Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[Geoff_M]

... I think we are too "reactionary". So I hate to see it remove because evil found a new friend and he did this horrific thing.
And now the poor presidential candidates are being asked whether or not it should come down. I mean really, I can think of 50 other things I want to know.

You're right on this one. I've just read an excellent analysis piece on this subject: "Congratulations! You Oppose The Confederate Flag! Now, What?"

It concludes:

One might be forgiven for thinking that is the goal of modern outrage politics — to turn everything into power games and nothing more.

I agree with New York Times reporter Lydia Polgreen:

A risk in all the flag unanimity: everyone will think this whole race problem in America has been solved and we can move on.

Lydia Polgreen (@lpolgreen) June 23, 2015

This is in fact what outrage culture does. We’re addicted to judgment porn, and this is just the latest example. And just like traditional porn, outrage porn serves only for momentary release. Confederate flag burning doesn’t actually do anything to stop racism. It’s a complete sideshow. And once we’ve blown up every confederate statue and smashed every tombstone with Confederate marks and erased all evidence of the Confederacy from our roads, we’ll still have the scourge of racism and every other sin with us.

 

[christineann]

I read the article, and I get it, but I don't think it represents how most of us "regular people" around here feel. Most of the people I know don't care much one way or the other about the flag and have felt for a long time that it would eventually be taken down and moved to a museum. When it was taken down off the statehouse in 2000, it barely caused a ripple here. For us (and I say "us" meaning the locals - not the media or those who have taken a recent interest in the flag), it is not a matter of political correctness or a knee-jerk reaction to the murders of the Emanuel parishioners - it was going to happen anyway, and it is not a gesture to make us feel good about ourselves. No one thinks it is going to make problems suddenly disappear; the elected officials are being pushed by the media to take a stance NOW, so it appears that way to many.

As I said previously, I think it would have been appropriate to wait until after the funerals and the departure of the media to have a thoughtful discussion about the flag without all the righteous indignation, political posturing, and media focus. There are many groups and organizations coming into the area to hold rallies and protests, and I am afraid it will hinder Charleston's efforts to handle this horrible event as it has the past 6 days. Most of us are simply concerned with supporting our neighbors, individually and through our church families, right now. I hope that those coming here, like most of us, will be inspired by the families, who have handled this with more strength and grace than could be expected of anyone.

 

[JoeA]

This thread has turned into a discussion about a damn flag. A worthless piece of material flying above a monument or museum or whatever.

Take it down. Put another up. Who cares.

The media, candidates, NASCAR and everyone else ahould be having a discussion about prevention and not worrying about getting some feelings hurt.

"Hey, look at me over here...take 'er down now...did I do good? Was that the right answer Mr and Mrs Public?"

Why do we have all these young males committing horrific acts of crime? That should be the conversation. Please don't say "gun control". Not a "cause". Sure as heck wasn't a "symbol" waving in the breeze. So what?

I swear I feel as if I live in a burning building and everyone is arguing if the drapes match the carpet.

Man, I don't know what the answer is but I'd start with the freaking media. You just know that somewhere here in America there is some messed up white dude who doesn't "fit in" and he's thinking, "wow, look at this! I can do that!" He's being desensitized by the day until, "pop" goes the lid.

Ok, rant over.

 

[luvsJack]

This thread has turned into a discussion about a damn flag. A worthless piece of material flying above a monument or museum or whatever.

Take it down. Put another up. Who cares.

The media, candidates, NASCAR and everyone else ahould be having a discussion about prevention and not worrying about getting some feelings hurt.

"Hey, look at me over here...take 'er down now...did I do good? Was that the right answer Mr and Mrs Public?"

Why do we have all these young males committing horrific acts of crime? That should be the conversation. Please don't say "gun control". Not a "cause". Sure as heck wasn't a "symbol" waving in the breeze. So what?

I swear I feel as if I live in a burning building and everyone is arguing if the drapes match the carpet.

Man, I don't know what the answer is but I'd start with the freaking media. You just know that somewhere here in America there is some messed up white dude who doesn't "fit in" and he's thinking, "wow, look at this! I can do that!" He's being desensitized by the day until, "pop" goes the lid.

Ok, rant over.

I can't "like" this enough. You are so very right. We have to stop having knee jerk reactions and start finding the real solutions.

 

[ChrisFL]

I fear that the radicals who think that "the south shall rise again" are going to start attacking more places once these flags come down/get banned/etc.

There's a lot of wackos who are just waiting for an excuse to take their anger out on others.

 

[pat fan]

I fear that the radicals who think that "the south shall rise again" are going to start attacking more places once these flags come down/get banned/etc.

