Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[Oreo Cookie]

I've spent my time reflecting on the victims of the church massacre, and listened to some of the services held yesterday.

In his eulogy Thursday, Brandon Risher said his grandmother "was a victim of hate, but she can be a symbol of love."

"Hate is powerful," he said. "But love is more powerful."

The Rev. Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was a speech therapist and high school track coach. Her son Chris described her as "a God-fearing woman (who) loved everybody with all her heart." If everyone loved the way she did, he said, hate wouldn't have a chance

Powerful words, and the grace shown by the families is inspiring.

Also, here is a quote from the shooter's family;

Rest assured, in the coming days, as more information becomes available, we will do our best to answer them. That being said, we would like to take this time to reflect on the victims and give their families time to grieve. We feel it would be inappropriate to say anything at this time other than that we are truly sorry for their loss. After an appropriate time, there will be an opportunity to have questions answered, but we ask that right now, care and attention and support be given to the grieving family members of the victims.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/25/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/

As far as the confederate flag, or battle flag, I support removing it from the state capital. It's not appropriate. However, if people want to own or display confederate flags, that is their right. I want to be able to see who people really are, not have it hidden. Also, I don't support the cleansing of movies, shows, books, etc. Our history is just that our history, and we need to never forget what happened in the past, but always strive to make the future a better place.

 

[pat fan]

However, if people want to own or display confederate flags, that is their right. I want to be able to see who people really are, not have it hidden. Also, I don't support the cleansing of movies, shows, books, etc. Our history is just that our history, and we need to never forget what happened in the past, but always strive to make the future a better place.

Just asking for clarification. I realize to some the flag is a symbol of racism. To some it is a symbol of something else. So, do you really need to assume if someone has that flag displayed somewhere they are a racist? Believe it or not I see it, not frequently but at times, in the back window of guys trucks. Are they racist? No. Rednecks? Yes. They would be pretty offended if you called them a racist. If you don't support the cleansing of movies etc...isn't that sort of what you are doing with the flag? I agree that on a state building is probably not the best place for it, just because it doesn't fit. I wouldn't expect a regiments flag of a Mass's unit to be flown at the state house. But if someone wants to fly it at their house/truck or whatever, I am not going to jump to the conclusion they are a racist. Redneck, yes.

 

[Wendy31]

As far as the confederate flag, or battle flag, I support removing it from the state capital. It's not appropriate. However, if people want to own or display confederate flags, that is their right. I want to be able to see who people really are, not have it hidden. Also, I don't support the cleansing of movies, shows, books, etc. Our history is just that our history, and we need to never forget what happened in the past, but always strive to make the future a better place.

(bolding mine)

I tend to agree w/ most of what you said. However, isn't assuming someone w/ a Confederate Flag is racist the same sort of thing as assuming someone w/ sagging pants & grills is a gang member or thug?

 

[rajak73]

The Boston Marathon bombing was a bombing incident, followed by subsequent related shootings, that occurred when two pressure cooker bombs exploded during the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013. The bombs exploded about 12 seconds and 210 yards (190 m) apart at 2:49 pm EDT, near the marathon's finish line on Boylston Street. They killed 3 people and injured an estimated 264 others

So are you also in favor of banning pressure cookers? Looks dumb when you read it but makes as much sense as banning a flag. How about we take bulldozers and destroy all the confederate cemeteries and plant flowers on top? After all, didn't these people represent slavery? How about those confederate uniforms in museums? Burn them? Like ISIS is destroying history. Weren't they fighting for slavery? I have learned some things on this thread, I never viewed that flag as slavery, I viewed it as rebels, I'm thinking Dukes of Hazzard. If I saw a pickup with flag in the window or on the back, I just figured it was a Redneck getting ready to go "muddin" I didn't realize it was that offensive to people. So what do we ban next? IF there is another shooting, (unlikely now because the flag is now banned) and the shooter is sitting on a couch on you tube, is it, MY GOD, we have to ban couches!! That's the problem! I don't know what the answer is...but I do know banning material things is not it!

 

[Muushka]

I said in on another similar, recent thread (Baltimore) - that the black community needs better leadership.

"I also think there needs to be some changes in the African American community, as well. For one thing, they need a great leader again, one who is respected by all. And I don't mean a president, who is spread so thin; I mean someone whose sole job it is to bring everyone together for the common good.

Bill Cosby, current troubles notwithstanding, gave a speech during an NAACP awards ceremony back in 2004 that was widely criticized at the time. But let's re-look at what he had to say. (I believe there was another black celebrity more recently who essentially said the same thing, and was also criticized, but I can't remember who it was.)

The Pound Cake Speech:

http://www.cbn.com/tv/1398877690001

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_Cake_speech "

I alluded to it earlier in the thread, but I'll say it outright here. Black folks that try to say anything like the above are shot down pretty quickly by some blacks and referred to as "Uncle Toms" so they've been silenced pretty quickly. Just look at what happens on Twitter and other social media. So everyone hesitates to say anything.

A really sad thing is that this preacher and senator who was killed may actually been one of the people who could have effected change in a positive way. But maybe, somehow, all this "positivity" from their families and the people of Charleston may have planted the seed...

