TSA mess and the police

[OceanAnnie]

Which isn't surprising given your personal perspective on the issue.

As it is, we're still waiting to see airlines flying empty. Hasn't happened yet.

1. It got my attention because it is news from the DHS. YMMV.

2. The roll out of the new procedures came about with no warning. Customers that bought their tickets were between a rock and a hard place. Paid for the ticket. No refunds (special conditions applied). It will be interesting to see the impact months out, when customers know what is before them.

Fair enough. It's still just being considered. Four years from now.

Considered yes. There is no "published" projection for expansion to other modes of travel. It is a separate issue.

The four year range is for the installment of more scanners and expanded security. It has already started. IIRC the goal is to have the scanners in place in four years.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Well, none of the actions you cite can be attributed to a LACK of logic. Combination of logic and emotion? Maybe. But long-term decisions like quitting a paying job to stay home and raise one's children? Not just logical and unemotional (despite what one may claim) but likely a rational decision made after much consideration.

The only item in the above list that would display a total lack of logic is the one where the poster claims to have paid $3,000 for each child's first haircut when in actuality that action was merely part of a Walt Disney World vacation.

Just because something is valid does not mean it is logical. My children could have been cared for by others very well. There are plenty of parents who do it. I walked away from a fantastic promotion to be the Financial Analyst for my old companies International Department because I wanted to have babies and snuggle in their hair. Beneficial to me and them, yes. DO I regret it, not a single day. But logical... no, I really can't say DH & my choice could stand under the scrutiny of scientific review when the ultimate truthful answer is "Because I/we wanted it that way". Logic can be very over-rated. I don't need to be validated by other people to be right and logic is an attempt to validate, or invalidate reasoning. Sometimes there is a place for logic and sometimes it has no place in a conversation. Truth is, some things are just about being me

There was nothing at all logical about bringing my 9 month old son to WDW while I was 6 months pregnant with my daughter just because I wanted him to get his first haircut in the Main Street Barber Shop and even less logical about doing the same thing when my preemie was strong enough in 2000. That's all me, and this wasn't a part of the vacations, it was the POINT of the 2 vacations Silly or not, it's just what I wanted.

 

[skater]

Fair enough. It's still just being considered. Four years from now.

Something being considered is worth paying attention to. And you probably know that four years passes oh so quickly .

 

[LuvOrlando]

As it is, we're still waiting to see airlines flying empty. Hasn't happened yet.

To borrow from my Brooklyn friends Oy Vey.

This particular market does not operate in a way which will expose the trouble in an imminent fashion. Most people buy ahead of time because the closer you get to travel dates the more expensive flying gets. As a result, there will be a lag between what is happening today and the end result on the planes. There will be a few months where the airlines are still full because of purchases made months ago. The airlines already know what's what because today's sales are about today, not today's flights. I suspect the airlines will not willingly release this data ahead of the scheduled SEC reports because a reported drop in sales will spook investors which will hurt the stock value and therefore hurt the people in charge of the reports. We're all just going to have to wait. If we start to hear about requests for hand outs in the spring we'll all know why.

 

[LuvOrlando]

OK, I'm finally caught up. Back a ways I noticed a few folks mention that the ACLU decided to back off this issue. Is this true? Seriously? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I didn't see that anywhere myself, in my defense I've had a house full of people and have been laboring under a turkey induced semi-conscious state for days now. Anyhow, if anyone has come across an announcement I'd be interested in reading it... sigh... sad to see that one by one my idols fall

 

[eliza61]

To borrow from my Brooklyn friends Oy Vey.

This particular market does not operate in a way which will expose the trouble in an imminent fashion. Most people buy ahead of time because the closer you get to travel dates the more expensive flying gets. As a result, there will be a lag between what is happening today and the end result on the planes. There will be a few months where the airlines are still full because of purchases made months ago. The airlines already know what's what because today's sales are about today, not today's flights. I suspect the airlines will not willingly release this data ahead of the scheduled SEC reports because a reported drop in sales will spook investors which will hurt the stock value and therefore hurt the people in charge of the reports. We're all just going to have to wait. If we start to hear about requests for hand outs in the spring we'll all know why.

But it also one of the reasons why I don't think these new procedures will really effect the flying public.

