Union may file a greivance against an Eagle Scout for taking their jobs* WITH AUDIO

[shrubber]

Shrubber--I am really sorry your thread got pulled so far off topic becuase of smal note in my hobbies post. I will try listening to the union link you provided once I get the kids off to school and see if I can form an opnion to post about the orginal topci to bring it back to the right place.

Everyone else--while I was afraid of breaking rules by posting, you did I nice job of figuring out and explaining exactly why my family is not comfortbale being memebres of BSA



I just have to make sure everyone knows that BSA and GSA are different organizations and they do not have the same policies regarding homosexuality or religion (sadly people often make the assumption that these groups are a joint force and have the same policies). Thus why DD and I have been heavliy involved in GSA but our family does not involbe ourselvse with BSA. I agree with not joining if you disagree with the policies--it is what I said i did all along. I never said anyone else should not join.

This is not entirely accurate,
While the policies of the two do differ they are essentially the same.
They operate with a don't ask don't tell policy.
A qoute from the GSUSA communications director
"It's a non-issue for us," said Lori Arguelles, communications director, who stressed that rigorous background checks are required for all staff and volunteer leaders. "We don't ask people to declare X, Y, or Z. It's not in our makeup to have to define people like that.
Niether does BSA.

Also, the main difference between GSUSA and BSA is how they are structured.
GSUSA operates as 318 independent and autonomous Girl Scout Councils around the country.
BSA does not operate it's Councils autonomously, it controls it's councils much more closely through a national headquarters. So that BSA standards are the same across the board. Not so with GSUSA.
So basically what one GSUSA council allows another may not. However GSUSA does set standards ( it's just that not everyone has to follow them )

Girl Scouts has been completely reworked since the 90's, moving away from it's original mandates. Some good, some bad IMHO.
But it's move away from it's traditional values has had a huge negative effect on it's enrollment past Brownies. GSUSA has the smallest member enrollment ever, it has been forced to close hundreds of Girl Scout camps and sell the property, it has also just recently suspended most if not all written communication with it's leaders ( Leader magazine ) due to budget restraints.

 

[NikitaZee]

Sing along folks! This is the thread that never ends....it just goes on and on my friends, some people started reading it not knowing what it was, and we will keep on reading it because ....it is the thread that never ends....


Now that song will be stuck in my head all day

Hahaha thank you for that! That gave me my first laugh out loud of the day!

 

[shrubber]

My understanding is the same as Dancing Bear's -- it is not that an adult male needs to be with an adult female. No adult is to be left alone with the girls, period, even female leaders. There must always be two adults (and all literature I've seen uses that term "adults", rather than men or women).

For example, in a regular daytime meeting in the school library, I have to have another adult in the room. If my co-leader can't make it to a meeting, I have to get one of the other parents to stay and just hang out so there is a second adult present. While I've never looked into the situation personally, I would think a meeting with two adult males present (one of which is a trained leader who has gone through the background check) would be just fine as well. (There are very few men in my area who want to be Girl Scout leaders, so I have never seen this situation come up in practice.)

The only situation I know of where men are treated differently is that of sleeping quarters.

Technically you are in violation of GSUSA guidlines...( for what's that worth )
When Girl Scouts says adults in reference to Safety Wise ( their guidelines ) It means trained adults, either a trained leader, our a trained adult volunteer ( one who has gone through a background check with national. Just having a Mom stick around, is technically a violation, and poses a danger to the youth ( again, by GSUSA standards )

Men cannot be Leaders ( hey is'nt that disciminitory !!!! ) They can only be co leaders or adult volunteers.
A female Leader must be present at all functions, meetings.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

This is not entirely accurate,
While the policies of the two do differ they are essentially the same.
They operate with a don't ask don't tell policy.
A qoute from the GSUSA communications director
"It's a non-issue for us," said Lori Arguelles, communications director, who stressed that rigorous background checks are required for all staff and volunteer leaders. "We don't ask people to declare X, Y, or Z. It's not in our makeup to have to define people like that.
Niether does BSA.

