TSA mess and the police

[LuvOrlando]

Not for me. I want the agents that need sensitivity training to be pulled and either fired or retrained. There is bad, as someone said upthread in every occupation. I don't want church services to stop because of a few bad priests, or our police crew removed for the same reason (although we had so many in jail at one time, I thought it would collapse). I don't want all school bus drivers removed, just because we have had a couple of instances where bus drivers had to be fired. I want the PTB to pay attention, and work on the bad parts, so these things don't happen.

You will always have some that for personal reasons won't be able to fly, in case they are chosen to be patted down. Even if each and every TSA agent is very careful, but for the most part, there should not be stories as told above.

The other thing is, they could tape each and every pat down, which would do more to insure the agents are doing everything above board, but I'd be willing to bet that most do not want their pat down to be recorded.
I want the TSA people in charge to take note, and implement a way for people to complain, and those people that are not doing the job right, to be taken care of.

Having a record of each and every pat down would certainly go a long way towards improving transparency and would also work as a good deterrent.

 

[Planogirl]

A long time ago a few of us asked what might be next and should there ever be limits. A few others said at that time that there was no reason to assume that anything would be next and to think otherwise was paranoid. It appears that a lot has come up that was "next" and now once again I ask, what's next? And should there ever be limits? The slippery slope argument seems to apply nicely to this situation.

 

[DMRick]

And you think those who don't want their scan to be kept would agree to that? You don't think they would be afraid it would be released to the internet? You don't think people would be upset that 'someone' might see them being 'groped' (not my word, but one used often here)? You don't think people would think that is against their rights..that there would be a 'movie' of them?

I don't think that would go over well.

Having a record of each and every pat down would certainly go a long way towards improving transparency and would also work as a good deterrent.

 

[DMRick]

What has been 'next' after the scanning and patdowns?

A long time ago a few of us asked what might be next and should there ever be limits. A few others said at that time that there was no reason to assume that anything would be next and to think otherwise was paranoid. It appears that a lot has come up that was "next" and now once again I ask, what's next? And should there ever be limits? The slippery slope argument seems to apply nicely to this situation.

 

[ccgirl]

And you think those who don't want their scan to be kept would agree to that? You don't think they would be afraid it would be released to the internet? You don't think people would be upset that 'someone' might see them being 'groped' (not my word, but one used often here)? You don't think people would think that is against their rights..that there would be a 'movie' of them?

I don't think that would go over well.

I was thinking the same thing. I am more apt to go thru the scanner where you can't actually see my face than getting videotaped.

 

[Planogirl]

What has been 'next' after the scanning and patdowns?

The 'next' was the scanning and patdowns. I wasn't real clear but this was in the good old days of removing shoes.

As for the new 'next', who knows? That's the point. When is enough enough?

 

[jodifla]

No not at all, but I do want to point out that not EVERYTHING they do is criminal, like you seem to want to paint. So for every vile act you seem to scour the internet to find, I will point out that by and large most TSA agents are doing their jobs humanely, professionally and legally.

So when you want to spread the horror stories, yep I will be here to bring the opposite side of the insanity.

just like EVERY single job in the world there are creeps, they are no more harasssing or intimidating then the Police or Catholic priest or little league baseball Coaches.

So then what's the point of your post? We've established numerous times that there are some abuses occuring, we;ve also established that they need to get rid of the wackadoodles. So basically it's once again meant to portray them as "foaming at the mouth, deranged, psycho-sex crazed" criminals.

Yeah, I plan on bringing it up each and every time.

One note, I edited my post after I saw one of your replies, but looks like you have the original one.

Anyway, no, I don't think TSA are all horrible creeps. There were always scattered reports of a few TSA being jerks.

Now, though, there are hundreds and hundreds of reports in a relatively short period of time. That should certainly be brought up and scrutinized heavily.

Personally, I don't like being touched by strangers. It really, really bothers me. From reading these reports, I think the enhanced pat down would be quite difficult for me to get through.

But as much as I hate the idea for me, what's most troubling for me here are young children and children with disabilities. Children where no amount of "explaining" is going to make it right or make them understand. I'm on several boards with parents of kids with disabilities, and these parents are rightly very worried. What happens when their 14-year-old autistic son won't submit for an enhanced pat down, or strikes the officer in what the child feels is self defense? What happens when the toddler becomes frightened and tries to bolt out the door in a whirling scanner?

These can be poo-pooed by the general public, but for particular families these are extremely troubling questions.

 

[DMRick]

Now, though, there are hundreds and hundreds of reports in a relatively short period of time. That should certainly be brought up and scrutinized heavily.

I'd be curious to know how many reports they got before Nov 1, just on the regular pat down for a comparison.

