TSA mess and the police

[LuvOrlando]

About the whole poll thing, I've thought about it and decided against it not because I don't think numbers are useful but because the sample is too small, biased and easy to manipulate to mean anything. The segment of the population on here are, first off, devoted fans of Disney so many will go no matter what and second, many are children who don't have the decision making power in their families who might vote just because they can. Instead, I'm going to wait for the profit reports of all the publicly traded airlines ect because THOSE numbers are the only ones that are actually valid. Statistical samplings are only valid if they are random, the Dis is not at all random.

Considering the fact that MANY families give travel as a Christmas gift I think a sharp drop in air travel and/or reservations would be irrefutable proof of the issue one way or the other. While polls are interesting following the $ is much more reliable KWIM?

 

[CathrynRose]

So you'd trust a DOG's judgment, but not a human's.


Fascinating.

Here's my take on "I'd rather they had dogs..."

First and foremost - I am not scared of another terrorist taking over a plane. IMO, I don't see it happening, now. Let alone, with explosives.

So, I know I have nothing on me explosive, drugs or otherwise for a dog to catch wind of. I also know that a dog is absolutely there, only doing it's job. The dog has to reason to choose me as a 'random' search, unless the dog genuinely sniffs something out. And then I have to be patted - fine.

If I was copping an attitude, rolling my eyes, even sticking my tongue out, at the dog, I would not be suddenly chosen "randomly".

I personally like the 'no human emotion' aspect of it.

That's why I'd pick the dog.

 

[JLTraveling]

I see my desire not to offend/write too strongly made it seem as if I'm uncertain that these new procedures are harmful. Let me restate:

The con side has listed exhaustively the reasons these procedures are ineffective, harmful, unproven, etc. etc. ad nauseum. We've also noted ways around it -- ostomy bags, etc.

There we go! I do believe it is harmful to many people.

Agreed, flying is not a right, nor is driving, but then we get into (ugh, I hate repeating this phrase, but it's apt) the slippery slope. Is riding a bus a right? Riding a bicycle? Walking? Using the train? Some of them have specific requirements: a license, showing some form of ID, simply having the money to ride, etc. None of them are listed as "rights" in our founding documents, so does that mean they can be taken away if you refuse to abide by increasingly invasive "vetting" procedures?

If I'm driving and am stopped, the police officer has to have just cause to search my vehicle or my person. The fact that I'm driving -- or want to drive -- is not just cause in itself. The fact that OTHER people have used cars to crash into buildings, to run over people, to get away from crime scenes, etc., are not just cause to search ME. There are other ways to check me out that don't require touching me or seeing a scan of me.

I think I'm simply not explaining myself clearly. Anyone wanna help me out?

I see what you're saying, and I agree completely. Let's see if I can help you out with a few bullet points.

1) Terrorists hijacked airplanes on 9/11 and flew them into buildings, killing thousands of people.

2) People have, at various points, used cars in the commission of crimes: carjacking, vehicular homicide, getaway vehicles, etc.

3) The TSA has been charged with maintaining airline safety (in regards to human and cargo threats, not mechanical operations).

4) State, local, county and highway patrol officers have been charged with maintaining vehicular safety (in regards to the use of vehicles in the commission of crimes, not mechanical operations).

All of the above are simple, irrefutable facts. They are not subject to public opinion.

Further facts:

1) State, local, county and highway patrol officers must have probable cause to search drivers or their vehicles. The act of driving, or the intent to drive, does not constitute probable cause.

2) The TSA does not need probable cause to search people or their belongings. The intent to fly constitutes probable cause.

Now the parts that formulate the crux of the debate:

1) Is it reasonable for airline travel to be the sole form of transit that allows personal search without probable cause?

2) Is it reasonable to suggest that ALL forms of travel (train travel, cruising, driving, walking, bicycling, etc.) be subject to the same form of personal search without probable cause?

3) What level of personal search without probable cause is warranted in each instance?

4) How much further can/should personal search without probable cause extend? Entering theme parks? Sporting events? Grocery stores? Movie theaters? Is there a line and, if so, where is it?

 

[emh1129]

Another question I have, do we know if the body scans can see what is in our body cavities? SOme here are wondering how far is to far and wondering about the body cavity checks being next. Body scan = no searching cavities??? I realize this doesn't help the person not wanting the body scan done.

