Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[TLSnell1981]

I just watched the Rev Goff give his service in the church I aspire to have the faith and strength that was displayed in the church this morning Right now that's really all that matters

Faith gives them the strength...

 

[luvsJack]

The same racist sentiment that keeps that flag flying where it is and his sentiments are different only in degree. The difference is he was a disturbed individual that acted more radically and in a more evil fashion on that sentiment.





Southerners that have tried to hide their sordid racist history behind false romanticized versions of the same have done more to bury real southern history more than anyone seeking to remove these symbols of racism and treason could ever hope to achieve.

Its not a racist sentiment. Its our history. It is flying over a memorial for men who died fighting for something they believed in, not slavery.

No one is romanticizing anything. Slavery was a horrible thing. But in case you forget slavery was also not limited to the south nor even to the US.

It is a piece of cloth, it did not cause this.

We need to stop blaming flags and guns and work on what the hell is wrong with people.

 

[mnrose]

They all happened in a place the shooter chose specificaly because they knew their victims would be unarmed.


And let's be clear here - you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Even if we could all agree to outlaw all private possession of firearms today (and good luck with that), there are 300 million guns in the US. You won't get them all. You won't even get most of them. Guns are durable goods. Firearms from the 1800's are still out there being used on a regular basis. There hasn't been any significant advancement in firearms in more than 100 years. The gun used in the church was a model 1911 - named after the year it was first produced. It's currently the most popular handgun in the US (and for the record, the magazine holds just 7 rounds). People can obtain pot, coke, meth, and heroin almost anywhere, anytime. Do you really believe it would be any different with guns were they to become illegal?

You're right. Let's not even try to do anything different. I guess we just have to accept the slaughter of innocent men, women and children at an alarming rate greater than that almost anywhere else on earth. Ok.

 

[Mkrop]

I know! I know! Pick me.

They all had in common ready access to firearms. Let's not acknowledge the obvious though.

Let's bury our heads in the sand and pretend that unfettered gun ownership is more important than the lives of innocent men, women and children.

They all involved guns. Not knives, not chainsaws, not poisons.

Guns.

And the Boston Marathon murderes and Timothy McVeigh used bombs.

 

[dinolounger]

Southerners that have tried to hide their sordid racist history behind false romanticized versions of the same have done more to bury real southern history more than anyone seeking to remove these symbols of racism and treason could ever hope to achieve.

Good heavens, Disney is guilty of creating false romanticized images, to enable evil southerners who seek to hide sordid racist history! We must all boycott this horrific, subversive organization at once!!!

 

[Luvchefmic]

Can we give it a rest until these poor souls are laid to rest at least ?

 

[pat fan]

You're right. Let's not even try to do anything different. I guess we just have to accept the slaughter of innocent men, women and children at an alarming rate greater than that almost anywhere else on earth. Ok.

That's not even close to what they said. There have been murders since the world was created (practically) and there were no guns available. Make all the gun laws you want, all that does is restrict people who are going to obey the laws to begin with. Even if you outlawed ALL guns, the criminals will still have them. It's a flawed idea. Like I said previously, it's a problem with the de-valueing of life. Get to the root of that and then you've got something, but no one wants to talk about that. The whole world has gotten more violent and cruel (NOT just the USA) and what does that coincide with? I'd tell you but it's a banned topic.

 

[Muushka]

Can we give it a rest until these poor souls are laid to rest at least ?

Yes. I will.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You're right. Let's not even try to do anything different. I guess we just have to accept the slaughter of innocent men, women and children at an alarming rate greater than that almost anywhere else on earth. Ok.

Oh, I'm ALL for doing something "different". The same old, same old is to pass feel good legislation that does NOTHING to solve the problem. Different woud be welcome.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I truly am amazed how forgiving the families have been. I know I would be raw from pain and not able to forgive as quickly as they did.

I read somewhere that Dylann was on psch drugs; did anyone else read that? I thought it was a CNN article, but now I can't find it.

 

[Muushka]

I truly am amazed how forgiving the families have been. I know I would be still raw from pain and not able to forgive as quickly as they did.

I read somewhere that Dylann was on psch drugs; did anyone else read that? I thought it was a CNN article, but now I can't find it.

Yes, I agree, the families are simply amazing. The grace they have shown is inspiring.

He wanted to start a race war. I pray we will all continue to not give him what he strives for.

I believe you are correct about the gunman being on psyche drugs.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Yes, I agree, the families are simply amazing. The grace they have shown is inspiring.

He wanted to start a race war. I pray we will all continue to not give him what he strives for.

I believe you are correct about the gunman being on psyche drugs.

I hope he doesn't get what he wants as well. I read on facebook how this one girl hates white people and how she wants to shoot them all. She also told all her friends to shoot white people. Her facebook page was taken down, but it's still something to be concern about.

I don't think guns are the problem. I think the psych drugs are the bigger problem. We give these drugs out like they are candy and no one really watches the people on them. I think we really need to look at how we do our mental health. I think if you are on any psych drug you need to see a counselor or psychiatrist weekly or bi-weekly while you are on these types of meds. I know my mom is on psych drugs, through her GP, and she doesn't see anyone to check on her mental health.