It took a lot of courage for you to post this. I could only give it one like, sadly. And thank you for the link.
I had heard the speech years ago, it was good to hear it again.

If only this massacre in Charleston could begin a healing, but I fear not.

There is more going on in this country than race issues. I believe it is all part of a plan. I'll stop here.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I am honestly not trying to be courageous. I'm just trying to have a discussion about the issues while at the same time, trying to help find a solution, however small my little part may be, lol. I wish we could all just get along. As I said before somewhere, maybe here, when push comes to shove, we are all just humans.

To the above posters who asked the question of Chocolate Cake: It's all about perspective. I believe Chocolate Cake is one of our black posters here. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So to her, when she says she wants to be able to see who people are, I take it that she is one of the people that find the flag to be offensive; may even be in fear of it. Just sayin.

 

[DizBelle]

So if we get rid of the flag the kkk will disappear? I wish it was that simple.

No - we need to get rid of crosses and white sheets as well before that will happen. </sarcasm>

 

[Oreo Cookie]

Just asking for clarification. I realize to some the flag is a symbol of racism. To some it is a symbol of something else. So, do you really need to assume if someone has that flag displayed somewhere they are a racist? Believe it or not I see it, not frequently but at times, in the back window of guys trucks. Are they racist? No. Rednecks? Yes. They would be pretty offended if you called them a racist. If you don't support the cleansing of movies etc...isn't that sort of what you are doing with the flag? I agree that on a state building is probably not the best place for it, just because it doesn't fit. I wouldn't expect a regiments flag of a Mass's unit to be flown at the state house. But if someone wants to fly it at their house/truck or whatever, I am not going to jump to the conclusion they are a racist. Redneck, yes.

Why is it okay to jump to the conclusion that they are a redneck? It seems to me you are saying it's not okay for me to think someone is racist because I see the confederate flag, but it's okay for you to assume they are a redneck. FYI, I would never see someone with a confederate flag and call them a redneck or a racist, I will think that, but I'm not going to call them that. I do not feel the need to start a public fight. People send messages everyday by the symbols they choose to display, some of those symbols have a negative connotation.

 

[pat fan]

Why is it okay to jump to the conclusion that they are a redneck? It seems to me you are saying it's not okay for me to think someone is racist because I see the confederate flag, but it's okay for you to assume they are a redneck. FYI, I would never see someone with a confederate flag and call them a redneck or a racist, I will think that, but I'm not going to call them that. I do not feel the need to start a public fight. People send messages everyday by the symbols they choose to display, some of those symbols have a negative connotation.

I wouldn't do that either! LOL! Redneck is not an offensive term as far as I know. Maybe I missed the PC bandwagon on that one. I'll clarify myself. Around here they would be considered rednecks, maybe somewhere else they are called something different. My intent was to say if I see that flag, I don't automatically think it means something bad. Better?

 

[Oreo Cookie]

I wouldn't do that either! LOL! Redneck is not an offensive term as far as I know. Maybe I missed the PC bandwagon on that one. I'll clarify myself. Around here they would be considered rednecks, maybe somewhere else they are called something different. My intent was to say if I see that flag, I don't automatically think it means something bad. Better?

Understood. -

I think we will just respectfully disagree.

 

[pat fan]

I think we will just respectfully disagree.

Good with me

 

[cabanafrau]

I just hope at the end of the day the loudest voices, the voices that get heard and have attention paid to them are the voices calling for love to win over the hate.

 

[Geoff_M]

Just when you think it cannot get any sillier...

"Next they came for the Gettysburg National Military Park Bookstore..."

 

[Geoff_M]

"Next they came for the Apple iTunes App Store..."

James Lileks offers this insight:

...the only reason Apple pulled the Civil War apps from the store was fear of the internet - specifically, fear of the worst part of the internet, where lack of reason is balanced by an excess of enthusiasm. No rational person would complain that there were Civil War sims. No sensible person would believe that society would be improved by demanding their removal. No emotionally stable person could think that they were safer now because someone, somewhere, would not get updates to a game they purchased that allowed them to fight as the Union Army but contained the sight of the Confederate flag. Anyone who would believe these things is tethered to reality by a frayed strand of dental floss, and while they may live in a comfy bubble where everyone believes the same things and has at least two friends who are doing very important work in the field of instructional graffiti, most people are stable enough to resist the siren call of the Stars and Bars, even in the form of a picture on a phone.

But. The loud people may complain. The company would have to explain. An explanation would be seen as a justification.

Of course there are nuances to this; Apple is working with developers to use a different, earlier flag, according to some reports. Because that’s the issue, right? Finding an acceptable flag to represent a slave state? As I noted elsewhere, the app store still has a game that lets you simulate the USSR, including an in-app purchase that lets you fine-tune your oppression settings. One could say this is okay because the USSR was an equal-opportunity killer, just as the repression settings in “Tropico” are hunky and / or dory because you’re putting the screws to your own people. If that’s the case, then they have decided that American Slavery is not only a unique historical event, but something whose magnitude and uniqueness sets it apart from every other act of state oppression and governmental violation of human rights. The enslavement of an entire population is not offensive, per se, because it’s color-blind.