The TSA will not say exactly what the machines can and cannot see, but it says the scanners do reveal all metallic and nonmetallic objects concealed between your clothing and skin. It does not detect items hidden in body cavities. TSA personnel view the image in a remote site.
http://www.npr.org/2010/11/15/131328327/new-airport-security-rules-cause-traveler-discomfort?ps=rs

 

[rie'smom]

My daughter and I are buying sanitary pads and will dampen them with watered down red food coloring. That way if we are chosen for the search, the agent will get a little surprise. Juvenile? absolutely, Necessary? As necessary as being groped.
If you see me on tv, wave.

 

[DMRick]

Glad I'm not flying on this day:

http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/...y-to-protest-airport-security.html?id=6240002

 

[ford family]

My daughter and I are buying sanitary pads and will dampen them with watered down red food coloring. That way if we are chosen for the search, the agent will get a little surprise. Juvenile? absolutely, Necessary? As necessary as being groped.
If you see me on tv, wave.

Does it occur to you that you get out of life what you deserve?

ford family

 

[kaytieeldr]

2) Is it reasonable to suggest that ALL forms of travel (train travel, cruising, driving, walking, bicycling, etc.) be subject to the same form of personal search without probable cause?

Frankly, and given that terrorists have set off bombs at train stations in other countries, it's not unreasonable to suggest that similar or the same forms of detection be incorporated anywhere large groups of people tend to assemble to travel* such as mass transit stations. Bike paths, not so much.

*yes, this could be extended to include 'in general' - such as sports stadiums, concert arenas, theme parks...

 

[ccgirl]

My daughter and I are buying sanitary pads and will dampen them with watered down red food coloring. That way if we are chosen for the search, the agent will get a little surprise. Juvenile? absolutely, Necessary? As necessary as being groped.
If you see me on tv, wave.

To each his own but I'm confused as to the purpose of this. How will the TSA agent even see this?

 

[kaytieeldr]

My daughter and I are buying sanitary pads and will dampen them with watered down red food coloring. That way if we are chosen for the search, the agent will get a little surprise. Juvenile? absolutely, Necessary? As necessary as being groped.
If you see me on tv, wave.

TOO juvenile and immature. To what end? What point would you think you'd be proving? Any TSA Agent forced to pat you down would be doing so with a gloved hand - and to the best of my knowledge, wouldn't be checking inside any maxi-pad.

This is as asinine as the people who think putting some root beer or smeared chocolate on a diaper and hanging it in a clear plastic bag from a stroller handle will deter stroller theft.

 

[JLTraveling]

Frankly, and given that terrorists have set off bombs at train stations in other countries, it's not unreasonable to suggest that similar or the same forms of detection be incorporated anywhere large groups of people tend to assemble to travel* such as mass transit stations. Bike paths, not so much.

*yes, this could be extended to include 'in general' - such as sports stadiums, concert arenas, theme parks...

And would you, personally, be fine with you and your family going through either a full body scanner or an enhanced pat down on your way into a Disney theme park? What about the onsite hotels? What if you just want to pick up a last-minute souvenir at Downtown Disney? Okay to stand in line for the pat down for that too? But wait a minute...don't terrorists also use car bombs? Maybe there should be a checkpoint at the Disney property line: step out and go through the scanner or pat down while the TSA tears your car apart. Well, it would cut down on traffic on Disney property, since those of us who use it as a cut-through would take alternate routes.

See where I'm going with this? It's not all cut and dried. Where do you draw the line?

 

[sbell111]

... And I beg to differ on the speaking softly and sweetly. I don't expect them to be all mushy gushy. However, some of these TSA agents hide behind the badge and act like the flying public needs to quake and quiver every time TSA even looks at them. It has nothing to do with the English language either. He clearly understood and spoke English as did most of the people waiting in line and all wondered why he was yelling.

He was speaking loudly because he was trying to communicate the message to all the people in line so that they would be prepared for what needed to be done and, therefore, the line would move quicker for everyone.

 

[JLTraveling]

He was speaking loudly because he was trying to communicate the message to all the people in line so that they would be prepared for what needed to be done and, therefore, the line would move quicker for everyone.

