to accept that all parties were at fault- but the guy refused to leave when security asked him to.

Sure. When I got put out for my kid acting up, I was given a couple of "reentry passes". Later we used them to watch a 3D movie although the passes said that would cost extra. They said it was OK. I'd gotten something similar before because I left a movie because some older hard of hearing customers were yelling at each other on how to use their assisted listening devices. I got a ticket that was valid for reentry any time, for any movie. It was a matinee, but the passes were valid any time. I think I got one of those passes once after I complained about not getting enough change, after the movie. It was the last showing of the night and the register was closed. However, they balanced the register and noticed the discrepancy. Since they couldn't pull out the maybe $4 I was owed, I was given a reentry pass for any movie.

 

[Westcoastwild]

NOPE, Westcoast, I too feel that this is completely wrong.
A more truthful and accurate analogy would be:
You bought and paid for your ticket...
You are in your seat, with your $$$$$$ popcorn and drink..
Staff calls police and assaults you and drags you out, because their friend wanted to see the movie, this showing... 'now'....

Necessary flight crew is necessary flight crew. Not flight crew on vacation, flying for leisure purposes, so nope, not the same thing. Maybe I'm just a push over though- if the movie staff asked me to leave, I'd leave. I'd then complain until I got a reimbursement and an apology if I felt it was unjustified. But I wouldn't argue with staff until they felt the need to call police to arrest me for trespassing. for one thing, I think that opens the customer up to the risk of no compemsation. This guy delayed the flight for three hours! Passengers apparently thought it was appropriate to abuse the staff members who were flying to their next place of duty; employes that were on a schedule and under orders. if I'd been on that flight, I probably would have been offended by security and staff overreaction, but seriously, the guy could have just gracefully accepted that the situation was beyond his control and then raised hell at customer service. instead, he chose to be removed by stretcher, injured, and delayed the entire flight. I don't think overselling is fair but I can't feel too much sympathy for the doctor...who is apparently a well educated professional that chose to act like a toddler.

i feel like I should back away from the computer at this point but hey, I have refreshments.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Sure. When I got put out for my kid acting up, I was given a couple of "reentry passes". Later we used them to watch a 3D movie although the passes said that would cost extra. They said it was OK. I'd gotten something similar before because I left a movie because some older hard of hearing customers were yelling at each other on how to use their assisted listening devices. I got a ticket that was valid for reentry any time, for any movie. It was a matinee, but the passes were valid any time. I think I got one of those passes once after I complained about not getting enough change, after the movie. It was the last showing of the night and the register was closed. However, they balanced the register and noticed the discrepancy. Since they couldn't pull out the maybe $4 I was owed, I was given a reentry pass for any movie.

Yep. Complaining generally works! Really nice they gave you passes the rime you left due to the yelling. It would not have occured to me to ask.

 

[RedAngie]

If someone is removed from a flight because of something suspicious, they will typically go search for that passenger's luggage. If someone is checked-in with luggage and doesn't board the flight, it's standard operating procedure to search for the luggage and remove it. It should be obvious why.

It's pretty common for luggage to arrive at a different time. I've sent my in-laws to the airport past the 45 minute cutoff. They slapped "late check-in" on the luggage and said that they couldn't guarantee that it would arrive on the same flight.

All that makes sense. In this case, if any of the IDB passengers had checked bags, I'm guessing it wasn't necessary to remove them; they could retrieve the bags when they reached Louisville. If those passengers INSISTED on having their checked luggage back, I'm guessing United would have complied.

 

[bcla]

Necessary flight crew is necessary flight crew. Not flight crew on vacation, flying for leisure purposes, so nope, not the same thing. Maybe I'm just a push over though- if the movie staff asked me to leave, I'd leave. I'd then complain until I got a reimbursement and an apology if I felt it was unjustified. But I wouldn't argue with staff until they felt the need to call police to arrest me for trespassing. for one thing, I think that opens the customer up to the risk of no compemsation. This guy delayed the flight for three hours! Passengers apparently thought it was appropriate to abuse the staff members who were flying to their next place of duty; employes that were on a schedule and under orders. if I'd been on that flight, I probably would have been offended by security and staff overreaction, but seriously, the guy could have just gracefully accepted that the situation was beyond his control and then raised hell at customer service. instead, he chose to be removed by stretcher, injured, and delayed the entire flight. I don't think overselling is fair but I can't feel too much sympathy for the doctor...who is apparently a well educated professional that chose to act like a toddler.

i feel like I should back away from the computer at this point but hey, I have refreshments.