 

[ZachnElli]

Show me an example of a black man killing a white man where the media said as a primary excuse: He was mentally ill. Hasn't happened to my recollection. It's always about "his parenting" "absent father" "his community" etc etc etc.


Of course, there may be some minor reference to "mental illness", but it isn't top of mind or offered as the primary excuse.

Here, people are bending over backwards to claim "he must be mentally ill."

And, people still want to say "oh no, racism wasn't that big of a deal."

Good heavens.

We must accept that racism exists. If this man wasn't racist, would he still have killed? Maybe. But, would he have shot up a church prayer meeting of black folks? Nope.

Nikko Jenkins. I can't be the only Nebraskan on the board?! I don't know anyone here who doesn't think he's 110% mentally ill. He plead guilty to 4 murders. He was found incompetent for the death penalty. He's so crazy, a judge had to force the Lincoln Regional mental hospital to take him, they said they weren't equipped for someone so dangerous.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Its not a racist sentiment. Its our history. It is flying over a memorial for men who died fighting for something they believed in, not slavery.

No one is romanticizing anything. Slavery was a horrible thing. But in case you forget slavery was also not limited to the south nor even to the US.

It is a piece of cloth, it did not cause this.

We need to stop blaming flags and guns and work on what the ______(Edited) is wrong with people.

Well if you truly think those men weren't fighting for slavery or white supremacy, then you should be for removing that flag immediately in favor of a plaque that reads, "These brave men were conscripted and/or tricked into fighting and dying for a cause they did not believe in." Further, the flag is where it is as a result of a compromise rather than anything else.

The confederacy and those that founded it knew it was about white supremacy and slavery even if you do not.

From the words of Alexander Stephens, VP of the confederacy declared that the cornerstone on which the confederacy rested was white supremacy.
"Our new government (the confederacy) is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the _________(edited) is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

It is no coincidence that the era of civil rights sparked renewed interest in that particular flag. And those that put that and other flags of the confederacy back up when the United States finally started to dismantle legally enforced segregation darn well knew it was about saying, "we're still in charge here," despite lip service about heritage. Like it or not, White supremacy is the vast majority of its history and its heritage and always has been. To deny that is to deny the very history you claim to be honoring.

Good heavens, Disney is guilty of creating false romanticized images, to enable evil southerners who seek to hide sordid racist history! We must all boycott this horrific, subversive organization at once!!!

I guess you forgot Song of the south came out in 1946, before integration, before the civil rights era and before the story of the tar baby becoming problematic due to the phrase becoming a racial slur and before that flag went back up over South Carolina's capitol. I guess you also missed that Disney corporate has no plans to release the movie in the United States due to the problem with the story of the tar baby and on the ride replaced it with a honey comb that doesn't carry racial overtones. That is not possible with the flag in question. And last I checked. the flag in question wasn't flying on the flag pole at Disneyland.

 

[dinolounger]

Some thoughts:

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both owned slaves. Shouldn't we consequently tear down monuments to them and remove their images from our currency?

And just where do you think the South sold all those textiles and agricultural products they produced? Just to other Southerners? All you New Yorkers and residents of New England (particularly MA) live in what were then the primary markets for those goods. That made those who lived there direct beneficiaries of slavery. Shouldn't the current residents of those states be taxed now to pay reparations to African Americans?

And what can we say about the good 'ol US of A? How about the fate of the American Indians? Whom do we blame for that? Have you asked any of them just what they think about the American flag flying over their former land?

And on the subject a certain flag currently lying in South Carolina, some facts (which in particular the prior poster is in real need of learning):

1. As previously indicated, the flag flying in SC is NOT "the Confederate flag" and isn't even an accurate representation of what some now call the "battle flag."

2. The flag currently flying in SC never flew over any Confederate state capitol and was never adopted by any Confederate General. It did appear on the side of a car in a very popular 1970s TV series, which interestingly didn't create any aggravation back in those apparently naive and less "enlightened" days.

3. Contrary to the ignorance of most Americans and many posters here, the national flag of the Confederacy was the "Stars and Bars" - two red stripes with a white stripe in between, with a blue square in the corner which contained a circle of 8-13 white stars symbolizing the states which originally/eventually joined the Confederacy. As shown in the exhibit below, the Art Director of Gone With The Wind did get that right, but again the comparatively low historical knowledge of most viewers of this film probably explains why the "wipe the slate of southern history clean" crowd has never gotten in a tizzy about the fact the real Confederate flag appears in it (GWTW still runs regularly on TV, TCM shows it at least 3-4 time s a year).

4. The brouhaha over this piece of cloth is a wasteful, petty diversion from the real racial problems besetting this nation. If we aggressively buried every single supposed symbol of the antebellum south, we'd still be left with racial tension in this country and those with disturbed minds who can be turned to evil by hateful rhetoric.

