Union may file a greivance against an Eagle Scout for taking their jobs* WITH AUDIO

[shrubber]

A quick google on the topic was very enlightening. Apparently you don't have to say a word about it - it's enough that the boy scouts know you're gay. Not talking about it, not espousing your beliefs to the scouts - just being gay. Discrimination is something that I vehemently disagree with.

Boy Scouting makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any person

 

[shrubber]

This is an interesting read.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/boyscouts.html

A gay leader can lead without bringing up sex just as easily as a straight leader can. This never ceases to amaze me. How can people actually believe that it isn't discriminatory to assume that gay people espouse their beliefs just by their presence, while straight people need to actually talk about it?

And perhaps they do......Who would know?
They basically have a don't ask don't tell policy

 

[NikitaZee]

Boy Scouting makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any person

But if they happen to discover that one of their leaders is gay ...... he is no longer welcome. Would that be espousing the values of acceptance and tolerance?

 

[shrubber]

But if they happen to discover that one of their leaders is gay ...... he is no longer welcome. Would that be espousing the values of acceptance and tolerance?

The only leaders that have been asked to leave ( to my knowledge ) have been activist and openly gay and brought court cases against the BSA. ( and lost )

I do not believe you will find a case of someone being outed and asked to leave.
I think there was one case where somebody put through for a rembersment for an openly gay male resort he stayed at on vacation, but I'm pretty sure he was asked to go for trying to defraud and falsifly his reciepts.

 

[dakcp2001]

Boy Scouting makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any person

And does this somehow make the discrimination ok? Whether or not they make an effort to discover it does not absolve them from their discriminatory practices.

 

[shrubber]

The BSA chooses to embrace it's First Admendment Rights and its Freedom of Association as guarranteed by the Constitution.

You may think your right,
but the Supreme Court, the First Admendment and the Constitution say your not.
They all say there is nothing wrong with BSA policy
If thats not enough to convince you, then nothing is.

 

[dakcp2001]

The BSA chooses to embrace it's First Admendment Rights and its Freedom of Association as guarranteed by the Constitution.

You may think your right,
but the Supreme Court, the First Admendment and the Constitution say your not.
They all say there is nothing wrong with BSA policy
If thats not enough to convince you, then nothing is.

You are correct, you will never convince me that disriminating is ok. Just because the court says it is "ok" does not make it "right". You know the court used to say women were not allowed to vote, right? Did that make it "right"? If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. There are a lot of examples of the law saying things were ok, that were not ok at all. Law is all about interpretation.


Anywho, the policy of the Boyscouts really has no bearing on how I feel about a poorly written biased article trying to make a good vs evil story out of an eagle scout clearing a trail. It is really just blown out of proportion. Assuming the comments of one union official reflect the thoughts of all union members is absurd, just as it would be silly to assume all boy scouts support discrimination. People, fortunately, have the ability to think for themselves. SO really, no need to wave your "I love Boy Scouts" flag, we get that you will defend them until your last breath. Some of us do not agree with you. We never will.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

The only leaders that have been asked to leave ( to my knowledge ) have been activist and openly gay and brought court cases against the BSA. ( and lost )

I do not believe you will find a case of someone being outed and asked to leave.
I think there was one case where somebody put through for a rembersment for an openly gay male resort he stayed at on vacation, but I'm pretty sure he was asked to go for trying to defraud and falsifly his reciepts.

FYI, there have been gay leaders who are not activists that have been asked to leave, simply because they were seen in public with their SO. I know one. He chose to leave quietly rather than take it to court, so you will not find him via google. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Again, why is a gay person eating dinner at Applebee's with his SO considered "espousing his beliefs" when a straight person in the same situation is not?

Even if this was an anomaly, and it's usually just "activists" that are asked to leave, why is gay activism outside of scouting considered "espousing one's beliefs", when anti-gay activism is not?

The BSA chooses to embrace it's First Admendment Rights and its Freedom of Association as guarranteed by the Constitution.

You may think your right,
but the Supreme Court, the First Admendment and the Constitution say your not.
They all say there is nothing wrong with BSA policy
If thats not enough to convince you, then nothing is.

The Supreme Court did not say there is "nothing wrong" with excluding gays. They only said that BSA is allowed to discriminate because it is a private organization. The rest of us are also allowed to be appalled by the discrimination they choose to practice and speak out against it.