There you go again with the contradictory arguments! I thought you said a gay man, simply by virtue of being a gay Scout leader, was a liar. I thought you said that openly gay individuals are not allowed to be members of BSA, period. Yet you also they it's a non-issue and they don't define people like that?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why do you say BSA has a don't ask don't tell policy? Does that mean they don't ask the question on the application? If not, how does BSA know who to accept as leaders or scouts?

From the BSA website:

Volunteer Adult Leadership
Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. Scouting’s position with respect to homosexual conduct accords with the moral positions of many millions of Americans and with religious denominations to which a majority of Americans belong. Because of these views, Boy Scouts of America believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys.
● Youth Leadership
Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.

Seems pretty clear that it is indeed an issue for the BSA.

Conversly, the GSUSA website is silent on sexual orientation. Some councils also avoid the topic, while others show their commitment to equality:

Policy: Girl Scouts—Dakota Horizons is committed to providing an environment that is free from discrimination. The Council prohibits discrimination against any volunteer or volunteer applicant because of that persons’ race, color, creed, religion, ancestry, sex, national origin, disability, age, sexual orientation, marital status, and status with regard to public assistance, or any other legally protected status.

Girl Scouts of Nassau County, Inc., in recognition of its responsibility to its volunteers, its staff, and the girls it serves, reaffirms its policy to ensure fair and equal treatment in all its practices, to all persons regardless of race, color, ethnicity, religion, creed, age, gender, national origin, source of income, disability, marital status, predisposing genetic characteristics, or sexual orientation.

Girl Scouts of Greater Chicago and Northwest Indiana includes race, color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, age, disability, economic status and religion in its anti-discrimination policies.

I could find more, but don't really have the time. Clearly, the official policies are very different. As a practical matter, what happens IRL probably differs from the official policy from area to area, based on who is in charge of the local councils. When I went to new leader training, it was made very clear to us that sexual orientation was up there with race as a non-issue, and that even though the word "God" is used in the promise, atheists are welcome in Girl Scouting and they may skip the word or substitute another word or phrase of their choosing.

Technically you are in violation of GSUSA guidlines...( for what's that worth )
When Girl Scouts says adults in reference to Safety Wise ( their guidelines ) It means trained adults, either a trained leader, our a trained adult volunteer ( one who has gone through a background check with national. Just having a Mom stick around, is technically a violation, and poses a danger to the youth ( again, by GSUSA standards )

Men cannot be Leaders ( hey is'nt that disciminitory !!!! ) They can only be co leaders or adult volunteers.
A female Leader must be present at all functions, meetings.

No, I'm not in violation. As I indicated, a (trained, background-checked) female leader IS present at all meetings. Maybe your council has a different rule, or you mis-read my post, but only one adult must be a trained leader. The second can be any parent willing to stick around.

 

[NHdisneylover]

First off it's not GSA it's GSUSA....

There must always be 2 adults (one should be a leader)
present. One of the adults present should be female. In addition,
there are adult-girl ratios, which are different for at the meeting
place and on field trips. For example, there must be 2 adults for
the first 12 Brownie Girl Scouts, with an additional adult for each
6 Brownies after that (I think that is the field trip ratio). As the
girls move up through the program groups, less adult supervision is needed.


The restriction on men not being The Leader has been
lifted ( although it is not published). GSUSA allows for a leader and assistants, or co-leaders.

Thank you--that is correct. I will go back and fix that. I shouldn't try to post when I am doing other things--I am so used to writing the local chapter abbreviation I just didn't stop to really think.

This is not entirely accurate,
While the policies of the two do differ they are essentially the same.
They operate with a don't ask don't tell policy.
A qoute from the GSUSA communications director
"It's a non-issue for us," said Lori Arguelles, communications director, who stressed that rigorous background checks are required for all staff and volunteer leaders. "We don't ask people to declare X, Y, or Z. It's not in our makeup to have to define people like that.
Niether does BSA.

