TSA mess and the police

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It may not work for other people. That's okay. (and yes, i've done the partial cross country trip, MS to LA and I survived, im sure my kids will too!)

I'm sure they will. We too were short on money when there were 5 of us, braces, school, etc. We RV'd (and still do). Once it became more feasible and affordable, we switched to flying..just couldn't figure out how to get that RV overseas LOL.

I wouldn't give up one trip (well, maybe when one of the kids threw up in the car just as we pulled out of Disney (when you used to pay at the campground as you pulled out and we knew we had 1200 miles ahead of us in that car) we took as a family. But I wouldn't do them again either, now that I don't have too LOL! At the time, they were just what we wanted to do.
 
The problem is, you really don't have the 'right' to discuss politics on this board (cause the powers that be took away that 'right' as owners). If you and others keep doing it, we can kiss this thread goodbye.

This is very true. And I have purposely avoided straying into specific political debates (i.e., discussing my choice of candidates, my views on specific issues other than the one at hand, and so forth). Thus far, the powers that be have graciously allowed us to discuss broad-stroke ideals that are relevant to the specific topic (representative government vs. totalitarian regimes, Constitutional law and the like). Should the powers that be ask us to refrain from those broad-stroke general points of debate, I will be happy to oblige. But so far it seems that the challenge is coming from specific posters and ONLY when it refers to a very specific line of conversation with which some people seem uncomfortable.
 
They generally don't ask, but just lock it. At least that is how it has been in the past. And it hasn't been just about candidates and the other things you mentioned, but politics in any part.

Should the powers that be ask us to refrain from those broad-stroke general points of debate, I will be happy to oblige. But so far it seems that the challenge is coming from specific posters and ONLY when it refers to a very specific line of conversation with which some people seem uncomfortable.

I'm sure not uncomfortable, but am avoiding responding to those posts (as I avoided the posts about religion and who doesn't or does need to be scanned), because I am enjoying this thread. I don't want points, nor do I want the thread to close.

Even rights we think we have, we don't, on something as simple as a Disney board. Such is life. :(
 
They generally don't ask, but just lock it. At least that is how it has been in the past. And it hasn't been just about candidates and the other things you mentioned, but politics in any part.



I'm sure not uncomfortable, but am avoiding responding to those posts (as I avoided the posts about religion and who doesn't or does need to be scanned), because I am enjoying this thread. I don't want points, nor do I want the thread to close.

Even rights we think we have, we don't, on something as simple as a Disney board. Such is life. :(

Fair enough, and a valid point. I'm enjoying the thread too. :thumbsup2 I bet LuvOrlando never dreamed it would get this big or this passionate. I think this whole topic is fascinating, and sort of a "government in action" thing that we rarely get to witness in such a major way.

I did want to bring something up to the thread as a whole. A lot of people have mentioned business travelers in the "have to fly" category. I'm sure for some that's true. But my dad traveled a LOT for business before he retired. His trips were always structured such that he didn't have to be anywhere before Monday morning, and he was generally there on a weekly basis (might be one week, might be six, but always counted in weeks).

He was also given X amount of travel money. He could choose to spend it on a plane ticket and a rental car, or on gas for his personal car. He always chose to drive his personal car and take my mom and me along with him. The company paid for the room, but Dad was responsible for any extra person charges. Likewise, he get a set per diem for food--if we could all eat on it, great. If not, he paid the difference.

My mom and I ended up with probably hundreds of vacations that we wouldn't have otherwise gotten by doing it that way. If the location was within a three-day drive (Friday night to Monday morning), Dad wouldn't even miss a day of work. If it was farther, he'd take off a couple days on either end. Sometimes he'd take off extra days anyway to enjoy some vacation time with us before heading home.

That's when I developed my love of road trips, and probably why I've never felt that I *had* to fly. Flying was something we did occasionally because it was fun, but we had a lot of fun on those road trips too. We meandered all over the place, stopped off at roadside attractions, played endless car games, read books to each other...I have some fantastic memories of the "getting there," not just the "being there." And it's all thanks to my dad's business trips.