 

[SAHDad]

Slightly OT - anyone know that the current GSA policy on male leaders, specifically male leaders on campouts? They waffle on this every few years - IIRC, in the late 70s, male leaders of Brownies/Girl Scouts was ok, then sometime in the 80s, men could be assistant leaders, but not leaders, and they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls, and in the 90s, it might have changed again.

I think the GSA may state that they don't have a problem with it, but let's be honest - how many parents would be okay if they knew that men were in the leadership positions of the local Girl Scout troop?

 

[shrubber]

You are correct, you will never convince me that disriminating is ok. Just because the court says it is "ok" does not make it "right". You know the court used to say women were not allowed to vote, right? Did that make it "right"? If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. There are a lot of examples of the law saying things were ok, that were not ok at all. Law is all about interpretation.


Anywho, the policy of the Boyscouts really has no bearing on how I feel about a poorly written biased article trying to make a good vs evil story out of an eagle scout clearing a trail. It is really just blown out of proportion. Assuming the comments of one union official reflect the thoughts of all union members is absurd, just as it would be silly to assume all boy scouts support discrimination. People, fortunately, have the ability to think for themselves. SO really, no need to wave your "I love Boy Scouts" flag, we get that you will defend them until your last breath. Some of us do not agree with you. We never will.

nice way to bash a fine american institution

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Anywho, the policy of the Boyscouts really has no bearing on how I feel about a poorly written biased article trying to make a good vs evil story out of an eagle scout clearing a trail. It is really just blown out of proportion. Assuming the comments of one union official reflect the thoughts of all union members is absurd, just as it would be silly to assume all boy scouts support discrimination. People, fortunately, have the ability to think for themselves. SO really, no need to wave your "I love Boy Scouts" flag, we get that you will defend them until your last breath. Some of us do not agree with you. We never will.

The funny thing to me is, I agreed with him on the OP. I think the union is wrong in this situation, and I think that (other than those couple of bad policies), the BSA is a great organization. Shrubber's insistence on having the policies spelled out for him resulted the turn the thread took.

 

[shrubber]

FYI, there have been gay leaders who are not activists that have been asked to leave, simply because they were seen in public with their SO. I know one. He chose to leave quietly rather than take it to court, so you will not find him via google. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

well,  if he took it to court he would have lost. And if he was a gay scout leader , he was not upholding the values of the organization, he was a liar and should have left of his own accord

Again, why is a gay person eating dinner at Applebee's with his SO considered "espousing his beliefs" when a straight person in the same situation is not?

I  have no idea what you mean by this

Even if this was an anomaly, and it's usually just "activists" that are asked to leave, why is gay activism outside of scouting considered "espousing one's beliefs", when anti-gay activism is not?

What anti gay activism are you refering to?

The Supreme Court did not say there is "nothing wrong" with excluding gays. They only said that BSA is allowed to discriminate because it is a private organization. The rest of us are also allowed to be appalled by the discrimination they choose to practice and speak out against it.

The court case had to do with First Admendment rights. It did not say BSA 'was allowed to discriminate'
look it up.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Slightly OT - anyone know that the current GSA policy on male leaders, specifically male leaders on campouts? They waffle on this every few years - IIRC, in the late 70s, male leaders of Brownies/Girl Scouts was ok, then sometime in the 80s, men could be assistant leaders, but not leaders, and they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls, and in the 90s, it might have changed again.

I think the GSA may state that they don't have a problem with it, but let's be honest - how many parents would be okay if they knew that men were in the leadership positions of the local Girl Scout troop?

I'm not sure on male leaders, but as far as camping trips, men are not allowed to sleep in the same room as any girl other than their own daughters. We've had dads accompany us on camping trips and what usually happens is the dad sleeps alone in a separate room or tent, because his dd doesn't want to miss out on the fun of bunking with the rest of the girls.

My girls have usually had male soccer and basketball coaches, even a male dance instructor, and no one had a problem leaving their girls with them for practice, so I don't think it'd be a big deal as far as having them lead regular meetings.

 

[shrubber]

Slightly OT - anyone know that the current GSA policy on male leaders, specifically male leaders on campouts? They waffle on this every few years - IIRC, in the late 70s, male leaders of Brownies/Girl Scouts was ok, then sometime in the 80s, men could be assistant leaders, but not leaders, and they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls, and in the 90s, it might have changed again.

I think the GSA may state that they don't have a problem with it, but let's be honest - how many parents would be okay if they knew that men were in the leadership positions of the local Girl Scout troop?