Would you tolerate a Disney cast member speaking and behaving in the same way? They're also trying to herd large groups of people into following instructions and keeping the line moving. How come we expect CMs to have plenty of time and energy for pixie dust and magical moments, but we're cool with the TSA barking orders and making demands?

 

[rie'smom]

Does it occur to you that you get out of life what you deserve?

ford family

Yes, it does and so far so it's been excellent.

 

[kaytieeldr]

See where I'm going with this? It's not all cut and dried. Where do you draw the line?

I really couldn't say. We're not even close to my line. Much of what you describe is extreme. Most commercial airports are operated by the government. I can guarantee Logan is. Walt Disney World is owned and operated by Disney. It would be their choice whether and what form of security to employ.

I'll tell you, though. I feel safer in my favorite hotel in Las Vegas than in any WDW hotel - not because I'm afraid someone will blow up something, but simply because there's a guard checking room keys before you're allowed near the elevators at the former.

 

[sbell111]

The weird thing about this thread is that the people who are pro new searches try to come off all tough but the truth is they are frightened out of their minds over the idea of being faced with what the men and women in the armed forces deal with every day. They are so paralyzed with this fear that they are attacking anyone and anything that threatens to tug away the thin apron they believe is shielding them from the real world and they embrace any promise of protection without question.

For a long time we were all terrified but now things seem to be changing. I know I've changed but I don't think I knew it until these new search methods were rolled out. Now with 2011 in front of me I'm just not afraid any more... at least not the way I was and it's a bit of a surprise. I think what's going on is there is a segment of the population who is now ready to stop running in retreat. Some seem ready to face the enemy head on and stand and fight if it ever came to that (on the street, in an airplane, wherever) and those who are still running at all costs are trying to drag the rest of us with them because they view us as a threat.

Here is how I see it. There are men and woman away at war fighting to protect me & mine and I think about that every day. The least I can do is make sure the US is the same place it was when they left when they get back. It's ok with me that lots of other people are still running in fear, I'm not trying to convince them, I'm not going to attack them or put them down but neither can I join them. The animals who hurt us all 9/11 have taken enough from me, they don't get my body and kids too.

As someone who believes that these security checks are important and necessary AND has served in our military, not only do I believe that you have no idea what it is like to serve in the military, I must also state that you have no idea what motivates me. Further, I believe that we must all come to grips with the fact tht the world has changed. Living like it is still the nineties will only guarantee that there is future successful attacks. It is certainly no way to attain safety for our families.

 

[Minnie]

Hi all -

As promised a quick review of the current situation:

1st - this was from a non-international airport

--> No obvious changes to the old security. The one person pulled out for a "personal check" was simply wanded not patted down.

Hoping my flight home out of MCO remains as painless as this was

 

[Jennasis]

My daughter and I are buying sanitary pads and will dampen them with watered down red food coloring. That way if we are chosen for the search, the agent will get a little surprise. Juvenile? absolutely, Necessary? As necessary as being groped.
If you see me on tv, wave.

Ketchup would work better, BUT...

Since they aren't sticking their hands up into your Hoo-ha, how would a fake wet pad DO anything?? Plenty of women who are actually menstruating will be patted down with no consequence to them or the agent doing the pat down.

HOWEVER, I wonder what might happen if it was discovered that you were deliberately doing something to foil/offend a TSA officer? i bet they'd find something to charge you with.

Juvenile. Pointless. Ultimately likely to make your situation much much worse. good luck with it.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

As someone who believes that these security checks are important and necessary AND has served in our military, not only do I believe that you have no idea what it is like to serve in the military, I must also state that you have no idea what motivates me. Further, I believe that we must all come to grips with the fact tht the world has changed. Living like it is still the nineties will only guarantee that there is future successful attacks. It is certainly no way to attain safety for our families.

Bravo!
I bow to you!

 

[sbell111]

I agree.

I do enjoy reading different perspectives. I "try" to skim over the insensitive wording to get to some substance. But by then, the poster has already diminished his/her point, to me. If a person has to resort to that stuff, it makes their argument weak.

That's exactly how I feel about many of the 'anti' posts, such as the OP.