I know some people have business trips that are more tightly structured than that. But if you have to travel for business and you *do* have the weekend available, try driving it sometime, regardless of how you feel about airport security. It really is a whole different way of life! :thumbsup2
 

His trips were always structured such that he didn't have to be anywhere before Monday morning, and he was generally there on a weekly basis (might be one week, might be six, but always counted in weeks). :thumbsup2

Air used to be a lot more expensive..now gas and extra days in hotels might cost more! My son does a lot of flying, both international (he lives overseas) and the US for business. Even if cities are close, they fly him from city to city, as they do the others he works with. When we fly, I always see lots of men in suits, that I assume are businessmen...so I think a lot of business people are still flying.

On a different note, I am proud to know some of those over on the disibilities thread. With what some of them have and will have to go through to fly, they are really handling it well. Some over there have really had to face a lot, and many are just taking this as the troopers they have been in the past.
 
I'm sure they will. We too were short on money when there were 5 of us, braces, school, etc. We RV'd (and still do). Once it became more feasible and affordable, we switched to flying..just couldn't figure out how to get that RV overseas LOL.

I wouldn't give up one trip (well, maybe when one of the kids threw up in the car just as we pulled out of Disney (when you used to pay at the campground as you pulled out and we knew we had 1200 miles ahead of us in that car) we took as a family. But I wouldn't do them again either, now that I don't have too LOL! At the time, they were just what we wanted to do.

I have a dd with sketchy motion sickness. She has gotten sick on all modes of transport except trains. Doesn't matter how we go...our friend Dramamine comes along.
 
Air used to be a lot more expensive..now gas and extra days in hotels might cost more! My son does a lot of flying, both international (he lives overseas) and the US for business. Even if cities are close, they fly him from city to city, as they do the others he works with. When we fly, I always see lots of men in suits, that I assume are businessmen...so I think a lot of business people are still flying.

On a different note, I am proud to know some of those over on the disibilities thread. With what some of them have and will have to go through to fly, they are really handling it well. Some over there have really had to face a lot, and many are just taking this as the troopers they have been in the past.

Oh, I definitely think that businesspeople are still flying in large numbers. I just think that even many of them (certainly not all) DO have an option. It's just in the past ten years or so that flying has become cheap, and people have started to rely on it. Flying certainly isn't, for most people, the end-all, be all that it is sometimes made out to be. Even on the day before Thanksgiving, the biggest travel day of the year, only 4 percent of travelers went by air.

On your other note, my dad's pretty severely disabled as well. Yet he travels full-time with me, and is amazingly resilient. I only hope that if I ever become disabled, I can be half as strong about it as he is.
 
I'm not sure how. You seem to be skipping over a vital phrase in that post:The current procedure is just barely a blip at domestic airports now - not that anyone could tell, given the media attention to the few; can't see anything being expanded beyond airports any time soon.

I wouldn't call it barely a blip.

"With TSA's plans to barrel ahead with installation of as many as 1,800 scanners by 2014 at a cost of $234 to $300 million, the horse has left the barn — and the backlash has been huge."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travelwise/2013474414_trpucci19.html
 
I wouldn't call it barely a blip.

"With TSA's plans to barrel ahead with installation of as many as 1,800 scanners by 2014 at a cost of $234 to $300 million, the horse has left the barn — and the backlash has been huge."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travelwise/2013474414_trpucci19.html
Understood. But this isn't 2014 - it's still just 2010. Since we're still far from that[/] window and number, it seems a great waste of energy to worry about a "rumored expansion being considered" for other modes of transportation.
 
Understood. But this isn't 2014 - it's still just 2010. Since we're still far from that[/] window and number, it seems a great waste of energy to worry about a "rumored expansion being considered" for other modes of transportation.


The rumor is from the DHS, it is credible. It got my attention.
 
Airport?
Type scanner?
Any patdown?

Just trying to catch up on this thread, but this was my experience last week:

Orlando (MCO)
normal metal detector-type scanner, same one I've walked through hundreds of times
no backscatter scanner, no patdown, nothing out of the ordinary, though the guy who checked my boarding pass and driver's license did comment that I must be growing my hair out (compared to my DL pic, which is going on 5 years old), which caught me a little off guard. At least he was paying attn to things, though.