Also, the main difference between GSUSA and BSA is how they are structured.
GSUSA operates as 318 independent and autonomous Girl Scout Councils around the country.
BSA does not operate it's Councils autonomously, it controls it's councils much more closely through a national headquarters. So that BSA standards are the same across the board. Not so with GSUSA.
So basically what one GSUSA council allows another may not. However GSUSA does set standards ( it's just that not everyone has to follow them )

Girl Scouts has been completely reworked since the 90's, moving away from it's original mandates. Some good, some bad IMHO.
But it's move away from it's traditional values has had a huge negative effect on it's enrollment past Brownies. GSUSA has the smallest member enrollment ever, it has been forced to close hundreds of Girl Scout camps and sell the property, it has also just recently suspended most if not all written communication with it's leaders ( Leader magazine ) due to budget restraints.

Well, I have been through training in 3 councils now and was told flat out it is NOT the same. Girls Scouts do not ASK, but you can tell. You can be openly gay and be a girl scout leader. A girl can be openly gay and not loose any of her leadership positions within the organization. Very, very different. Also, as Mrs. Toad pointed out, Girls Scouts are not rewuired to believe in God--and God. When they say they are not a religious organization they mean it.

shrubber--yesterday you were crying foul on me for taking this thread off topic (by pointing out that based on the definition of hobby I have alwasy heard boy scouting is a hobby). It has now veered much further off topic and you are ignoring my attempts to bring it back by posting my opinion on your OP (now that I found info)-which you called me out on for not having an opinion for. You are, in fact contiuing to keep it off topic with long posts about girl scout required ratios (which had nothign to do with the question about what can men do or not do as far as leadership in GSUSA is concerened). Why is that?

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Hey, Shrubber, thanks for the info on male leaders. I looked at Safety-wise and it does state that "Because the female role model is essential to fulfilling the purpose of Girl Scouting, at least one member of the leadership team must be an adult female." Might sound discriminatory to some, but it makes sense to me.

I didn't know that, not that it would ever make a difference around here. Very few dads get involved, other than the annual father/daughter dance, and one awesome Scout Dad who wears a Tshirt saying "it takes a real man to be a Girl Scout."

 

[shrubber]

There you go again with the contradictory arguments! I thought you said a gay man, simply by virtue of being a gay Scout leader, was a liar.
I did and this is true, any gay man should know he is not to be a leader by BSA standards, if he reains/becomes a keader he is decieving the oranization, a liar
I thought you said that openly gay individuals are not allowed to be members of BSA, period. Yet you also they it's a non-issue and they don't define people like that?? That makes no sense whatsoever.
My comment was in regards to BSA not investigating people
BSA makes no inquiries into a persons sexual orientation, A Scout is Trustworthy
Why do you say BSA has a don't ask don't tell policy? Does that mean they don't ask the question on the application? If not, how does BSA know who to accept as leaders or scouts?
BSA accepts anyone able to pass a criminal background check, the proper training, and willing to adhere to BSA policy, Scout Law ect.
From the BSA website: Seems pretty clear that it is indeed an issue for the BSA.
Yes , they do have an issue with it, I never sais they didn't, I said that the subjuect is to never come up, sex, sexual orientation, is not part of the program, at all. The BSA has had to make these statements in response to activist gay men suing them in court
Conversly, the GSUSA website is silent on sexual orientation. Some councils also avoid the topic, while others show their commitment to equality:

As I posted just above, these councils work apart and autonomously from GSUSA National, they can set their own standards as based on their communities needs, it is not GSUSA policy however, big difference, they ( local council ), could let hampsters be girl scouts if they wish) although they would find it hard not to eat all the cookies before they sold them
I could find more, but don't really have the time. Clearly, the official policies are very different. As a practical matter, what happens IRL probably differs from the official policy from area to area, based on who is in charge of the local councils. When I went to new leader training, it was made very clear to us that sexual orientation was up there with race as a non-issue, and that even though the word "God" is used in the promise, atheists are welcome in Girl Scouting and they may skip the word or substitute another word or phrase of their choosing.
The word God has an asterisk beside it know in the promise
No, I'm not in violation. As I indicated, a (trained, background-checked) female leader IS present at all meetings. Maybe your council has a different rule, or you mis-read my post, but only one adult must be a trained leader. The second can be any parent willing to stick around.