But as much as I hate the idea for me, what's most troubling for me here are young children and children with disabilities. Children where no amount of "explaining" is going to make it right or make them understand. I'm on several boards with parents of kids with disabilities, and these parents are rightly very worried. What happens when their 14-year-old autistic son won't submit for an enhanced pat down, or strikes the officer in what the child feels is self defense? What happens when the toddler becomes frightened and tries to bolt out the door in a whirling scanner?

I agree that can be a problem. I was behind a child that screamed and lashed out when her mom took off her sneakers. They actually took the entire family aside. I couldn't see what happened but her sneakers ended up on the machine and she looked fine in the waiting area. I do hope they will address these issues. My nephew is autistic and so I will watch that with interest the next time they fly.

 

[TheLists09]

The 'next' was the scanning and patdowns. I wasn't real clear but this was in the good old days of removing shoes.

As for the new 'next', who knows? That's the point. When is enough enough?

I wonder why people think cavity searches are a ridiculous end to where these searches are heading. I don't understand why the people on this thread so in support of increased security for travel wouldn't be willing to do this or think it's such a specious arguement. Don't you want to be 100% safe?

"Taking a trick from the narcotics trade - which has long smuggled drugs in body cavities - Asieri had a pound of high explosives, plus a detonator inserted in his rectum."

"On a plane at altitude, the effects of such a bomb could be catastrophic. And there is no current security system that could stop it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347847.shtml

 

[skater]

LOL,
Philadelphia saw a huge increase in civil rights violations against the Philadelphia police department over the last 3 years. I guess by this analogy we should do away with the cops also (which I actually think might not be a bad idea. If you think the TSA has thugs, never ever come to Philly)
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/109068639.html?cmpid=15585797

I didn't read the link ("slow" speed internet), but if its as bad as you say, that should never be allowed. Thugs should not be in a position of authority, i.e. police, tsa, security, teacher....

 

[skater]

No not at all, but I do want to point out that not EVERYTHING they do is criminal, like you seem to want to paint. So for every vile act you seem to scour the internet to find, I will point out that by and large most TSA agents are doing their jobs humanely, professionally and legally.

So when you want to spread the horror stories, yep I will be here to bring the opposite side of the insanity.

just like EVERY single job in the world there are creeps, they are no more harasssing or intimidating then the Police or Catholic priest or little league baseball Coaches.

So then what's the point of your post? We've established numerous times that there are some abuses occuring, we;ve also established that they need to get rid of the wackadoodles. So basically it's once again meant to portray them as "foaming at the mouth, deranged, psycho-sex crazed" criminals.

Yeah, I plan on bringing it up each and every time.

Its true that there are good and bad guys in every profession (even the tsa ). But there is no excuse and should be zero tolerance for abuse by someone in a position of authority. I hope the tsa will deal with the "bad guys" in a swift manner.

 

[DMRick]

I don't understand why the people on this thread so in support of increased security for travel wouldn't be willing to do this or think it's such a specious arguement. Don't you want to be 100% safe?

I don't understand why you think, just because I am OK with a body scan or pat down, that I would be OK with a cavity search. Are you OK with the scans they have had up until now? If, so why would you not be ok with the new scans or pat downs? What does one being OK, have to do with the other?

For me, the way to be 100% safe when flying is to not fly, and I'm not going to go that route any more than I would a cavity search. Just because I'm fine with the new scan and pat down, doesn't mean I'd be OK with a cavity search. I'll cross that bridge and make a decision based on information I'll have at that time, if it ever came to that. I see a big difference between a fully clothed scan or pat down and a cavity search...don't you? You would refuse a clothed scan or pat down for the same reasons you would refuse a cavity search? You don't see that one is different from the other?

 

[DMRick]

I think we can all agree on this.

Its true that there are good and bad guys in every profession (even the tsa ). But there is no excuse and should be zero tolerance for abuse by someone in a position of authority. I hope the tsa will deal with the "bad guys" in a swift manner.

 

[eliza61]

I didn't read the link ("slow" speed internet), but if its as bad as you say, that should never be allowed. Thugs should not be in a position of authority, i.e. police, tsa, security, teacher....

And that Skater, is my main point. To paint and villify these agents as some how the "worse" people on earth just waiting to rape and molest us is offensive and not true. AND it's the only reason people are doing it. it's ludicrous especially considering that it's believe that most child molestors are known to the child not some random stranger in the airport.

So I always question why some one consistently scours the internet for them, is it to inform or rather to "scare" us? and if it is to generally inform where are the stories of the hundreds of thousands of people who traveled through the scanners yesterday or where patted down who DID NOT get molested or felt up?
Is it really "wanting the true picture" to get out or is it the usual "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality to support our view?

Which in the long run prevents rationale discussion and problem solving and now some of the reports are turning up to be bogus or groups have been going to the airports with the specific intentions of initiating trouble with the airport security.