St. Louis (Lambert Intl Airport)
normal metal detector-type scanner, same one I've walked through hundreds of times
no backscatter scanner, no patdown

The only people I saw getting pulled out of line for further scrutiny were those who'd set off the metal detectors. That's it. They were doing random bag checks on people in line for boarding (Southwest) at Lambert, however, which is something I don't recall ever seeing done there before (though I have seen it elsewhere).
 
An interesting take on the whole situation, including an analysis of the Israeli security system and the lobbying efforts that got these scanners on the fast track.

TSA: True Safety Averted
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-n-bendetson/tsa-true-safety-averted_1_b_788393.html

In light of recent events sparked by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), there has been much debate and discussion over the importance of balancing civil liberties with national safety. There is no doubt that this is an important conversation worth having in regards to issues like military tribunals or wiretapping. However, debating this political trade-off is irrelevant when discussing TSA security procedures. Trade-offs imply receiving something in return for a sacrifice. While Americans are increasingly expected to forgo any right to privacy and personal liberty, TSA policies have continuously proven ineffective in carrying out their promised goals. Their new policies on bodyscanners and pat-downs have come to symbolize a decade of flawed administration.

The most obvious irony that emerges when discussing the newly controversial body scanners is that a policy designed to promote passenger safety can actually jeopardize it. While the verdict is still out on studying the health risks associated with these body scanners, many red flags have already been raised. The Allied Pilots Association (the union for all American pilots) has urged its members to opt out of a body scanning due to the "ionizing radiation, which could be harmful to their health." Specifically, studies out of the University of California and John Hopkins University sight a growing fear that these scanners could potentially lead to skin cancer. While the TSA vehemently denies these assertions, they simultaneously refuse to allow for an independent and secondary evaluation of its scanners.

The TSA's war on the scientific method extends beyond the scanner's health effects to their perceived benefit on national security. While these scanners prove effective in detecting a bottle of Tylenol on an older mother or a case of contact solution on a young student, they are ineffective at detecting the new and more complicated liquid combinations used for explosives by terrorists. Former chief of security at the Israel Airport Authority, Rafi Seli summarizes their flaws in noting, "I don't know why everybody is running to buy these expensive and useless machines. I can overcome the body scanners with enough explosives to bring down a Boeing 747." While the TSA presents these machines as the future to aviation security, Italy has dumped their usage of scanners after just six months of operation. The President of Italy's aviation authority, Vito Riggio noted in addition to being excessively time consuming, the machines simply are not effective in ensuring safety.

The failure of these body scanners is part of a larger concern with regards to the TSA and their security focus. The incompetence of the TSA in the past decade results from their continuously retroactive approach to national security instead of a proactive one. Simply, Americans will not be safe as long as the TSA continues to focus on the "what" instead of the "who." Terrorists act and organize in cells, and thus use ever evolving and adapting methods to accomplish their goals. Attempting to deter terrorists by anticipating their methods will inevitably prove futile; they will adapt to the status quo and operate out of another perceived weakness in the system. After banning knifes and sharp objects following 9/11, Richard Reid used a shoe bomb to evade security. Following the forceful removal of all shoe wear, al Qaeda operatives used liquid explosives. After banning passengers from carrying liquids, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab employed plastic explosives hidden in his underwear during his attempted Christmas Day bombing. As a result we have universal body scanners, but one can only imagine the terrorists' response. The TSA's retroactive approach is clearly designed to thwart past terrorists instead of future ones.

While the TSA has set out to strike "a balance between privacy and safety" there approach is simply failing on both accounts. Despite a TSA aversion to empirical evidence and practical analysis, a thorough examination of Israeli security procedures could offer noteworthy improvements to both American security and passenger liberties. Despite a history filled with never-ending threats from the Arab world, Israeli's have experienced a greater degree of safety in the air than their American counterparts. Without a terrorist attack on an airplane in nearly four decades, Israel's proactive approach is one worth replicating. While many critics of the "Israelification" of security proceedings cite its use of racial profiling, the system is actually designed around behavioral profiling. At several different points throughout security proceedings, passengers are stopped and questioned. These conversations with travelers are conducted in car lines, identification stations, and baggage drop-off areas. In the process, Israeli security guards roam the area in search of suspicious behavior. Although a terrorist could potentially elude one Israeli agent, there is little chance his intentions can be hidden from an entire team.