I mean, sure, go ahead, make that argument. And if that’s the case, then my Roman Slave Merchant Sim should get brisk approval, because the Romans didn’t care who they enslaved, and also had the option to buy your way out. They practically invented the in-app purchase, in a way.

If people in the South decide they don’t want that flag flying in public areas, fine. I don’t care and I have no love of the flag. On the contrary. But if that game is offensive, then the people who play it are participating in a hurtful portrayal, and isn’t it possible that some of those people may be in positions to hire, or fire, or promote, or approve loans, or otherwise have an impact on people’s lives?

Shouldn’t we know who’s buying those games? Of course we should. And that’s why Apple had better cough up a list of purchasers, or they’re enabling the maintenance of systemic deprivations. It would also be necessary to provide the names of the people who worked on the games, and google-bomb ‘em so their sins pop up the next time an employer does a background check.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I wouldn't do that either! LOL! Redneck is not an offensive term as far as I know. Maybe I missed the PC bandwagon on that one. I'll clarify myself. Around here they would be considered rednecks, maybe somewhere else they are called something different. My intent was to say if I see that flag, I don't automatically think it means something bad. Better?

Redneck is a term that was intended to be offensive, but has been embraced by the very people it was intended to offend.

 

[pat fan]

Redneck is a term that was intended to be offensive, but has been embraced by the very people it was intended to offend.

Thereby making it non-offensive, yes? Guess I wasn't around when it was supposed to be offensive.

 

[TLSnell1981]

No - we need to get rid of crosses and white sheets as well before that will happen. </sarcasm>

Are grits and sweet tea on the growing list of Southern things to ban?

 

[Christine]

The Boston Marathon bombing was a bombing incident, followed by subsequent related shootings, that occurred when two pressure cooker bombs exploded during the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013. The bombs exploded about 12 seconds and 210 yards (190 m) apart at 2:49 pm EDT, near the marathon's finish line on Boylston Street. They killed 3 people and injured an estimated 264 others

So are you also in favor of banning pressure cookers? Looks dumb when you read it but makes as much sense as banning a flag. How about we take bulldozers and destroy all the confederate cemeteries and plant flowers on top? After all, didn't these people represent slavery? How about those confederate uniforms in museums? Burn them? Like ISIS is destroying history. Weren't they fighting for slavery? I have learned some things on this thread, I never viewed that flag as slavery, I viewed it as rebels, I'm thinking Dukes of Hazzard. If I saw a pickup with flag in the window or on the back, I just figured it was a Redneck getting ready to go "muddin" I didn't realize it was that offensive to people. So what do we ban next? IF there is another shooting, (unlikely now because the flag is now banned) and the shooter is sitting on a couch on you tube, is it, MY GOD, we have to ban couches!! That's the problem! I don't know what the answer is...but I do know banning material things is not it!

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll put in my 2 cents.

I don't think the confederate symbol needs to be banned. As you said, it stands for many things to many people. For a very LARGE part of the population it represents a time in history when the this country held slaves. The flag and the south were pro-slavery. I realize there were a lot of people who took pride in where they lived at that time but, bottom line, that flag and confederacy represent slavery and a negative aspect to those that were victims. If you are a government and your constituency feels insulted by that representation, and you are there to represent them and work for them, then I don't see how flying that flag is a good thing. I realize it also stands for southern pride but, you have to admit, that it's other symbolism is fairly well-known. So, as far as governments flying it--no I don't think they should because they are there for ALL of there people and if 20% of their people feel threatened by it, it certainly cannot inspire trust in their government.

I do not think the symbol should be banned though. It has historical meaning and others do find pride in it. You should be able to display it in your car, on a T-shirt, etc. But it should not be involved in anything produced by the government.

 

[disneyjunkie]

They see it. Their entire careers are based on it. If black & white decide once & for all to get along, he & his ilk are finished. Sharpton takes things to ridiculous levels intentionally. It serves his purpose.

"Their ilk" would to see all of this end. People get angry because they have the guts to speak up about racism.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I think the civil rights movement in the 60's was most certainly needed, and we obviously have issues to this day, but I honestly have to wonder what the landscape would look like if the black community didn't have "leaders" such as Jesse and Al?

I believe they are seen as "race baiters" by the white community and have made a fortune playing the race card. And I believe they are more divisive then uniters.

And can I even refer to them as "communities" w/o being an ***?!

That's just my opinion. I'd really like to hear from Eliza61 and others. (I singled you out because I like the logical, thoughtful posts. You seem to take raw emotion out and post a straightforward response)

I'm going to warn everyone in advance, I'll probaby start asking a lot of questions and I don't want to offend. I just want to try and understand both sides of conversation better.

People called MLK, Malcom X, Medgar Evers....race baiters and agitators. Booker T Washington and W.E.B.Dubois were pitted against one another.
There will always been those who push/long for blacks to follow/embrace/put forward leaders who make whites feel comfortable and/or do not challenge the status quo.

As a black woman, I don't feel I have to pick one leader over another. As long as they are all working toward the same goals, I'm happy.