Like you said most people purchase flights waay ahead of time to get the best price and most people are infrequent flyers. So ask them what's important when they make their travel plans? 9/10 times the answer you get will be #1 hands down: COST. Next Thanksgiving they will still be faced with the same choices. spend boat loads of time and money to travel alternatively or deal with the scanners for oh 3 minutes, tops.

Now you add to the fact that every one was waiting with bated breath to hear TSA "horror" reports of rape, murder and mayhem and for the most part millions of people flew yesterday without so much of a blip.

Every exit poll through the airports on tv, gave the same refrain. Yep, we're not happy with the pat downs but we'll deal with them. We don't fly enough for it to be a big brooha

We saw this same outrage when all the airlines started with "fee-ng" us to death. Back then there were predictions of airlines going down the tubes yet this year is the first in a very long time, that most of the airlines are predicting to make a profit (optimistically).

Hang out on the budget board or the transportation board. Folks who are planning next years trips are most definitely planning on flying. They are asking questions about what to expect but as a group, by and large they still plan on flying.

 

[jodifla]

http://www.aclu.org/passengers-stories-recent-travel/

This site has over 900 passenger complaints. Some are excerpted, and there is a running theme of people who described what could only be called groping. Many described being touched and rubbed in private areas three or 4 times. Many also describe the hostile reactions of some TSA agents, who seem to relish that basically they have hostages who have to do what they say.

I was the only female in a crowd of men. Even though I was not next in line, I was called over to the body scanner. As I got closer to the scanner, I could clearly hear him say "got a cute one, some DD's." ... I was appalled and decided at that point to "opt out" of the scanner.... I was then put through the pat down procedure which I only can only describe as sexual assault.
- Caitlin, Connecticut


She ran her hands all the way up and into my ---- with force. To get graphic she could have felt if I had a feminine pad on. When she finished with the front she did the same with my back to the point that she, what I would call groped, my butt. She went under, in between, and on my breast. It was more intense than my monthly breast exam.
- Paula M. Hamilton, Corydon, Indiana

The entire affair was very punitive, and humiliating and time consuming and emotionally distressing. When I retrieved my things, I walked into the women's restroom and wept.
- Rosemary, Virginia


Simply, I was sexually assaulted. My breasts were caressed in an almost amorous manner. And on the second canvassing of my groin, single-finger pressure was applied to my ------ - the plane of which was near-broken, during which the agent made a wildly off-color remark.
- B. from Maryland

 

[LuvOrlando]

But it also one of the reasons why I don't think these new procedures will really effect the flying public.

Like you said most people purchase flights waay ahead of time to get the best price and most people are infrequent flyers. So ask them what's important when they make their travel plans? 9/10 times the answer you get will be #1 hands down: COST. Next Thanksgiving they will still be faced with the same choices. spend boat loads of time and money to travel alternatively or deal with the scanners for oh 3 minutes, tops.

Now you add to the fact that every one was waiting with bated breath to hear TSA "horror" reports of rape, murder and mayhem and for the most part millions of people flew yesterday without so much of a blip.

Every exit poll through the airports on tv, gave the same refrain. Yep, we're not happy with the pat downs but we'll deal with them. We don't fly enough for it to be a big brooha

We saw this same outrage when all the airlines started with "fee-ng" us to death. Back then there were predictions of airlines going down the tubes yet this year is the first in a very long time, that most of the airlines are predicting to make a profit (optimistically).

Hang out on the budget board or the transportation board. Folks who are planning next years trips are most definitely planning on flying. They are asking questions about what to expect but as a group, by and large they still plan on flying.

OK, but the people who actually showed up made a decision to accept things as they are, so they are not a valid sample. If you catch people walking out of Red Robin and ask them if they like Red Robin, what sort of response do you really expect? Also, a travel fan website like the DIS is also not a good sample. The glue that holds this whole website together is an arguably irrational love of a cast of characters and an amusement park. There are people here would spend a house payment on a vacation, they/we are not a good sample as a group. We need to be diffused into the general population to be part of a good sample.

An accurate reading will take time because in order to discover a trend you need to have 2 time-lines to compare, there is just no way around it. You can't make any argument about who actually withdrew from the market unless you can see clearly, oh they were here back in 2009 and now they are gone, KWIM?