As the TSA is focused on examining the contents of our shoes and that of our liquid containers, Israeli officials are studying the eyes and the mental disposition of its travelers. Israeli security expert, Rafi Seia summarizes the contrast in noting, "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes, and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys." In a prime example, one needs to only examine the TSA's failure with the Christmas Day bomber to understand a larger systematic failure in American security. Abdulmutallab had been placed on various terrorist watch lists and had recently journeyed to Yemen to "network" with Al Qaeda. If the TSA had been focused on the man's character instead of his possessions, the incident would have been averted.

While those who believe the TSA is on the proper path to security are mistaken, it is equally foolish to assume that a uniform copy of Israeli's security system is the complete solution to all of our woes. The Israeli system relies intensely on scrutiny over a passenger's travel records and personal background. While there is much outrage over these new pat downs and body scanners, obtaining access to personal information has proven difficult in the past. In 2003, Congress rejected the Bush administration's proposal to obtain "itineraries and related information" for all domestic travelers. However in light of new procedures, Americans would rather see the examination of their personal information than that of their private parts. Finally, the inevitable debate emerges about racial profiling. While the Israeli system is designed to detect suspicious behavior and not specific races, the overwhelming majority of people apprehended are Arabs. Although our security would be increased by adopting methods similar to that of Israeli's, the government would still be faced with a fight from civil liberties organizations.

All the American people are asking for is open discussion on this issue -- based on empirical evidence and not the ideology of fear. Instead, the American people have been ignored in favor of high-powered lobbyists. Makers of body scanners have spent millions of dollars over the course of the past year in lobbying the government for permanent use of their machines. L-3 Communications which has sold $39.7 million in scanners to the government, allocated over $4.3 million for lobbying purposes in just the first nine months of the calendar year. These lobbying firms recently worked hard to defeat a bill proposed by Congressman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) to limit the use of body scanners at the airport. Somehow a feeling lingers that L-3 Communications and their lobbyists' objections to this bill were not based on the long-term interest of the American people, but rather their short term profit margin.

The most startling result of this entire debate over the use of body scanners has been the complete 180-degree turn of the Obama Administration and also it's foot soldiers in the Democratic Party. While our favorite constitutional law professor ran for the presidency on the notion of balancing civil liberties with security, President Obama has proven to distance himself from the ongoing debate. Similar to his lack of movement on Guantanamo and wiretapping, the President's actions on airport security lag well beyond his words. However, if the President truly believes that body scanners and pat downs are the most effective method to ensuring safety, then he needs to set the example and not hide behind the TSA. Similar to President Jimmy Carter's turning down the thermostat and wearing a sweater to support his new energy policy, President Barack Obama should agree to a full body scan or a groping pat-down before every flight on Air Force One to support his national security plan. American safety and civil liberties are serious issues, but America cannot afford to settle for a policy that does injustice to the former and the latter.
 
But one could always choose to simply take the Queen Mary 2 from New York to London. It adds a week each way to the trip and often sells for as low as $600 per person. From London, it is extremely easy to access any part of Europe by rail, and is relatively inexpensive.

Of course most people don't think of it, and some can't spare the time. But you weren't speaking in generalities when you told LuvOrlando that she was choosing not to travel because she chose not to fly. That was the same type of hyperbole that I've repeatedly been accused of in this thread. Sometimes you just have to think outside the box to accomplish your goals.

The QM2 may sell for as low as $600/pp, but airfare to London frequently sells for $600/pp RT. Costs are still doubled.