I certainly don't agree with how it was handled. I would have recommended that they simply refuse to depart until the selected passenger walks off under his own power. That way the other passengers yell at him for holding up the plane.

It may sound strange, but nobody is entitled to be on a particular flight based on buying a ticket. It sounds weird, but I have a travel agent relative, and that was one of the big things that I understood about the travel industry. Overbooking is pretty common, even in hotels. However, they'll typically "walk" a guest to another hotel (where they pay) and perhaps provide compensation like a meal voucher and a future stay. Most of the time it's free since it's a hassle.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

So question,

how much does it take to get u off the plane? i think if it reached $1000 + free night + free flight next day...

They should have upped the price until they had takers. No matter what that ended up being, it won't come close to lost sales and a lawsuit!!

HORRIBLE planning and PR. Just wow.

 

[bcla]

Yep. Complaining generally works! Really nice they gave you passes the rime you left due to the yelling. It would not have occured to me to ask.

I wasn't angry about it, and it was a mostly empty theater during a matinee. It's amazing how well things can turn out if a complaint is lodged politely. However, I've gotten passes when I left and complained, and when I was kicked out.

The time we were kicked out, a customer service rep met us outside the auditorium and said "I see you're having a bad day". It was Captain America: Civil War, and my kid was 4 at the time. It was also kind of strange, where my kid asked where it was, I whispered, but it didn't register. And it was pretty quick how other patrons turned on me. I get that they were upset, and rightly so. However, someone who was nicely chatting with me earlier piled on after about three others started yelling. I was doing my best since I wanted to take my kid, who still wanted to see the movie. I was actually willing to leave and eat the cost.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I certainly don't agree with how it was handled. I would have recommended that they simply refuse to depart until the selected passenger walks off under his own power. That way the other passengers yell at him for holding up the plane.

It may sound strange, but nobody is entitled to be on a particular flight based on buying a ticket. It sounds weird, but I have a travel agent relative, and that was one of the big things that I understood about the travel industry. Overbooking is pretty common, even in hotels. However, they'll typically "walk" a guest to another hotel (where they pay) and perhaps provide compensation like a meal voucher and a future stay. Most of the time it's free since it's a hassle.

Oooh. Peer pressure, I love it. of course, then people would blame the staff for not forcing the guy off the plane!

Yep. Hotel overselling has happened to me and I hate it. It's not always the hotel's fault either- I was surprised to find out last time that (at least in this case) it was because a specific discount site had kept selling rooms even after the hotel had told them they were booked. I think it was a software glitch. I was lucky that I had called directly- they'd been walking customers all night who had booked with the third party site.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Honestly for $800 and a hotel, I would have raised both my hands, and made a few phone calls to let everyone know I'd be a day late.

I hear ya'! I wouldn't, though. My number would be way higher. And whatever that number is would STILL be WAY LESS than what this will cost them!! So ludicrous on United's part!

 

[Westcoastwild]

I wasn't angry about it, and it was a mostly empty theater during a matinee. It's amazing how well things can turn out if a complaint is lodged politely. However, I've gotten passes when I left and complained, and when I was kicked out.

The time we were kicked out, a customer service rep met us outside the auditorium and said "I see you're having a bad day". It was Captain America: Civil War, and my kid was 4 at the time. It was also kind of strange, where my kid asked where it was, I whispered, but it didn't register. And it was pretty quick how other patrons turned on me. I get that they were upset, and rightly so. However, someone who was nicely chatting with me earlier piled on after about three others started yelling. I was doing my best since I wanted to take my kid, who still wanted to see the movie. I was actually willing to leave and eat the cost.