 

[pat fan]

4. The brouhaha over this piece of cloth is a wasteful, petty diversion from the real racial problems besetting this nation. If we aggressively buried every single supposed symbol of the antebellum south, we'd still be left with racial tension in this country and those with disturbed minds who can be turned to evil by hateful rhetoric.

Thank you!

And now someone has defaced the Memorial in SC. Newsflash....ALL LIVES MATTER!!! That's how we got in this mess in the first place, this kid not valuing the life of those in the church. EVERY life matters and until people, ALL people, take that into their hearts and stop hating and stirring up hatred this will go on..and on..and on...

 

[dinolounger]

I guess you forgot Song of the south came out in 1946

Given I showed an original release poster, I didn't forget that.

But what you apparently forgot was the fact Splash Mountain opened in 1989. That was long, long after integration, the civil rights era and the term tar baby becoming bastardized. Despite all that, Disney had no problem -- no problem whatsoever -- using the imagery from the film to do exactly what you were railing against: "hiding sordid racist history behind false romanticized versions." Splash Mountain takes Chandler's characters and presents the archetype of a "romanticized" view of a southern fantasy realm. I guess you would have been happier if the the attraction had included a slave auction scene and animals dressed in KKK attire?

I guess you also missed that Disney corporate has no plans to release the movie in the United States

Disney lost the battle with technology to hide that film (and many others it didn't want in circulation -- when you get the chance, check out "Education for Death: The Making of the Nazi" on youtube) the moment the VCR became common place. Anyone interested in seeing SOTS today can do that either by just going to youtube

or if they want an HD quality hard copy getting one mastered from the 1980s era official Disney Japanese laserdisc release, which is available from multiple vendors.

So no one really interested in seeing the movie cares about or is being deterred by Disney not re-releasing the film.

 

[pat fan]

But what you apparently forgot (or more likely ignored) was the fact Splash Mountain opened in 1989. That was long long after integration, the civil rights era and the term tar baby becoming bastardized. Despite all that, Disney had no problem -- no problem whatsoever -- using the imagery from the film to do exactly what

Not to hijack the thread, but I own SOTS and I love it. Now, Gone With the Wind? I can not STAND that movie for a number of reasons, the biggest being it's a HUGE racist garbage fest IMO. I do not see how people can decry SOTS and think GWTW is a classic! Total nonsense! GWTW should be banned and never seen or spoken of again!

 

[dinolounger]

Thank you!

And now someone has defaced the Memorial in SC. Newsflash....ALL LIVES MATTER!!! That's how we got in this mess in the first place, this kid not valuing the life of those in the church. EVERY life matters and until people, ALL people, take that into their hearts and stop hating and stirring up hatred this will go on..and on..and on...

You are absolutely right Pats Fan (one of my brethren, I love watching those vids on youtube that contrast the last three minutes of the SuperBowl as seen by New England vs. Seattle fans). Here is what some righteous (and functionally illiterate) "racial harmony" protester did in Charleston that is only going to set things back further:

 

[luvsJack]

Well if you truly think those men weren't fighting for slavery or white supremacy, then you should be for removing that flag immediately in favor of a plaque that reads, "These brave men were conscripted and/or tricked into fighting and dying for a cause they did not believe in." Further, the flag is where it is as a result of a compromise rather than anything else.

The confederacy and those that founded it knew it was about white supremacy and slavery even if you do not.

From the words of Alexander Stephens, VP of the confederacy declared that the cornerstone on which the confederacy rested was white supremacy.
"Our new government (the confederacy) is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the _________(edited) is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

It is no coincidence that the era of civil rights sparked renewed interest in that particular flag. And those that put that and other flags of the confederacy back up when the United States finally started to dismantle legally enforced segregation darn well knew it was about saying, "we're still in charge here," despite lip service about heritage. Like it or not, White supremacy is the vast majority of its history and its heritage and always has been. To deny that is to deny the very history you claim to be honoring.



I guess you forgot Song of the south came out in 1946, before integration, before the civil rights era and before the story of the tar baby becoming problematic due to the phrase becoming a racial slur and before that flag went back up over South Carolina's capitol. I guess you also missed that Disney corporate has no plans to release the movie in the United States due to the problem with the story of the tar baby and on the ride replaced it with a honey comb that doesn't carry racial overtones. That is not possible with the flag in question. And last I checked. the flag in question wasn't flying on the flag pole at Disneyland.

We can debate the flag, the confederacy and the civil war all day long and all that does is take the focus from the fact that a mentally ill young man walked into a church and took 9 innocent lives.

He wanted to start a race war and guess what? Start fightong about a piece of cloth and he wins.

Someone defaced a memorial? For what? What does it prove? Nothing.

If they tear that flag down tonight, will all racism end tomorrow? No it wont.

We can't change history. And trying to wipe it away does nothing.

If you want to pretend that this is a southern issue, go for it, but you are lying to yourself. If you want to blame a flag, go for it but its only clouding the issue.

Its not a southern issue or a flag issue or even a gun issue; its is still a people issue.