I wasn't speaking in generalities, thank you for pointing that out. Since the OP stated that she will never go to Aruba and her only vacation plans include packing everyone in the car and visiting the Jersey Shore, Cape Cod, Cape May, Cedar Point, etc. in the short term and maybe the US, Griswold style in the long-term. In her previous posts, she has no intentions of taking water transportation to Aruba, Europe, or anywhere else. She has explained throughout that her vacation plans are curtailed due to the fact that she refuses to go through the new security and fly.

This was not hyperbole - hyperbole is "obvious and intentional exaggeration" (dictionary.com). I was not exaggerating. I may have been incorrect, but based on the facts presented (she will not fly to Aruba, therefore, she can't visit Aruba), I was not. Maybe she'll change her mind, but for the present, she has no intention of another mode of transportation to Aruba (or hasn't indicated such).

The hyperbole that I've seen is when posters have called the patdowns "groping" (slang, "To handle or fondle for sexual pleasure"), "cavity search" ("A body cavity search is either a visual search or a manual internal inspection of body cavities such as for prohibited material (contraband), such as illegal drugs, money, jewelry, or weapons"), "fondling" ("To handle, stroke, or caress lovingly"), "assault" ("An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm").

I believe it minimizes the strength of those terms and that they will become diluted. I prefer to teach my kids what those terms *really" mean. That... from my perspective, is hyperbole.
 
deleted

help me change the things I can, accept the things I can't and grant me the wisdom to know the difference

It's amazing how much of all the above I've needed on this thread ;)
 
It doesn't matter if you have served in the military, are young or old, are a former law enforcement officer or have a top-level security clearance. When standing in the security line, everyone is treated the same - like a potential terrorist - and that, inherently, is the problem.

The system, like many government programs, is built on a base line of "fairness." This approach removes common-sense decision-making from the process and, as a result, Grandma's walker and Junior's leg braces are weapons until proved otherwise. Not to mention the hip-replacement-and-pacemaker crowd that sets off the metal detectors.

There is no doubt that the TSA's security measures are in response to legitimate and actual threats, but the process and methodology for who is selected for screening is flawed.

Admitting mistakes and pledging to both learn from and correct them shows a level of responsiveness and concern that people appreciate. We all have the same goal - security without unduly limiting our personal freedoms - and the TSA needs to do a better job of engaging the public it is sworn to protect.


Ken Adelman is co-founder of Movers and Shakespeares, which offers executive training and leadership development.



Airport security has become a performance art. It reassures passengers they're safe. And it reinforces national hysteria over terrorism. Get real: Some terrorist attack will come. Some people will be killed. But the nation will survive.

Yearly, auto accidents bring 33,000-plus deaths. That's a lot. Every time you turn the ignition key, you risk death. Yet you keep turning that key. You accept that risk, realizing it's a lot better than being grounded.

Donald F. Kettl is dean of the School of Public Policy at the University of Maryland.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/27/AR2010112700266_2.html

Tough for me to add anything to these thoughts.
 
The rumor is from the DHS, it is credible. It got my attention.
Which isn't surprising given your personal perspective on the issue.

As it is, we're still waiting to see airlines flying empty. Hasn't happened yet.
 
Huffington Post article said:
While Americans are increasingly expected to forgo any right to privacy and personal liberty
That word "any" is misleading and, at least as things stand, inaccurate based on experiences posted here (small microcosm of airline passengers since new procedures went into effect), given that most, if not all, posters who've flown this month have either had the same old, same old - or went through the scanners with no issues.

The most obvious irony that emerges when discussing the newly controversial body scanners is that a policy designed to promote passenger safety can actually jeopardize it. While the verdict is still out on studying the health risks associated with these body scanners, many red flags have already been raised. The Allied Pilots Association (the union for all American pilots) has urged its members to opt out
And again - passengers are different from flight crews. Most flight crews fly daily (major radiation exposure) and often - but not always - need to go through security more than once a day. RARELY is that true of airline passengers, so the author of this article claiming potential passenger jeopardy by using citing a pilots' union recommendation is sensationalizing.