Just like rogue cops should not be allowed, neither should rogue doctors, tsa agents, teachers, Rabbis or bosses.

So why can't we stop painting them with the same ugly brush?

 

[skater]

And you think those who don't want their scan to be kept would agree to that? You don't think they would be afraid it would be released to the internet? You don't think people would be upset that 'someone' might see them being 'groped' (not my word, but one used often here)? You don't think people would think that is against their rights..that there would be a 'movie' of them?

I don't think that would go over well.

You might be right that it wouldn't go over well, but personally, I would like that. A naked picture being held bothers me, but a record that could be accessed if I felt abused, would protect me and the agent. It also would ensure the agents act in a professional manner, that there would not be "comments" and that the pat downs were not done in a "punitive manner."

 

[CPT Tripss]

No not at all, but I do want to point out that not EVERYTHING they do is criminal, like you seem to want to paint. So for every vile act you seem to scour the internet to find, I will point out that by and large most TSA agents are doing their jobs humanely, professionally and legally.

So when you want to spread the horror stories, yep I will be here to bring the opposite side of the insanity.

just like EVERY single job in the world there are creeps, they are no more harasssing or intimidating then the Police or Catholic priest or little league baseball Coaches.

So then what's the point of your post? We've established numerous times that there are some abuses occuring, we;ve also established that they need to get rid of the wackadoodles. So basically it's once again meant to portray them as "foaming at the mouth, deranged, psycho-sex crazed" criminals.

Yeah, I plan on bringing it up each and every time.

Sure, not everything TSAers do to other people is "criminal." But a lot of it is inappropriate, stupid and/or vindictive. Just how many events of misbehavior ar you willing to tolerate? How many ostemy bag "mishandlings" make it one too many? How many seizures of mother's milk? How many passengers missing their flight because TSAers won't do what their procedures require of them in a reasonable amount of thime?

I'd be curious to know how many reports they got before Nov 1, just on the regular pat down for a comparison.



I agree that can be a problem. I was behind a child that screamed and lashed out when her mom took off her sneakers. They actually took the entire family aside. I couldn't see what happened but her sneakers ended up on the machine and she looked fine in the waiting area. I do hope they will address these issues. My nephew is autistic and so I will watch that with interest the next time they fly.

You will, unfortunately just have to keep waiting for that type of information. TSA just refuses to release such information. he only option is to frequent other sites where flyers discuss thier experiences.

 

[DMRick]

I would put money on it (and I never gamble) that the aclu would be all over this and there would be an uproar. This would have to be held onto, unlike the scans with blurred faces. There would have to be cameras pointed at our private parts from the top, the side and the bottom to 'catch' it all. Our faces would be part of it so we could prove it was us. I think the percentages of those complaining would have to be a lot higher than the single digits.
I think you would do better to have someone take pictures as you get patted down, so you can decide who would see them, if needed. This would not be anonymous like the scans.

You might be right that it wouldn't go over well, but personally, I would like that. A naked picture being held bothers me, but a record that could be accessed if I felt abused, would protect me and the agent. It also would ensure the agents act in a professional manner, that there would not be "comments" and that the pat downs were not done in a "punitive manner."

 

[DMRick]

You will, unfortunately just have to keep waiting for that type of information. TSA just refuses to release such information. he only option is to frequent other sites where flyers discuss thier experiences.

I should have been clearer. I was interested in how many complaints (since that's what the pp was talking about) the aclu had gotten in the past before Nov 1.

I am frequenting other sites where flyers discuss their experiences. That isn't giving me any percents though, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

[skater]

I would put money on it (and I never gamble) that the aclu would be all over this and there would be an uproar. This would have to be held onto, unlike the scans with blurred faces. There would have to be cameras pointed at our private parts from the top, the side and the bottom to 'catch' it all. Our faces would be part of it so we could prove it was us. I think the percentages of those complaining would have to be a lot higher than the single digits.
I think you would do better to have someone take pictures as you get patted down, so you can decide who would see them, if needed. This would not be anonymous like the scans.

You're probably right . I'm hoping this will be a non-issue on my Feb. flight. I'm very hopeful that we're part of the majority who don't have to make the choice between two (what I consider) invasive procedures. If this does happen (especially to my DD), I hope I will be allowed to take pictures or videotape. I think transparancy makes most people behave better .

 

[DMRick]

My son flies on Saturday from NYC, I fly next Tuesday, from Alb which doesn't have the new scanners and we both come back from CA, different airports (different times), I can't wait to see how that goes.

You're probably right . I'm hoping this will be a non-issue on my Feb. flight. I'm very hopeful that we're part of the majority who don't have to make the choice between two (what I consider) invasive procedures. If this does happen (especially to my DD), I hope I will be allowed to take pictures or videotape. I think transparancy makes most people behave better .