Those are not just council rules, those are GSUSA rules, you are in violation, I would get with your service unit right away to correct the situation. Please refer to GSUSA Safety Wise, you had to sign off on that if you were trained

 

[shrubber]

Hey, Shrubber, thanks for the info on male leaders. I looked at Safety-wise and it does state that "Because the female role model is essential to fulfilling the purpose of Girl Scouting, at least one member of the leadership team must be an adult female." Might sound discriminatory to some, but it makes sense to me.

I didn't know that, not that it would ever make a difference around here. Very few dads get involved, other than the annual father/daughter dance, and one awesome Scout Dad who wears a Tshirt saying "it takes a real man to be a Girl Scout."

I agree 100%.
I wish more Dads would become involved, but Girl Scouts makes it very hard, even unwelcoming.
In reading through the Junior and Cadet books,with the billion or so badges available for family,home life, ect. Guess how many times the word Dad or Father is mentioned?
0
And I defy anyone to find even a picture of a man in any one of the Junior, Cadet, or Senior books.
It is very sad.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Those are not just council rules, those are GSUSA rules, you are in violation, I would get with your service unit right away to correct the situation. Please refer to GSUSA Safety Wise, you had to sign off on that if you were trained

Per Safety-wise: "During all group meetings and related small-group activities, the leader, assistant leader, or other responsible adult designated by the leader or by the council is present and at least one of these must be an adult female not related to the other adults."

Really, I work very closely with my Service Unit Manager. She knows exactly what happens in my troop, and the same thing happens in hers. We are not in violation, but thanks for your concern.

 

[shrubber]

Hey, Shrubber, thanks for the info on male leaders. I looked at Safety-wise and it does state that "Because the female role model is essential to fulfilling the purpose of Girl Scouting, at least one member of the leadership team must be an adult female." Might sound discriminatory to some, but it makes sense to me.

I didn't know that, not that it would ever make a difference around here. Very few dads get involved, other than the annual father/daughter dance, and one awesome Scout Dad who wears a Tshirt saying "it takes a real man to be a Girl Scout."

Oh wow, I just realized we agreed on something... I knew it would happen

 

[NHdisneylover]

Those are not just council rules, those are GSUSA rules, you are in violation, I would get with your service unit right away to correct the situation. Please refer to GSUSA Safety Wise, you had to sign off on that if you were trained

The way she explains it (one trained leader must be preesnt, other audlts coutning towards ratio do not have to be) is how I was trained in three councils as well. I believe you are confused. Also, by this statement you make it clear that you are aware GSUSA does, indeed, have national guidelines. Those include that girls do not have to include God in the promise and they do not include excluding gay members or leaders.

 

[shrubber]

Per Safety-wise: "During all group meetings and related small-group activities, the leader, assistant leader, or other responsible adult designated by the leader or by the council is present and at least one of these must be an adult female not related to the other adults."

Really, I work very closely with my Service Unit Manager. She knows exactly what happens in my troop, and the same thing happens in hers. We are not in violation, but thanks for your concern.

I do not believe that is correct.
Heck, they throw out so many amendems to that thing it may be correct as of yesterday!
Everything I read and trained on refers to an adult as someone who has passed the background check, ie leader, co leader, adult volunteer.
That would only make sense, no?

 

[shrubber]

Also, by this statement you make it clear that you are aware GSUSA does, indeed, have national guidelines. Those include that girls do not have to include God in the promise and they do not include excluding gay members or leaders.

Yep, I said all those things.
They also do not want people promoting a sexual lifestyle/orientation of any kind.

