Union may file a greivance against an Eagle Scout for taking their jobs* WITH AUDIO

[shrubber]

I forgot to ask this before. Why would you call this person a liar? Who did he lie to?
Your hypothetical man would have been lying to the BSA, If he had been a leader, he would have known that he could not be both gay and a member
Why would there be a cite? I told you he didn't call the papers or take it to court. You can't comment on a simple situation that happened quietly?

That's a good one! If you can't justify it, just pretend it didn't really happen!

Or pretend it did.....

 

[shrubber]

Fine American institution? That actually made me laugh out loud. Thank you for the laugh.

Why would you be so mean?

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Your hypothetical man would have been lying to the BSA, If he had been a leader, he would have known that he could not be both gay and a member.

I thought you said they had a don't ask don't tell policy.

Really, you ought to pick one argument and stick to it. Either they discriminate and you're OK with it, or they don't discriminate, they only boot them for espousing their beliefs and falsifying receipts. You keep waffling back and forth.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Why would you be so mean?

Says the guy who calls people liars...

 

[shrubber]

I thought you said they had a don't ask don't tell policy.

Really, you ought to pick one argument and stick to it. Either they discriminate and you're OK with it, or they don't discriminate, they only boot them for espousing their beliefs and falsifying receipts. You keep waffling back and forth.

You don't read very well I think.

They do have what amounts to a don't ask don't tell policy.
If someone is openly gay,( in this hypothetical situation, I'm not sure what they were doing in Applebee's to make it so obvious that he was gay......)
they may not be a member.
Something in his behavior at the resteraunt must have been openly gay ( Can't think of a better term here, sorry if it's offensive to anyone )

 

[shrubber]

Says the guy who calls people liars...

I called the character in your story a liar, not you

 

[Mrs.Toad]

You don't read very well I think.

They do have what amounts to a don't ask don't tell policy.
If someone is openly gay,( in this hypothetical situation, I'm not sure what they were doing in Applebee's to make it so obvious that he was gay......)
they may not be a member.
Something in his behavior at the resteraunt must have been openly gay ( Can't think of a better term here, sorry if it's offensive to anyone )

I read just fine. It must be your writing.

Hmm, honestly, I wasn't there, so I can't be certain what he was doing. I know Applebee's didn't kick him out for his behavior, so I'm sure it wasn't anything lewd. Perhaps he was holding hands or sitting close to his SO, or maybe they even kissed! Really, it doesn't matter. The issue is the double standard that you admitted to earlier in this thread. If a gay couple shares a kiss in a public place, that warrants being asked to leave scouting. If a hetero couple engaged in the exact same activity, no one would bat an eye.

Clearly you think this is just fine and dandy. I, and many others, don't.

I called the character in your story a liar, not you

He's not a character, he's a human being. And the fact that you are calling him a character, and calling the situation "hypothetical" means that you are calling me a liar, too. But that's OK. It reflects more on you than on me.

 

[FireDancer]

I don't think anyone is going to make the other side here come over to their camp, no pun intended.

If you are upset about the policies of the BSA or GSA do not participate. If you don't like the policy but think the good outweighs the bad, join and participate. If you have no problem with the policy, participate. Different opinions are just that, opinions.

I don't purchase products from certain companies because I don't like their business model or practices. I am not going to try and change them, I will just consume from a competitor or not at all.

As someone who has never been a scout I have sure learned a lot so at least it was informative.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

I don't think anyone is going to make the other side here come over to their camp, no pun intended.

I know. I'm not trying to change Shrubber's mind, I'm just having fun, as I presume he is, too.

I agree with participating if you think the good outweighs the bad, and not participating if you think the bad outweighs the good. That's what I said when I came into this.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Shrubber--I am really sorry your thread got pulled so far off topic becuase of smal note in my hobbies post. I will try listening to the union link you provided once I get the kids off to school and see if I can form an opnion to post about the orginal topci to bring it back to the right place.

Everyone else--while I was afraid of breaking rules by posting, you did I nice job of figuring out and explaining exactly why my family is not comfortbale being memebres of BSA

I don't think anyone is going to make the other side here come over to their camp, no pun intended.