Please, it's not just the "south" where horrible things happen. People have no center, no hope for their future and so you have the hole in their lives being filled with all kinds of garbage and hate. The kid whose dad just turned him in because he was going to pull a big ISIS inspired event, that wasn't aimed JUST at blacks but everyone. Hate is hate. So some fixate on color, some religion. It's all wrong. Fine, I'll say it. You took God out of the schools, out of the public and are trying to take Him out of the churches (!!). Look where it's getting us. We are to love, we are all the same color with just some variances in shade and if you don't believe God when he says that, you get into trouble. I'll be looking to my PM folder now.....

 

[christineann]

The "wackos" aren't all supporters of the Confederate flag, and many aren't even from around here. I saw a photo yesterday and a short video of some protesters who were burning Confederate flags and US flags in a city park here. The caption indicated that the video was of a racist cop who wouldn't let them burn a Confederate flag, but the video clearly showed an officer standing quietly holding a US flag in his hands while the Confederate flag burned. Roof gets the victory on this one.

A member of Ms. Jackson's family said this morning that this is not the time to discuss the Confederate flag, but "you know what they say - a politician is not going to let a good crisis go to waste."

 

[dinolounger]

This thread has turned into a discussion about a damn flag.

Yes, on the surface it has. But if you get below the vitriol of the angriest "take it down" posts, you'll find a larger agenda in play.

Even if the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia (which the mainstream media and many people here continue to incorrectly refer to as the "Confederate* flag) comes down, the rancor is not going to end with the flag because it's really not about the flag. It's about destroying the South as a social and political force. It's about isolating and identifying the entire South as Dylann Roof. Not just Charleston or South Carolina, the entire South.

That's what the vigorous efforts to ban a certain symbol are really all about.

 

[Disneefun]

I saw yesterday where retailers like Amazon, etc. are also now banning selling the flag. And all of this because the killer was pictured holding a flag? Guess what? He was also pictured holding a gun. Which one did he use to attack people with? Right. Seems like everyone's trying to ban the wrong thing and expressing outrage over the least important part of the whole thing.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I'm not entirely sure how the national conversation went to the "Confederate Flag". I mean, sure, I don't think it should be flying on government property, but I thought that 15 years ago. I'm not sure what exactly caused this to be a conversation now.

The murderer had a Rhodesian flag and a Apartheid era South African flag on his coat. That's sort of almost related.

Perhaps this is part of the bigger discussion about Southern culture, I'm not sure.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Even if the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia (which the mainstream media and many people here continue to incorrectly refer to as the "Confederate* flag) comes down, the rancor is not going to end with the flag because it's really not about the flag. It's about destroying the South as a social and political force. It's about isolating and identifying the entire South as <<NAME REDACTED BECAUSE HE DOESN'T DESERVE ATTENTION>>. Not just Charleston or South Carolina, the entire South.

That's what the vigorous efforts to ban a certain symbol are really all about.

That depends. Does the South identify itself solely with a war it lost 150 years ago when it seceded from the United States?

 

[Luv2Run]

I fear that the radicals who think that "the south shall rise again" are going to start attacking more places once these flags come down/get banned/etc.

There's a lot of wackos who are just waiting for an excuse to take their anger out on others.

I've already seen these types of reactions here in Virginia. Just this week, I've seen at least a half dozen pickup trucks with large American flags & Confederate flags flying from their truck beds.

 

[Muushka]

This thread has turned into a discussion about a damn flag. A worthless piece of material flying above a monument or museum or whatever.

Take it down. Put another up. Who cares.

The media, candidates, NASCAR and everyone else ahould be having a discussion about prevention and not worrying about getting some feelings hurt.

"Hey, look at me over here...take 'er down now...did I do good? Was that the right answer Mr and Mrs Public?"

Why do we have all these young males committing horrific acts of crime? That should be the conversation. Please don't say "gun control". Not a "cause". Sure as heck wasn't a "symbol" waving in the breeze. So what?

I swear I feel as if I live in a burning building and everyone is arguing if the drapes match the carpet.

Man, I don't know what the answer is but I'd start with the freaking media. You just know that somewhere here in America there is some messed up white dude who doesn't "fit in" and he's thinking, "wow, look at this! I can do that!" He's being desensitized by the day until, "pop" goes the lid.

Ok, rant over.

Yes, on the surface it has. But if you get below the vitriol of the angriest "take it down" posts, you'll find a larger agenda in play.