So many people keep talking about what other people will or will not do, again no-one can predict that with any degree of certainty at all. I KNOW I am out of the market and I know it is unreasonable to think I am the only one who feels this way. Now the actual number of how many people will or will not make the same decision as me has yet to be determined. No-one can do that, not me, not you, not the TSA, not the airlines... no-one. Time will tell, and only time.... I'm patient.

 

[LuvOrlando]

http://www.aclu.org/passengers-stories-recent-travel/

This site has over 900 passenger complaints. Some are excerpted, and there is a running theme of people who described what could only be called groping. Many described being touched and rubbed in private areas three or 4 times. Many also describe the hostile reactions of some TSA agents, who seem to relish that basically they have hostages who have to do what they say.

I saw these but I didn't find a spot on the site that mentions whether they will proceed or stay their hand. If more than one person heard it something must have been made public... well, it could just be a rumor intended to demoralize I suppose. Really, nothing would surprise me right about now... sigh... I am too young to be so jaded. 40 is young right, could be I'm right on schedule

 

[kaytieeldr]

2. The roll out of the new procedures came about with no warning.

Can't speak for the enhanced pat-downs because I wasn't paying attention; but the scanners? No, those didn't come along with no warning. Without paying attention, I've been aware for months that these were going to be incorporated at airports nationwide. If anything, I'm surprised there aren't more of them.

There will be a few months where the airlines are still full because of purchases made months ago. The airlines already know what's what because today's sales are about today, not today's flights.

Well, I continue to monitor my upcoming holiday flights, and the number of available seats continues to drop; so even with the publicity given to the new procedures, people ARE currently purchasing airline tickets. Since I started doing this about ten days ago, my return flight has gained about six passengers (low, I know, but it IS Christmas day); and my outbound flight - about 26 MORE passengers. It makes sense that these people know about the new security procedures... and still choose to fly.

 

[eliza61]

OK, but the people who actually showed up made a decision to accept things as they are, so they are not a valid sample. If you catch people walking out of Red Robin and ask them if they like Red Robin, what sort of response do you really expect?

An accurate reading will take time because in order to discover a trend you need to have 2 time-lines to compare, there is just no way around it. You can't make any argument about who actually opted out unless you can see clearly, oh they were here back in 2009 and now they are gone, KWIM?

So many people keep talking about what other people will or will not do, again no-one can predict that with any degree of certainty at all. I KNOW I am out of the market and I know it is unreasonable to think I am the only one who feels this way. Now the actual number of how many people will or will not make the same decision as me has yet to be determined. No-one can do that, not me, not you, not the TSA, not the airlines... no-one. Time will tell, and only time.... I'm patient.

Well pointed out. I just think generally as Americans we suffer from "short term" memory which in this situations like this, time is not a good thing.

As I said, we've had too many of these "that's it, no more for me" scenerios that never really pan out. most recent as I said was the "fees fiasco".

I was pretty much simply following the "chatter" from here on the dis, I think some one ran a poll over on the transportation forum that pretty much asked "will you continue to fly or find alternate transportation" and the resounding response (~80%) was still fly.

My job has not given any indication that business flying will slow down or stop. I've got 3 flights scheduled in December (2 business and 1 pleasure, Las Vegas baby!!)
Generally we have 27 people who routinely fly and not one has remotely suggested that we start tele-confrencing or find other means.

 

[eliza61]

http://www.aclu.org/passengers-stories-recent-travel/

This site has over 900 passenger complaints. Some are excerpted, and there is a running theme of people who described what could only be called groping. Many described being touched and rubbed in private areas three or 4 times. Many also describe the hostile reactions of some TSA agents, who seem to relish that basically they have hostages who have to do what they say.