If you are upset about the policies of the BSA or GSA do not participate. If you don't like the policy but think the good outweighs the bad, join and participate. If you have no problem with the police, participate. Different opinions are just that, opinions.

I don't purchase products from certain companies because I don't like their business model or practices. I am not going to try and change them, I will just consume from a competitor or not at all.

As someone who has never been a scout I have sure learned a lot so at least it was informative.

I just have to make sure everyone knows that BSA and GSA are different organizations and they do not have the same policies regarding homosexuality or religion (sadly people often make the assumption that these groups are a joint force and have the same policies). Thus why DD and I have been heavliy involved in GSA but our family does not involbe ourselvse with BSA. I agree with not joining if you disagree with the policies--it is what I said i did all along. I never said anyone else should not join.

 

[FireDancer]

I just have to make sure everyone knows that BSA and GSA are different organizations and they do not have the same policies regarding homosexuality or religion (sadly people often make the assumption that these groups are a joint force and have the same policies).

I didn't mean to imply that they do but I could see how the way I put it may have sounded that way. I meant if either have any policy you don't agree with don't participate. Just like those that don't like WalMart, Microsoft, Apple, GM, etc policies can do the same. Those that are pro-union can buy union made goods while those that are anti-union can buy non union made goods. Hooray capitalism...unless you are anti capitalism, then hooray what the heck ever.

Sorry if there was any confusion by my wording.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I didn't mean to imply that they do but I could see how the way I put it may have sounded that way. I meant if either have any policy you don't agree with don't participate. Just like those that don't like WalMart, Microsoft, Apple, GM, etc policies can do the same. Those that are pro-union can buy union made goods while those that are anti-union can buy non union made goods. Hooray capitalism...unless you are anti capitalism, then hooray what the heck ever.

Sorry if there was any confusion by my wording.

I wasn't sure if you meant that or not--so I just had to clarify "in case."

 

[NHdisneylover]

shrubber--I was unable to listen to the audio link you provided. Something to do with not having the right program on my computer to run it

I tried and tried to find a relativly unbiased source talking about this online. Fox was the closest I could come (not linking it here as shrubber linked it earlier in th thread). Other major networks (even local to Philly) are not jumping on this one. Every other source I could find tilts heavily in the anit-union direction except the union itself. I figure since the rest of what has been posted comes from the one side I could post the link to the other. I do this in the spirit of fair and balanced reporting and not because I am biased in one way or the other in regards to unions (I never can make up my mind about them--one day they seem to do a lot of good and the next they seem to do jsut as much bad--in MY opnion only):

http://www.seiu.org/mt/mt-search.cgi?blog_id=1&tag=Boy Scouts&limit=20

The union is saying, in both their website and the fox article, that they are not going after the boy scout in any way. The union is upset that one of their members (who is not the president as reported, rather a very local level leader along with others) made unauthorized comments, which are now being published in several places as representative of the union view.

Seems to me that neither the scouts, the city or the unions are the bad guys here. Somone named Nick, who is a small part of local level union leadership and probably very stressed out given the current job situation in his area, went off the deep end and made some one time comments that were not reasonable. Bad judegment exhibtied but probably not really a bad guy. Media jumped all over it and blew the story way out of proportion. Various media outfits jumping on bandwagons and sensationalizing a non story are the only bad guys I see (and man we see plenty of that from ALL sides far too often).

 

[DancingBear]

Slightly OT - anyone know that the current GSA policy on male leaders, specifically male leaders on campouts? They waffle on this every few years - IIRC, in the late 70s, male leaders of Brownies/Girl Scouts was ok, then sometime in the 80s, men could be assistant leaders, but not leaders, and they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls, and in the 90s, it might have changed again.

I think the GSA may state that they don't have a problem with it, but let's be honest - how many parents would be okay if they knew that men were in the leadership positions of the local Girl Scout troop?

I don't know Girl Scout policy, but Boy Scout policy is that no adult leaders (male or female) should ever be alone with a scout (other than their own child, of course).

 

[SAHDad]

I don't know Girl Scout policy, but Boy Scout policy is that no adult leaders (male or female) should ever be alone with a scout (other than their own child, of course).