"The Girl Scout organization does not discriminate, but we do not endorse any particular lifestyle," said Marsha Johnson Evans, the Girl Scouts national director. "And we do not recruit lesbians as a group. We have firm standards relating to appropriate conduct. We do not permit sexual display of any sort by our members."
In addition, official Girl Scout literature on contemporary issues and human sexuality avoid references to homosexuality.

"We do not permit the advocacy or promotion of a personal lifestyle or sexual orientation," Evans added. "These are private matters for girls and their families to address. Girl Scout volunteers and staff must at all times serve as appropriate role models for girls."

In addition, the Girl Scouts spokespersons clarified their organization's policies.

If a Girl Scout troop leader mentioned in passing that she had a female partner, for example, spokesperson Ellen Christie-Ach said that it might be considered inappropriate "advocacy" and "looked into" at the local level by the governing Girl Scouts council.
The councils, Christie-Ach added, are solely responsible for the hiring and training of staff, consistent with the national policies, but always, she says, subject to interpretation "depending on community norms."

"Girl Scouts is not like McDonald's," she added, "The councils are not franchises. We allow Girl Scout councils to know best how to operate in their communities. That's what our founder wanted."


The councils, Christie-Ach added, are solely responsible for the hiring and training of staff, consistent with the national policies, but always, she says, subject to interpretation "depending on community norms

Again, for cryin out loud, Girl Scouts National has a policy,very similiar to BSA However, it can be changed on a local councils whim, whereas BSA's cannot.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Oh wow, I just realized we agreed on something... I knew it would happen

Are you sitting down? I will even give you kudos, shrubber, not only for being one of the rare men who volunteer with Girl Scouts, but for your involvement in Boy Scouts as well. Clearly you are very passionate about it and that's a good thing. Other than those two policies, I do think Boy Scouting offers a great experience for boys that meet the requirements.

I do not believe that is correct.
Heck, they throw out so many amendems to that thing it may be correct as of yesterday!
Everything I read and trained on refers to an adult as someone who has passed the background check, ie leader, co leader, adult volunteer.
That would only make sense, no?

See, to me it doesn't make sense. As a practical matter, how many adults are you going to persuade to do the training, background check, etc? If a troop has two trained leaders, once in a while one of them is going to get sick or otherwise have to miss a meeting. Seems logical to me to let another adult be there to satisfy the ratio.

 

[shrubber]

Are you sitting down? I will even give you kudos, shrubber, not only for being one of the rare men who volunteer with Girl Scouts, but for your involvement in Boy Scouts as well. Clearly you are very passionate about it and that's a good thing. Other than those two policies, I do think Boy Scouting offers a great experience for boys that meet the requirements. See, to me it doesn't make sense. As a practical matter, how many adults are you going to persuade to do the training, background check, etc? If a troop has two trained leaders, once in a while one of them is going to get sick or otherwise have to miss a meeting. Seems logical to me to let another adult be there to satisfy the ratio.

Well as I'm sure you know, practicality and Scout leadership really don't mix.
ugh, have you ever tried to take the girls on a canoe trip? where the hell am I supposed to find a certified lifeguard, canoe specialist, navy seal ( female of course ) policewoman, ob gyn, and rescue pilot for every trip?

 

[shrubber]

Quote:
Policy: Girl Scouts—Dakota Horizons is committed to providing an environment that is free from discrimination. The Council prohibits discrimination against any volunteer or volunteer applicant because of that persons’ race, color, creed, religion, ancestry, sex, national origin, disability, age, sexual orientation, marital status, and status with regard to public assistance, or any other legally protected status.

Quote:
Girl Scouts of Nassau County, Inc., in recognition of its responsibility to its volunteers, its staff, and the girls it serves, reaffirms its policy to ensure fair and equal treatment in all its practices, to all persons regardless of race, color, ethnicity, religion, creed, age, gender, national origin, source of income, disability, marital status, predisposing genetic characteristics, or sexual orientation.