I was the only female in a crowd of men. Even though I was not next in line, I was called over to the body scanner. As I got closer to the scanner, I could clearly hear him say "got a cute one, some DD's." ... I was appalled and decided at that point to "opt out" of the scanner.... I was then put through the pat down procedure which I only can only describe as sexual assault.
- Caitlin, Connecticut


She ran her hands all the way up and into my ---- with force. To get graphic she could have felt if I had a feminine pad on. When she finished with the front she did the same with my back to the point that she, what I would call groped, my butt. She went under, in between, and on my breast. It was more intense than my monthly breast exam.
- Paula M. Hamilton, Corydon, Indiana

The entire affair was very punitive, and humiliating and time consuming and emotionally distressing. When I retrieved my things, I walked into the women's restroom and wept.
- Rosemary, Virginia


Simply, I was sexually assaulted. My breasts were caressed in an almost amorous manner. And on the second canvassing of my groin, single-finger pressure was applied to my ------ - the plane of which was near-broken, during which the agent made a wildly off-color remark.
- B. from Maryland

LOL,
Philadelphia saw a huge increase in civil rights violations against the Philadelphia police department over the last 3 years. I guess by this analogy we should do away with the cops also (which I actually think might not be a bad idea. If you think the TSA has thugs, never ever come to Philly)
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/109068639.html?cmpid=15585797

 

[jodifla]

Well pointed out. I just think generally as Americans we suffer from "short term" memory which in this situations like this, time is not a good thing.

As I said, we've had too many of these "that's it, no more for me" scenerios that never really pan out. most recent as I said was the "fees fiasco".

I was pretty much simply following the "chatter" from here on the dis, I think some one ran a poll over on the transportation forum that pretty much asked "will you continue to fly or find alternate transportation" and the resounding response (~80%) was still fly.

I despise these new regulations, but will likely still fly, because I want to get from point A to point B.

But, I have already called my congresspeople to register my complaint. And I WILL keep speaking out against these procedures, no matter how many of my fellow citizens want me to just lie down and take it.

 

[Muushka]

OK, but the people who actually showed up made a decision to accept things as they are, so they are not a valid sample. If you catch people walking out of Red Robin and ask them if they like Red Robin, what sort of response do you really expect?

An accurate reading will take time because in order to discover a trend you need to have 2 time-lines to compare, there is just no way around it. You can't make any argument about who actually opted out unless you can see clearly, oh they were here back in 2009 and now they are gone, KWIM?

So many people keep talking about what other people will or will not do, again no-one can predict that with any degree of certainty at all. I KNOW I am out of the market and I know it is unreasonable to think I am the only one who feels this way. Now the actual number of how many people will or will not make the same decision as me has yet to be determined. No-one can do that, not me, not you, not the TSA, not the airlines... no-one. Time will tell, and only time.... I'm patient.

We are also out of the market. My husband is not a flyer, avoids it at all cost, but I do. We were planning to do a Panama Canal cruise in 2012 for our anniversary. If what is happening today is still happening in 2012, we will not be doing a PC (unless we can find a really great deal on back to back PCs!).

I flew out of Providence last month. The girl in front of me was escorted to the area where they had the scanner. I remember at the time that I was stunned that they even had it and that they were using it. I know if my place in line had been shortened by 1, it would have been me. I am not so sure I would have gone peacefully to it as the girl did.

I find it ironic that there was such a huge uproar when people in AZ, when being stopped by the police (after some sort of traffic violation or crime) would have to show some sort of identification, proof of citizenship.
Or some proposing that in order to vote in an election, show proof of who you are.

And yet if you want to fly, you not only need identification, you are also treated as a criminal when you have done nothing wrong.

This country is disintegrating before our eyes. And that is fine with a lot of people. Not me.

 

[eliza61]

I despise these new regulations, but will likely still fly, because I want to get from point A to point B.

But, I have already called my congresspeople to register my complaint. And I WILL keep speaking out against these procedures, no matter how many of my fellow citizens want me to just lie down and take it.

100% agree with you. I have done like wise but I simply will not stop flying because of the new regulations, simply too much of the things I love involve getting to point b effeciently and economically.

 

[jodifla]

LOL,
Philadelphia saw a huge increase in civil rights violations against the Philadelphia police department over the last 3 years. I guess by this analogy we should do away with the cops also (which I actually think might not be a bad idea. If you think the TSA has thugs, never ever come to Philly)
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/109068639.html?cmpid=15585797

No, it's not to get rid of the cops, it's to HAVE THEM DO THEIR JOBS correctly and WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LAW.

Likewise, individual TSA agents must be held accountable when they do things like holler "Got a cutie coming, DDs" or standing around laughing as passengers are groped or trying to punish them because they prefer a pat down instead of the machine.