I phrased it in a way that was less than clear. (Mea culpa - DS has been climbing into bed and kicking everyone awake several times each night for several weeks.) By "they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls" I meant that a situtation where you had (for example) one male adult leader and twenty girls was still a forbidden situation - adult men always needed adult women to act as chaperones.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

I phrased it in a way that was less than clear. (Mea culpa - DS has been climbing into bed and kicking everyone awake several times each night for several weeks.) By "they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls" I meant that a situtation where you had (for example) one male adult leader and twenty girls was still a forbidden situation - adult men always needed adult women to act as chaperones.

My understanding is the same as Dancing Bear's -- it is not that an adult male needs to be with an adult female. No adult is to be left alone with the girls, period, even female leaders. There must always be two adults (and all literature I've seen uses that term "adults", rather than men or women).

For example, in a regular daytime meeting in the school library, I have to have another adult in the room. If my co-leader can't make it to a meeting, I have to get one of the other parents to stay and just hang out so there is a second adult present. While I've never looked into the situation personally, I would think a meeting with two adult males present (one of which is a trained leader who has gone through the background check) would be just fine as well. (There are very few men in my area who want to be Girl Scout leaders, so I have never seen this situation come up in practice.)

The only situation I know of where men are treated differently is that of sleeping quarters.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I phrased it in a way that was less than clear. (Mea culpa - DS has been climbing into bed and kicking everyone awake several times each night for several weeks.) By "they weren't supposed to be ever left alone with the girls" I meant that a situtation where you had (for example) one male adult leader and twenty girls was still a forbidden situation - adult men always needed adult women to act as chaperones.

I think that is still the current set up (along with the seperate sleeping quarters and restrooms at overnight events; day time one restroom for all in the building is okay). I also think an adult male can drive a group of girls with no other adult in the car so long as the other adults (who mayeb were driving other vehicles) are around at the destination. As you said it changes frequently. I don't think anyone has ever been very happy with any of the policies. GSUSA is trying to find that fine line between riskin getting sued for leaving men alone with girls and treating men fairly and letting them provide good role models for the girls. It is a frustrating situation all around (my dad was an assitant leader back when he could not be a leader--the "leader" never did a thing and was only there because we begged her to at least come and sit at meetings so we could have a troop).

PS--sorry shrubber, I really did TRY to get this back on topic for you.

 

[shrubber]

I think that is still the current set up (along with the seperate sleeping quarters and restrooms at overnight events; day time one restroom for all in the building is okay). I also think an adult male can drive a group of girls with no other adult in the car so long as the other adults (who mayeb were driving other vehicles) are around at the destination. As you said it changes frequently. I don't think anyone has ever been very happy with any of the policies. GSA is trying to find that fine line between riskin getting sued for leaving men alone with girls and treating men fairly and letting them provide good role models for the girls. It is a frustrating situation all around (my dad was an assitant leader back when he could not be a leader--the "leader" never did a thing and was only there because we begged her to at least come and sit at meetings so we could have a troop).

PS--sorry shrubber, I really did TRY to get this back on topic for you.

First off it's not GSA it's GSUSA....

There must always be 2 adults (one should be a leader)
present. One of the adults present should be female. In addition,
there are adult-girl ratios, which are different for at the meeting
place and on field trips. For example, there must be 2 adults for
the first 12 Brownie Girl Scouts, with an additional adult for each
6 Brownies after that (I think that is the field trip ratio). As the
girls move up through the program groups, less adult supervision is needed.


The restriction on men not being The Leader has been
lifted ( although it is not published). GSUSA allows for a leader and assistants, or co-leaders.

 

[dennis99ss]

wow. what a fire storm. I simply was curious about what the issues were. If the issue had been something else, maybe something could be done to impress NH about the need for it, etc. But, given the issue she has a problem with, there is nothing that can be done. The rules is the rules.

 

[dakcp2001]

Sing along folks! This is the thread that never ends....it just goes on and on my friends, some people started reading it not knowing what it was, and we will keep on reading it because ....it is the thread that never ends....


Now that song will be stuck in my head all day