In a prime example, one needs to only examine the TSA's failure with the Christmas Day bomber to understand a larger systematic failure in American security. Abdulmutallab had been placed on various terrorist watch lists and had recently journeyed to Yemen to "network" with Al Qaeda. If the TSA had been focused on the man's character instead of his possessions, the incident would have been averted.
Nice try. Does this writer say when the TSA set up in Yemen or was it Denmark - the airports out of which Abdulmutallab flew? Because if we're not there, I'm not sure how they could have checked his possessions OR his eyes. I'm not talking about intelligence, or Homeland Security ignoring communication from the man's own father. I'm addressing the specific claim made by this reporter.

The most startling result of this entire debate over the use of body scanners has been the complete 180-degree turn of the Obama Administration and also it's foot soldiers in the Democratic Party.
And ultimately, if a reporter and editor can't use the proper form of a simple word - basic grammar, something anyone who writes for a living should know - I hold no faith in the actual content of the writing. While we're at is, someone should let him know you can't lag well beyond something. If you're lagging, it's behind.
 
surfgirl said:
"assault" ("An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm").
Thank you. All the people tossing around the word assault? They probably actually mean "battery". Assault is the threat, battery is the contact. How do I know? I've been a victim - and yet, if necessary, I'm willing to let the TSA officers pat me down. I'd still rather have the hot-looking 25 year old man do it, but that opens the TSA to accusations of, well, you know... ;)
 
True, but all such aspects of "the humanity of the issues" - the aspects reflective of you being a parent, and the aspects reflective of people being passengers, and the aspects reflective of people being business owners and managers, the aspects reflective of people being legislators and government officials, etc. None of those aspects gets to prevails over the others, just because it happens to be the one closest to your heart.

True, but laws that swing in the breeze of emotion, especially those buffeted by the winds of fabricated fear, uncertainty and doubt, are not laws at all. A society that allows the emotion of the moment to trump the logical consideration of the issue, including its emotional aspects, through defined processes of governance, rather than through salaciousness-hungry and sensationalistic media, is not a civilization but rather is an anarchy.

That the thing though, the interpretation of law is absolutely vulnerable to the mood of the moment. As a woman I am eternally grateful for it too because the mood of the Suffrage Movement bought me my right to vote and the breeze of the Civial Rights Movement brought others their rights. It's not anarchy, this is the design of our government. It's true, not all of our leaders are elected, some are appointed by different vehicles or chosen in closed door elections such as the Electoral College so you are correct, at least 1 branch is a Republic. However, it is also true that a great many of our representatives are actually elected by us and remember, we are granted access to the courts . We have a few options to influence our governance (for what you term self serving reasons), and it's not an accident those stop gaps are present. Those stopgaps are present to prevent a repeat of the wild disconnect between the government and the governed which lead to the creation of this country in the first place.

The study of how governments behave and how the people relate to governance is Political Science and the bottom line is the study is very much a Social Science. That's not an error any more then my field Economics is an error in being called a Social Science. People love to try and quantify everything and to an extent it is possible, people do behave in measurable & predictable ways once certain criteria are met. However, the variables that any group determines to be pertinent are absolutely arbitrary. For example, an Economist could draw up endless charts on the market of the Lalaloopsey doll once it exists. What an Economist can't do is look at a flat playing field and predict which product is going to take off at any given time and predict with any certainty what that market looks like because that is where the human part comes in, that is where Speculation comes in and Investors are forced to adopt risk. Consider all the failed goods and services out there, no matter how well something is done sometimes it just doesn't work because people just don't want it and there is no way to chart that... although people can try. The best minds have tried but alas, they tend to fail because of the Existential reality that no one person can ever truly know another, much less in a group. ALL Social Sciences are limited in this way.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Where even the most sophisticated Science fails and the Social part takes over. This isn't anarchy, it's the human state of being en masse. People crave order which is why humans tolerate a human created social construct in the first place. However, since humanity is flexible a successful government must be equally flexible, which is why our government was designed the way it is. The arrangement is elegantly fluid and symbiotic....I am a great admirer:goodvibes

BTW, Bicker, if you have something to say please do so in paragraph form. I just refuse to do the line by line deconstructed thing anymore ok, it's simply too tedious and I've got kids home today so I need to reserve some little gray cells for them to dance on:dance3:
 
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