 

[eliza61]

Oh yes, hardy har har. Very funny.

What a wild leap of logic. No, it's not to get rid of the cops, it's to HAVE THEM DO THEIR JOBS correctly and WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LAW.

Likewise, individual TSA agents must be held accountable when they do things like holler "Got a cutie coming, DDs" or standing around laughing as passengers are groped or trying to punish them because they prefer a pat down instead of the machine.

Seriously, is EVERYTHING these people do OK with you? There's simply no limit to the intimidation or harassment TSA agents can pile on to fellow humans simply because they wanted to get on a plane?

No not at all, but I do want to point out that not EVERYTHING they do is criminal, like you seem to want to paint. So for every vile act you seem to scour the internet to find, I will point out that by and large most TSA agents are doing their jobs humanely, professionally and legally.

So when you want to spread the horror stories, yep I will be here to bring the opposite side of the insanity.

just like EVERY single job in the world there are creeps, they are no more harasssing or intimidating then the Police or Catholic priest or little league baseball Coaches.

So then what's the point of your post? We've established numerous times that there are some abuses occuring, we;ve also established that they need to get rid of the wackadoodles. So basically it's once again meant to portray them as "foaming at the mouth, deranged, psycho-sex crazed" criminals.

Yeah, I plan on bringing it up each and every time.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Well pointed out. I just think generally as Americans we suffer from "short term" memory which in this situations like this, time is not a good thing.

As I said, we've had too many of these "that's it, no more for me" scenerios that never really pan out. most recent as I said was the "fees fiasco".

I was pretty much simply following the "chatter" from here on the dis, I think some one ran a poll over on the transportation forum that pretty much asked "will you continue to fly or find alternate transportation" and the resounding response (~80%) was still fly.

Well, people will lie to enhance their point. That is undeniable and it goes for both sides of the equation. The only people who actually matter are those who have the ability to make their own decisions and the money to make the choice. They will be measured by the market.

I don't really think American's actually have short term memories at all. I think the various establishments tend to equate the news with the population so they think if they can win in the info wars they can win in real life. I think this approach is a neat little way to marginalize people but I think it's dead wrong. I think most people have very long memories. We like to be constantly entertained, as evidenced by the quick moves of the media, but that doesn't mean we forget.

 

[LuvOrlando]

No not at all, but I do want to point out that not EVERYTHING they do is criminal, like you seem to want to paint. So for every vile act you seem to scour the internet to find, I will point out that by and large most TSA agents are doing their jobs humanely, professionally and legally.

So when you want to spread the horror stories, yep I will be here to bring the opposite side of the insanity.

just like EVERY single job in the world there are creeps, they are no more harasssing or intimidating then the Police or Catholic priest or little league baseball Coaches.

I don't think that's really the point. People like me have a huge problem with the extraordinary amount of room for error not the certainty of trouble.

There are laws against leaving children alone unattended because there is a potential for trouble, not because trouble will absolutely find the kid. There are laws against speeding because speeding increases the likelihood of a bad outcome, not because every person who speeds will have a bad outcome. This is pretty much the basis for laws which are meant to limit bad outcomes KWIM?

 

[DMRick]

Seriously, is EVERYTHING these people do OK with you? There's simply no limit to the intimidation or harassment TSA agents can pile on to fellow humans simply because they wanted to get on a plane?

Not for me. I want the agents that need sensitivity training to be pulled and either fired or retrained. There is bad, as someone said upthread in every occupation. I don't want church services to stop because of a few bad priests, or our police crew removed for the same reason (although we had so many in jail at one time, I thought it would collapse). I don't want all school bus drivers removed, just because we have had a couple of instances where bus drivers had to be fired. I want the PTB to pay attention, and work on the bad parts, so these things don't happen.

You will always have some that for personal reasons won't be able to fly, in case they are chosen to be patted down. Even if each and every TSA agent is very careful, but for the most part, there should not be stories as told above.

The other thing is, they could tape each and every pat down, which would do more to insure the agents are doing everything above board, but I'd be willing to bet that most do not want their pat down to be recorded.
I want the TSA people in charge to take note, and implement a way for people to complain, and those people that are not doing the job right, to be taken care of.