Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[goofy4tink]

Perhaps, just perhaps, if people like this young man weren't supported in their FB pages or other such social media, things could start to change. When you see some of the photos and such, coming from him, it's not surprising that he did this. Is a 'flag' at the root of this evil? No, of course not. BUT......when you see so many photos of people, young and old, sitting with weapons and the Confederate flag (or what everyone thinks of as the official flag) in the same shots? You have to wonder what the mentality is there. Do we think that these folks are just your everyday next door neighbor? I'm up here in Mass, we don't have many people that fit this definition. And yes, I fully realize NE's part in the Civil War.....there's a lot of blame to go around! But I have to think that there is a particular mentality that is attracted to the whole 'white supremacy' stand. Are there a lot of people that are like this? I doubt it. But, it certainly doesn't take many to make the world a not so great place.
Yes, slavery was a normal part of everyday life in the past. Yes, our presidents had slaves. But, we need to stop thinking that way. It is no longer acceptable. Everyone is supposed to be equal....supposed to be. I hear bias all the time. I was at an area amusement parkSaturday...it is close to a very urban area. So, as one would assume, a lot of the people in that park were not your upper middle class types. And yes, there were a lot of people of various ethnicities. And I actually overheard some pretty nasty comments...from all sorts of people, white and black...about others in that park. It was actually pretty amazing given what had happened just three days before!!!
You just can not judge an entire race of people on one or two people you may know..or events you may have seen. My issue with the whole 'flag' thing? Sure, it's a part of history. But, so is the Nazi swastika. It's only a piece of cloth, right? And while the flag we see today isn't the official Confederate flag, it is still the design that most people think of as the Confederate flag.

Is this a case of mental illness? Some say no. But in all reality, would a perfectly sane person do something like this? I don't think so. And I agree, too many times we use 'mental illness' as a scapegoat when something like this happens. But, if it's so easy for someone with any kind of mental issues to get a weapon, then something needs to change. Yes, it's true...guns don't kill people, people kill people. The thing is that you don't see all that many knifings or strangulations. Yes, bombings happen and it's remarkable how easy it seems to be to make a bomb. But, it's the guns as weapons that seem to be the issue with this kind of attack. That kid went into that church, sat with those people for an hour, praying with them, and then stood up and shot them...seriously, how can anyone think he is sane?? He needed help, he didn't get what was needed. Yes, a people issue. But, until it gets too difficult for anyone to get a gun, these things will still happen. There is something drastically wrong when someone like this can get any type of weapon.

I attended an interfaith memorial service yesterday. There were people from many area churches. When someone from the Hindu faith stood up to speak, I could see heads go together, whispering. Now, do I know what was being said? Of course not. I choose to believe they were saying how wonderful it was that someone from that faith was there, to join with us. But, part of me doesn't believe that's what was being said. I know that when we have our interfaith Thanksgiving service, people are very turned off when a Sikh gets up to offer prayer! Drives me nuts. So, until we can accept everyone, this is going to continue.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yes, it is always very predictable on this board which posters will show up and how they will comment on these threads. It's the same people and same things every time. Yet I am sure they don't think they have any bias.

Out of curiosity, do you think you have any bias?

Like most other issues, racism is an issue that can probably best be tackled with the idea, first I'll sweep my porch, then I'll take a look at what needs my attention.

 

[Chocolate Cake]

I don't think anyone can disagree that America lost eight citizens in this incident we could not afford to lose, people would made the world a better place because of the type of people they were.

Perfectly said.

And I will add that a person that hates someone because they are not like them is going to do so until the day they die. You can take down all the flags you want, it's not going to change a thing.

Personally, I like to know what I am dealing with, so keep those flags flying. I will judge you the minute I see you driving around with your Rebel Flag flying off of your pick up truck. Perhaps I am being racist, but I will immediately consider you an uneducated redneck.

But at the end of the day, a 21 year old punk had the frame of mind to sit in a room with beautiful people for an hour, while they presented him with nothing but kindness and fellowship. He then murdered those same people. Even after he got to see their loving souls for an hour. He still murdered them.

Taking down a flag will not stop that kind of hate filled insanity.

 

[cabanafrau]

Perfectly said.

And I will add that a person that hates someone because they are not like them is going to do so until the day they die. You can take down all the flags you want, it's not going to change a thing.

Personally, I like to know what I am dealing with, so keep those flags flying. I will judge you the minute I see you driving around with your Rebel Flag flying off of your pick up truck. Perhaps I am being racist, but I will immediately consider you an uneducated redneck.

But at the end of the day, a 21 year old punk had the frame of mind to sit in a room with beautiful people for an hour, while they presented him with nothing but kindness and fellowship. He then murdered those same people. Even after he got to see their loving souls for an hour. He still murdered them.