Quote:
Girl Scouts of Greater Chicago and Northwest Indiana includes race, color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, age, disability, economic status and religion in its anti-discrimination policies.

I could find more, but don't really have the time.

You would'nt have to look much further

Only about two dozen of the 300+ Girl Scouts Councils have adopted explicit non-discrimination policies. The rest operate on a vague “don’t ask, don’t tell” basis. Each Council is also allowed to interpret Girl Scouts rules in its own way. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/lesbian_issues/78952

might want to check on yours.......

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Yep, I said all those things.
They also do not want people promoting a sexual lifestyle/orientation of any kind.

"The Girl Scout organization does not discriminate, but we do not endorse any particular lifestyle," said Marsha Johnson Evans, the Girl Scouts national director. "And we do not recruit lesbians as a group. We have firm standards relating to appropriate conduct. We do not permit sexual display of any sort by our members."
In addition, official Girl Scout literature on contemporary issues and human sexuality avoid references to homosexuality.

"We do not permit the advocacy or promotion of a personal lifestyle or sexual orientation," Evans added. "These are private matters for girls and their families to address. Girl Scout volunteers and staff must at all times serve as appropriate role models for girls."

In addition, the Girl Scouts spokespersons clarified their organization's policies.

If a Girl Scout troop leader mentioned in passing that she had a female partner, for example, spokesperson Ellen Christie-Ach said that it might be considered inappropriate "advocacy" and "looked into" at the local level by the governing Girl Scouts council.
The councils, Christie-Ach added, are solely responsible for the hiring and training of staff, consistent with the national policies, but always, she says, subject to interpretation "depending on community norms."

"Girl Scouts is not like McDonald's," she added, "The councils are not franchises. We allow Girl Scout councils to know best how to operate in their communities. That's what our founder wanted."


The councils, Christie-Ach added, are solely responsible for the hiring and training of staff, consistent with the national policies, but always, she says, subject to interpretation "depending on community norms

Again, for cryin out loud, Girl Scouts National has a policy,very similiar to BSA However, it can be changed on a local councils whim, whereas BSA's cannot.

Aw, gee! Not again! This is completely different! The mere fact that a person is gay is no more a "sexual display" than is the fact that a person is straight.

They do not recruit lesbians as a group, and do not permit the advocacy of a personal lifestyle or orientation -- so what? Why would they? Very, very different from banning people outright just because they are gay, even if they never said a word about it in front of the kids.

As far as the hypothetical local council "looking into" a leader who mentioned in passing that she had a female partner, I would be just as disgusted and just as vocal about that. Because we as leaders are taught differently, I would guess that this statement was made to appease those who are afraid of their dds having lesbian leaders.

Also, a cite (from GSUSA) on it's offical policy towards sexual orientation would be helpful, since you keep claiming that GSUSA has a policy similar to BSA. I can find no reference to sexual orientation in any GSUSA policy, only a statement issued in 1991 that mentions some of what you posted above, as well as:

As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference.

Hmm, Strongly worded, specific policy against gays, vs. no policy. How on earth can you call those similar?

Well as I'm sure you know, practicality and Scout leadership really don't mix.
ugh, have you ever tried to take the girls on a canoe trip? where the hell am I supposed to find a certified lifeguard, canoe specialist, navy seal ( female of course ) policewoman, ob gyn, and rescue pilot for every trip?

Only about two dozen of the 300+ Girl Scouts Councils have adopted explicit non-discrimination policies. The rest operate on a vague “don’t ask, don’t tell” basis. Each Council is also allowed to interpret Girl Scouts rules in its own way. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/lesbian_issues/78952

"don't ask don't tell" in this case are the words of the author of the article, not GSUSA nor any local council. Again, having no policy on gays and lesbians is a far cry from banning them outright.

The article you quote also states:

In a 1990 interview by Barbara Raab for Women’s E-news, Lori Arguelles, communications director of Girl Scouts, addresses the difference in philosophy between Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts: “The Boy Scouts believes that to be gay is somehow immoral. That is not our feeling.”