It is not easy, I am a Girl Scout co Leader, ( it's GSUSA by the way )

There may be trips on which fathers or male leaders are part of the group. It is not appropriate for males
to sleep in the same space with girl members. They may participate only if separate sleeping quarters and
bathrooms are available for their use. Sleeping accommodations for such events should be announced in
advance, and girls must be instructed NOT to enter the “sleeping accommodations” of males. Men should
not be among the adults supervising girls in the sleeping area of an event. The adult-to-girl ratio for the
trip will need to be adjusted accordingly.

I have had to sleep in a tent 100 foot away from the cabin ( in late November )with my own port a potty before

 

[shrubber]

The funny thing to me is, I agreed with him on the OP. I think the union is wrong in this situation, and I think that (other than those couple of bad policies), the BSA is a great organization. Shrubber's insistence on having the policies spelled out for him resulted the turn the thread took.

If you check, it wasn't I that brought it up

 

[SAHDad]

It is not easy, I am a Girl Scout co Leader, ( it's GSUSA by the way )

There may be trips on which fathers or male leaders are part of the group. It is not appropriate for males
to sleep in the same space with girl members. They may participate only if separate sleeping quarters and
bathrooms are available for their use. Sleeping accommodations for such events should be announced in
advance, and girls must be instructed NOT to enter the “sleeping accommodations” of males. Men should
not be among the adults supervising girls in the sleeping area of an event. The adult-to-girl ratio for the
trip will need to be adjusted accordingly.

I have had to sleep in a tent 100 foot away from the cabin ( in late November )with my own port a potty before

Figured they allowed it, but there were a lot of hoops. I grew up hearing it as GSA from my mom (who was a troop leader), my dad (who became less involved as rules changed, and eventually wound up just being Cookie chair), and my sisters. Dad also did the Boy Scout thing with me, so Scouts & Scouting was a big deal in our house.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

well, if he took it to court he would have lost. And if he was a gay scout leader , he was not upholding the values of the organization, he was a liar and should have left of his own accord.

Wow, tell us how you really feel! Um, yea, he realized he would have lost, that's why he didn't go to court. Still, the point is, he was asked to leave simply because he was gay. He never told the kids he was gay, he never discussed anything sexual with them. He just ran into a bigot at Applebee's and got booted. Clearly you and BSA are OK with this. I'm not.

I have no idea what you mean by this

See above. You're the one who posted that "A straight leader espousing his beliefs about his sexual orientaion is no more welcome than a gays."? No one espoused any beliefs in this situation.

The court case had to do with First Admendment rights. It did not say BSA 'was allowed to discriminate'
look it up.

Look it up? I'm the one who linked to it!

Sorry my shorthand confused you. The finding was not worded that way, but that is most certainly the effect the decision had.

If you check, it wasn't I that brought it up

Oh, sorry, you're right, Dennis99 was the one who asked what the policies were that NHdisneylover disagreed with. You just tried to deflect.

 

[shrubber]

Wow, tell us how you really feel! Um, yea, he realized he would have lost, that's why he didn't go to court. Still, the point is, he was asked to leave simply because he was gay. He never told the kids he was gay, he never discussed anything sexual with him. He just ran into a bigot at Applebee's and got booted. Clearly you and BSA are OK with this. I'm not.


Your argument would be easier to respond to if you were able to provide some sort of cite
See above. You're the one who posted that "A straight leader espousing his beliefs about his sexual orientaion is no more welcome than a gays."? No one espoused any beliefs in this situation.
I have no way of knowing if this happened or not
Look it up? I'm the one who linked to it!
But apparently did not read it
Sorry my shorthand confused you. The finding was not worded that way, but that is most certainly the effect the decision had.
I'm getting used to folks twisting words around

Oh, sorry, you're right, Dennis99 was the one who asked what the policies were that NHdisneylover disagreed with. You just tried to deflect.

....

 

[dakcp2001]

nice way to bash a fine american institution

Fine American institution? That actually made me laugh out loud. Thank you for the laugh.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

well, if he took it to court he would have lost. And if he was a gay scout leader , he was not upholding the values of the organization, he was a liar and should have left of his own accord

I forgot to ask this before. Why would you call this person a liar? Who did he lie to?

Your argument would be easier to respond to if you were able to provide some sort of cite.

Why would there be a cite? I told you he didn't call the papers or take it to court. You can't comment on a simple situation that happened quietly?

I have no way of knowing if this happened or not

That's a good one! If you can't justify it, just pretend it didn't really happen!