Taking down a flag will not stop that kind of hate filled insanity.

Personally I don't think this can be pinned strictly on racism. Was he a racist, absolutely. I happen to believe mental illness twisted those ugly ideas even further into his soul, resulting in being able to slaughter innocent people. I also don't think the mental illness is an excuse. I believe he is and was perfectly capable to understand his actions were very wrong, yet he chose to go forward. Were I the prosecutor I would use his hesitation to demonstrate his competency, his ability to form criminal responsibility and definitively outline first degree murder.

So much of this hysterical conversation about racism makes it seem as if it's a matter that can be mandated out of existence. That's nonsense. I even believe people are legally entitled to their racist thoughts. People have all sorts of hideous thoughts about all sorts of things. We cannot control what or how people think. Our best hope is to win hearts and minds in a way that brings people together. If each person took up the idea to reach out and get to know just one other person I think it would do more good than any speech, protest or endless debates could possibly do. That's what it all boils down to, realizing we're all just human beings, riding round and round on this big, blue sphere in the universe.

 

[luvsJack]

Yes, it is always very predictable on this board which posters will show up and how they will comment on these threads. It's the same people and same things every time. Yet I am sure they don't think they have any bias.

Yes, it is always predictable who will come on a thread like this a start spouting out about the the south and dragging up history to back their opinion. And assuming, as usual, that any and all southerners are racist because they do not agree with your opinion that we should wipe out our history and any remembrance of it. Funny how while you go on and on about how horrible racism is (and I agree with you on that 110%), you and other posters think its very much ok to have that same kind of hate for an entire region of the country. Talk about needing to sweep around your own back door!

I can't help that this obviously hate filled young man had a flag nor can anyone else. News flash for you, most southerners do not even own a confederate flag. The majority of people do not drive around flying one out of the back of their truck or vehicle, most do not have one at their home. Most do not even have a picture of the thing. That doesn't mean we think they should be removed from memorials of the civil war.

I believe him to be mentally ill because people do not normally hate to that degree without having some kind of issues. I have said before and I will say again, that degree of racism is a form of mental illness, imo.

Obviously you think that a flag is the root of our problems in this society. Who knew? Just take down a flag and we will all live in peace and harmony forever. Now why hasn't someone already thought of it?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I've known a few folks who embrace the rebel flag and the one thing they seem to have in common is a need to display who they are. And who they are - or want you to believe they are - is "country" or "redneck" (and no, they do not take offense at that label). They don't like city life or city people, not fond of gov't, and they like to embrace a hard partying lifestyle. They like to be seen as outlaws; giving a collective middle finger to DC much as they envision the Confederate states doing. Most are not outwardly racist. That, in a nutshell, is my admittedly limited experience on the rebel flag wavers.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Charlestonians have handled this unimaginable tragedy with dignity and Grace. They have shown, how to honor and respect your loved ones with peace and love, not hate and violence. They have brought people together, not torn them apart.

 

[okeydokey]

Yes, it is always predictable who will come on a thread like this a start spouting out about the the south and dragging up history to back their opinion. And assuming, as usual, that any and all southerners are racist because they do not agree with your opinion that we should wipe out our history and any remembrance of it. Funny how while you go on and on about how horrible racism is (and I agree with you on that 110%), you and other posters think its very much ok to have that same kind of hate for an entire region of the country. Talk about needing to sweep around your own back door!


Obviously you think that a flag is the root of our problems in this society. Who knew? Just take down a flag and we will all live in peace and harmony forever. Now why hasn't someone already thought of it?

Ha ha ha, yes, that's exactly what I said, Defensive much? And by the way, I am a Southerner, and this post soooo proves my point.

 

[judytudy]

Those poor people are in my prayers

 

[CPT Tripss]

Test


Exactly. But your truth is lost on those who are blindly lashing out at symbols because they think that will change things.

It won't.

Things will only change when --- as others have already sagely observed -- we attack the people issues behind this tragedy.

That's a big cop out. What's you suggestions for dealing with "the people problem" of the overt racism, hate and white supremacy displayed by too many people and the ongoing support by "good citizens" of the very symbols that the haters employ?

 

[cabanafrau]

That's a big cop out. What's you suggestions for dealing with "the people problem" of the overt racism, hate and white supremacy displayed by too many people and the ongoing support by "good citizens" of the very symbols that the haters employ?

What's your suggestion to enforce a mandate that prohibits overt racism, hate and white supremacy? IMO symbols is the least of the problem and you win the argument by winning hearts and minds, not arguing petty ridiculousness. It's not an overnight answer. There's no clear path or guaranteed solution. But if the tide can be turned to get as many people pulling together maybe it's inevitable everyone winds up more as a community.