Wow. I don't like people talking in movies, but I think I would have let that one slide. I think your kid was way less disruptive than the time I was forced to go to a certain vampire movie and couldn't stop laughing during the "serious" scenes. Okay, so I laughed like a loon through every scene except when the werewolf was shirtless. (in hindsight, I really don't think the staff was doing their job properly there. the people who forced me to go in the first place were pretty offended by my declaration that the movie was the best comedy I'd seen all year.)

 

[mummabear]

I don't care what any freaking contract of carriage says.
I will say it again.
Nobody should have the right to physically assault and drag an innocent, paying, customer...
EVER.
Especially a child, or an almost 70 year old man... Who, after seeing more footage, seems to have some deficits/issues.

I still find this footage to be very disturbing.
There are about a million ways that an airline can handle these situations without assaulting innocent defenseless paying human beings.

No reason... No justification... No excuse...

Maybe our current Congress should re-visit the so called Passenger Bill of Rights.
It doesn't protect innocent passengers from assault and battery...
Really?
Seriously!!!!

We are not talking about a TSA pat-down here.
This was physical assault.

I do wonder if the "issues" you are seeing are caused by a head injury, he hit that armrest pretty hard.

It's in the contract of carriage, Rule 25. Accepting the ticket generally means it is considered good faith when the airline follows these terms, even if it's delayed to the next flight.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25

Again:this isn't about what IS in the code of carriage, it's about what SHOULD be in it.

I don't believe it is good faith to sell something twice.

I think most people would agree that since we choose a day and time when we buy our ticket, the flight number we are booked for should be part of our contract and it is a reasonable expectation that barring the plane being unsafe to run (weather/mechanical) that we should be on that flight.

I'm not trying to imply anything; I was basing my comments on short video clip that people saw.



Do you typically fly with United?




But you didn't pay for a seat on a specific plane.

Yes you do, they may contract out of that in their fine print but the fact that as a consumer we can't just willy billy choose to take another flight without penatly shows that we have in fact booked THAT flight.

Necessary flight crew is necessary flight crew. Not flight crew on vacation, flying for leisure purposes, so nope, not the same thing. Maybe I'm just a push over though- if the movie staff asked me to leave, I'd leave. I'd then complain until I got a reimbursement and an apology if I felt it was unjustified. But I wouldn't argue with staff until they felt the need to call police to arrest me for trespassing. for one thing, I think that opens the customer up to the risk of no compemsation. This guy delayed the flight for three hours! Passengers apparently thought it was appropriate to abuse the staff members who were flying to their next place of duty; employes that were on a schedule and under orders. if I'd been on that flight, I probably would have been offended by security and staff overreaction, but seriously, the guy could have just gracefully accepted that the situation was beyond his control and then raised hell at customer service. instead, he chose to be removed by stretcher, injured, and delayed the entire flight. I don't think overselling is fair but I can't feel too much sympathy for the doctor...who is apparently a well educated professional that chose to act like a toddler.

i feel like I should back away from the computer at this point but hey, I have refreshments.

If I was on that plane I would have booed the oncoming staff too.

The crew was not nessecary for this flight, there was so many things united could have done to get either this crew or another onto the other scheduled flight the next day.

The fact is Inited but their profit before their passengers safety and they chose to assault a passenger to protect it.

 

[DaisyJ]

United CEO has apologized:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/un...-man-dragged-off-flight/ar-BBzFbry?li=BBnb7Kz

That isn't an apology. United either needs to get a new PR person or shut the heck up until they do.

 

[DaisyJ]

Question (and you might know since you've been bumped): What happens to the checked luggage? If they are just looking for random volunteers to take a different flight, how huge a job is it to sort through all the luggage? Wouldn't that result in hours of delay?

When we took a bump, our luggage was waiting for us at our home airport. It stayed on the original flight we were supposed to be on. I am not sure if that is SOP or not, since we were only two hours behind our luggage.

 

[declansdad]

Again:this isn't about what IS in the code of carriage, it's about what SHOULD be in it.

I don't believe it is good faith to sell something twice.

I think most people would agree that since we choose a day and time when we buy our ticket, the flight number we are booked for should be part of our contract and it is a reasonable expectation that barring the plane being unsafe to run (weather/mechanical) that we should be on that flight.