 

[shrubber]

Perhaps this has become a disargeement upon symantics. As these often do.
I'll do my best to clarify my points.

In response to comments that BSA and or Girl Scouts ( national level )
discriminate against gays, I tried to make the case ( pretty well I think ) that neither group even ever asks people when they join what their orientation is. Ever. Period.
They do in fact have a don't ask don't tell policy for lack of a better term.
BSA does say that they do not feel homosexuality fits into their program and you cannot be openly gay and be a member ( a scout, a leader ) aslo, you cannot advocate any sexual lifestyle and be a member.period.
GSUSA says that you cannot advocate a lifestyle and be a member.
PLEASE, don't let this turn into a wether or not scouts are right or wrong in this statement, We have avoided so far thank goodness.

This is about advocacy! (sp?)
I wonder if people think that BSA has some sort of curriculum that tells the boy and girls, that heterosexuals are right and homosexuals are not?
THe truth is there is no discussion about sex or orientation period.! You will get thrown out faster than you can imagine.
.

Both groups ( especially BSA ) avoid discussions about sex in general for the kids. That is not what the program is about. Both groups instruct leaders to avoid those discussions like the plague.( ed.well maybe not Girl Scouts so much anymore, maybe that's one reason why they are losing members left and right )
Likewise, both groups do not allow sexual expression by either leaders or scouts. Again, not part of the program.
A sixteen year old cannot be necking with their boyfriend/girlfriend and a leader cannot do the same.
BSA has had to take a more aggressive stand because of activists.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Perhaps this has become a disargeement upon symantics. As these often do.
I'll do my best to clarify my points.

In response to comments that BSA and or Girl Scouts ( national level )
discriminate against gays, I tried to make the case ( pretty well I think ) that neither group even ever asks people when they join what their orientation is. Ever. Period. true
They do in fact have a don't ask don't tell policy for lack of a better term. that is BSA, who will throw you out if you tell, or they otherwise find out. With Girl Scouts (in general -- harder to specify since local councils are allowed to do things differently) there is no policy, and if you tell, they will do nothing.
BSA does say that they do not feel homosexuality fits into their program and you cannot be openly gay and be a member ( a scout, a leader ) aslo, you cannot advocate any sexual lifestyle and be a member.period.
GSUSA says that you cannot advocate a lifestyle and be a member. Advocacy is very different from just "being". I find this to be a huge difference between the two organizations. I understand you do not.
PLEASE, don't let this turn into a wether or not scouts are right or wrong in this statement, We have avoided so far thank goodness.

This is about advocacy! (sp?)
I wonder if people think that BSA has some sort of curriculum that tells the boy and girls, that heterosexuals are right and homosexuals are not?
THe truth is there is no discussion about sex or orientation period.! You will get thrown out faster than you can imagine. I don't think anyone thinks that. They just think it's unfair that gay boys cannot be Boy Scouts and gay men cannot be leaders.

Both groups ( especially BSA ) avoid discussions about sex in general for the kids. That is not what the program is about. Both groups instruct leaders to avoid those discussions like the plague.
Likewise, both groups do not allow sexual expression by either leaders or scouts. Again, not part of the program.
A sixteen year old cannot be necking with their boyfriend/girlfriend and a leader cannot do the same. and this is relevent, how?
BSA has had to take a more aggressive stand because of activists. from my POV, BSA has been subjected to more activism BECAUSE they take the "more aggressive" stance, rather than vice versa.

..

 

[shrubber]

( hopefully the mods will have mercy on me )

Not advocating BSA postion our disavowing it.

BSA has a standard of morals that it adheres to. If someone does not why would they want to join?

Should I expect the Catholic Church to administer me the sacrament when I am ( ed.)anti theist?
Should I sue them over that? Is it fair just because our morals differ?
Am I being discriminated against or should I go find an organization religous or otherwise that caters to my needs and education?
Should I expect them to change to suit my adgenda?