Even if the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia (which the mainstream media and many people here continue to incorrectly refer to as the "Confederate* flag) comes down, the rancor is not going to end with the flag because it's really not about the flag. It's about destroying the South as a social and political force. It's about isolating and identifying the entire South as Dylann Roof. Not just Charleston or South Carolina, the entire South.

That's what the vigorous efforts to ban a certain symbol are really all about.

Both posts very insightful. Dinolounger, I fear that you are right.

I tried to stay away from this aspect of the crime, but there is so much more going on that I can't help but comment.

A lot of people find the American flag offensive. Will it be next?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

A lot of people find the American flag offensive. Will it be next?

Please explain your logic.

The "Confederate Flag": A flag flown by the army of the Confederacy during a war against the United States of America which it lost. A flag for a confederacy of states that no longer exists. A flag that was never the official flag of the Confederacy, and was not flown on state grounds between the time the war was over and 1962. A flag used without permission by both the KKK and neo Nazis because the Nazi flag is illegal in Europe. That's got to suck, by the way -- having your symbols co-opted by obvious hate groups.

The American Flag: The current flag of an existing country.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

OP here. On vacation so haven't been posting much, but reading. (Ironically enough, visited Gettysburg this week.)

I think the discussions here have been good ones with a variety of opinions. It's good to hear different thoughts.

I agree I don't want to see this thread break down into a "flag debate" any more than I want to see a gun debate here. I just think there are no "simple" answers to this problem we have. Little question it is multi-factorial. There is little hope of solving bigger problems if we get bogged down in these tit-for-tat squabbles every time. We've got to stop being so "offended" if we're to make progress. I think the survivors' families have demonstrated that this week and we should all follow their lead. I'd love to see more discussion about the people involved, tbh.

As for religion, honestly, I don't think that's the answer, either, since religious wars are some of the worst we've seen, and again, we need to move away from that. I do think we need to find our commonality, which is our humanity, and start from there. We can appreciate goodness without religion, necessarily. The question is, where to start? Others have tried to address this before, we know that. We need to look forward, though, not back. What can we do to KEEP moving forward in this world we live in today? That is the question. I will say that being out and about, I see people trying to acknowledge others, and that's a good thing. A smile, or a kindness, no matter how little, can go a long way when everyone keeps paying it forward.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Look, I'm obviously anti Southern Cross. I would prefer that it wasn't flown in any state. Heck, the Southern Cross is a part of the actual regular state flag of Mississippi, which is kind of messed up if you ask me. But I also recognize that the murders that happened last week are more than just about a flag. I think it's a bad idea to think that removing a flag from state grounds is going to change anything. Is now the time to talk about it? I don't know. I certainly can understand how people from the South feel like this is an attack on their whole culture. I don't understand why they are so attached to a flag used in a bloody, horrible war. But I understand that an attachment is there.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I saw yesterday where retailers like Amazon, etc. are also now banning selling the flag. And all of this because the killer was pictured holding a flag? Guess what? He was also pictured holding a gun. Which one did he use to attack people with? Right. Seems like everyone's trying to ban the wrong thing and expressing outrage over the least important part of the whole thing.

Well, to be fair, you cannot buy guns off Amazon.

OTOH, you can buy Nazi paraphernalia.

 

[dinolounger]

I saw yesterday where retailers like Amazon, etc. are also now banning selling the flag.

Looks like Amazon just removed the battle flag, but not all related flags and symbols of the Confederacy. Plenty of that stuff is still available there (including an actual Confederate flag).

And the battle flag is still readily available on Ebay. The latter isn't surprising, for two reasons: first, the controversy over that flag has made it a suddenly hot item and secondly, given the way the eBay listing platform works, it is quite easy for sellers of suddenly hot items to find workarounds to keyword based screens aimed at banning the sale of specific items.

It will be interesting to see if the typical "eBay-banned-item-cat-and-mouse-game" starts erupting there. That's where eBay manually finds and removes listings of "verboten" items, which then pop up again five minutes later under a different title and seller. Ebay knows from experience it can never completely win this game, which it also knows ends on its own once the usually short term demand fades away.

 

[ChrisFL]

You took God out of the schools, out of the public and are trying to take Him out of the churches (!!). Look where it's getting us. We are to love, we are all the same color with just some variances in shade and if you don't believe God when he says that, you get into trouble. I'll be looking to my PM folder now.....

separation of Church and State

 

[AustinTink]

I've already seen these types of reactions here in Virginia. Just this week, I've seen at least a half dozen pickup trucks with large American flags & Confederate flags flying from their truck beds.

And don't forget the pickup trucks with the confederate flag painted directly on the back window. Those never go out of style here in Texas. Lol. There will be even more of them now.