Yes you do, they may contract out of that in their fine print but the fact that as a consumer we can't just willy billy choose to take another flight without penatly shows that we have in fact booked THAT flight.

It doesn't matter what you think should be in the contract, it's what is actually stated in the contract that matters. There are many things that could change the flight and they can have an impact on whether you get on THAT flight or not.

 

[bcla]

I don't believe it is good faith to sell something twice.

I think most people would agree that since we choose a day and time when we buy our ticket, the flight number we are booked for should be part of our contract and it is a reasonable expectation that barring the plane being unsafe to run (weather/mechanical) that we should be on that flight.

Airlines do allow changes, including unrestricted which can be refunded at any time. They'll typically allow a passenger to fly standby on a later flight if arriving too late at the airport; that's happened to my wife and kid. I cancelled once for an international flight and got credit minus a $200 cancellation fee for each ticket. Some airlines (Southwest is the best known) have no change fees. Unrestricted also has no change fees.

An airline ticket isn't exactly an event ticket. I buy a ticket to a Paul McCartney concert, and it's basically that day/time unless it's cancelled. If I can't make it, I can't ask to change to a different event.

If airline tickets were locked in and nonrefundable (past any required cancellation period - the US requires one day), that would create other issues. I can't imagine airlines would give up unrestricted fare, which is their cash cow. Passengers have been bumped because a loyal business traveler was willing to pay full fare.

There are all sorts of tradeoffs to air travel. Overbooking occurs because passengers do have flexibility to cancel or make changes. It might be possible to eliminate overbooking, but that might mean zero flexibility with existing tickets.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Funny how two little words could have prevented this... "MARKET PRICE"... Increase amount offered until you have a taker. Or 4 takers in this case.

Never mind a $1,350/domestic flight limit (and they didn't even try that high here). http://airport.blog.ajc.com/2017/04/10/airline-bumping-what-are-your-rights/

If they want to overbook and kick people off when they mismanage their crew movements, they should pay whatever the market (the customers on that plane) demand. At some point, they'd SOMEHOW get better at managing all of this...

 

[kimblebee]

So it seems United knows how to take a reservation..they just don't know how to keep a reservation.

 

[bcla]

They should have upped the price until they had takers. No matter what that ended up being, it won't come close to lost sales and a lawsuit!!

HORRIBLE planning and PR. Just wow.

I doubt that they can be sued for the actions of uniformed law enforcement. Calling for law enforcement to take off an unwilling passenger is SOP everywhere. On Amtrak the preference is for Amtrak Police (or the host railroad police) to meet a train to escort a passenger off, so theoretically Amtrak could be liable for action if an employee. If that's not an option then local law enforcement will typically meet them. This doesn't necessarily require that anything illegal occur.

I'll just note that the passenger may not specifically done anything illegal, although interference with a flight crew might be possible. However, law enforcement isn't brought in to enforce the law, but to give the color of authority to the carrier's policy to remove a passenger. In that situation they're not necessarily any more than bouncers, although they have a legal right to remove someone off a plane.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

So it seems United knows how to take a reservation..they just don't know how to keep a reservation.

And that's really the most important part of the reservation...

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I doubt that they can be sued for the actions of uniformed law enforcement. Calling for law enforcement to take off an unwilling passenger is SOP everywhere. On Amtrak the preference is for Amtrak Police (or the host railroad police) to meet a train to escort a passenger off, so theoretically Amtrak could be liable for action if an employee. If that's not an option then local law enforcement will typically meet them. This doesn't necessarily require that anything illegal occur.

I'll just note that the passenger may not specifically done anything illegal, although interference with a flight crew might be possible. However, law enforcement isn't brought in to enforce the law, but to give the color of authority to the carrier's policy to remove a passenger. In that situation they're not necessarily any more than bouncers, although they have a legal right to remove someone off a plane.

I suspect SOMEONE will be sued for the rough treatment -- the head banging onto that armrest, etc.

Regardless, United will lose far more in lost sales and bad PR than through any lawsuit.