 

[dinolounger]

What's your suggestion to enforce a mandate that prohibits overt racism, hate and white supremacy? .

Cabanfrau, if you get a response it will be something to the effect of ban the display of "symbols" and tear down memorials to "X". Or put another way, these people think punitive censorship will make everyone with ill thoughts fade into the twilight. And you are correct, that is ridiculous and won't work. And if you push them on what you correctly said has to happen (actually changing hearts and minds), they draw a blank, because demonizing and attacking is all they know how to do.

 

[cabanafrau]

Cabanfrau, if you get a response it will be something to the effect of ban the display of "symbols" and tear down memorials to "X". Or put another way, these people think punitive censorship will make everyone with ill thoughts fade into the twilight. And you are correct, that is ridiculous and won't work. And if you push them on what you correctly said has to happen (actually changing hearts and minds), they draw a blank, because demonizing and attacking is all they know how to do.

I know that. But sometimes if you try to encourage a solution out of people it changes the conversation. If it was so simple to simply shout "the others" down or demonize them does anybody think the Middle East wouldn't have found a way to iron things out after a few thousand years? Is that a model for society we want to emulate? Much better to be the change you want to see than to keep hurling accusations and hatred.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Just watched Last Week Tonight. I have to say John Oliver really nailed it on the Confederate flag.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

That's a big cop out. What's you suggestions for dealing with "the people problem" of the overt racism, hate and white supremacy displayed by too many people and the ongoing support by "good citizens" of the very symbols that the haters employ?

Maybe stop blaming whites for every bad thing that happens to minorities would be a good start. How about focusing on ways we're all the same instead of ways we're all allegedly different?


When our so-called leaders spew anti-white rhetoric, that does nothing to make whites like blacks, nor does it do anything to make blacks like whites. All it does is give strength to the very people you (and I) believe we should stop.

 

[disneyjunkie]

A question for you: why are so many so determined to defend defacing a monument to war dead? Is it possible they want to spread pain and insult and enjoy doing that?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/21/charleston-confederate-statue-vandalism_n_7632702.html

My ancestors were slaves in South Carolina. After the Civil War, my family settled in the northern part of the state. Every run in M6 family members have had with people displaying that flag has been negative.

So I don't give a damn about that flag or memorial.

 

[dinolounger]

Just watched Last Week Tonight. I have to say John Oliver really nailed it on the Confederate flag.

Yes, he really showed his colors by saying "one of those symbols that should really only be seen on T-shirts, belt buckles, and bumper stickers to help the rest of us identify the worst people in the world.” Yep, the ISIS creeps who burn people alive get a pass over an adolescent in a T-shirt at a NASCAR event.

And since he he was talking about the flag below, IMHO he didn't nail anything and just displayed his ignorance, because this is not the Confederate flag.

But irrespective of what flag he thought he was discussing, it is sad that he is yet another partisan commentator who couldn't restrain himself from turning this tragedy into a hate discussion about something.

Compare his "I hate the south" vitrol to the people of Charleston, who took the high road and showed love and compassion to each other instead of going the Ferguson and Baltimore route of rioting in the streets and destroying property. Yep, certain people still had to find something else to attack/tear apart and settled on a supposed symbol. The people in Charleston showed love and forgiveness and God's love, yet here we go again with people like Oliver looking for a reason to fight and argue over.... a flag (which isn't even the flag they say it is). Human lives were lost and yes, you can blame a flag all you want, but it comes down to what an individual person did and would have done irrespective of a flag.

 

[dinolounger]

I don't give a damn about that flag or memorial.

There are all sorts of things I also don't give a damn about.

But I don't feel the desperate need to burn them, deface them and demonize those who do give a damn about them.

 

[luvsJack]

Ha ha ha, yes, that's exactly what I said, Defensive much? And by the way, I am a Southerner, and this post soooo proves my point.

Please, do not pretend its not your insinuation.

How do I prove your point? Please, tell me what I said that indicates racism? I don't agree with you about a flag. Neither do 99% of the people I know. So does that make blacks who have nothing against that flag racist too?

I never owned a slave. I had nothing to do with slavery. No one here was ever a slave. How about we all stop living in the past and move forward. There is a way to do that. Remember our history so its not repeated. Honor our ancestors as we see fit, but move forward and away from constant arguing over a flag. This is stupid.

And it all still comes down to one simple fact: That flag did NOT make this young man do this. You can turn it a thousand different ways, it still is not to blame. Its a scapegoat because its easier than just facing the fact that maybe a 21 year old is just plain evil.

 

[Luvchefmic]

On that killer's manifest was also a picture of him spitting on & burning the American flag. He spewed his hatred for many not just blacks. Plain Evil. He will pay for the lives he took, I have no doubt...forever.