Trusting Someone

[luvsJack]

OP, I'm going to be a bit blunt here. You have been enabling this relationship, to your daughter's detriment. She's 19, and she dropped out of college and is playing house with the first guy who has seriously looked at her. And you're sitting there, promising to pay for her wedding???

You understandably have misgivings about the young man. But what you need to be doing is encouraging your DD to grow up and make better choices--not just about the guy, but about her life. If you are subsidizing her lifestyle in any way, it needs to stop. I wouldn't pay a dime for a wedding--your DD isn't ready to be married. It's a lifetime commitment, and she's playing house and planning a fancy party.

OTOH, you need to provide all the emotional support that you can. When this situation goes south--and it will--your DD will need her family to help her get back on track. But you are doing her no favors by subsidizing her bad choices.

The only thing I would be buying for her is birth control. because the absolute worst thing that could happen is that she makes a baby with this guy.

She hasn’t dropped out of college. She graduates with her AA in May and the way it’s going she will graduate with honors She is going to school full time and working on her certifications to be a personal trainer. No one has to pay for anything for college. She has scholarships to pay for all of that.

We were not asked if she could move in with him, we were told. We weren’t really supporting her at the time and she is over 18. And she seemed to have it together.

We were happy for her and the bf in the beginning. Actually when he proposed, we were told that the plan was for it to be a long engagement. Keep in mind, as it stands now the date is a few months past her 20th birthday. Any putting it off to 21 is going to be a few months not years. At the most we are talking 6 months.

I didn’t plan the wedding dress outing. She did. She had it all put together before I knew anything about it.

I don’t subsidize anything. He works and supports them. She was working until the job ended in December. We do pay her car insurance and she knows that is just until she graduates. But the two of them pay for everything else. Originally we told her that we would pay for gas to get to school if they needed the help but we haven’t needed to. She has her own account and is on his account with him. They seem to be doing fine. We have put money in her account here and there without her knowledge. I will not even consider her being there without the ability to get home. She doesn’t use her account much so I doubt she knows the money is there.

We have told them that we aren’t prepared to pay for a wedding due to some financial obligations and dh’s work being really down the last few months. And that we aren’t sure when we will. That discussion is why she wanted to look at stuff Sunday to know what stuff really costs. That’s what we were doing. The conversation about the preacher came up because she asked if we had mentioned it to her uncles, which we have not.

I talk to her every day usually two or three times a day. Both of her brothers talk to her everyday and so does my dil. She knows she has all the support in the world.


We are trying very hard not to make it seem that her family is against this marriage while his family is very much for it. No Romeo and Juliet mentality. OTOH, not letting wedding take over all our conversations either.

 

[mom2rtk]

She hasn’t dropped out of college. She graduates with her AA in May and the way it’s going she will graduate with honors She is going to school full time and working on her certifications to be a personal trainer. No one has to pay for anything for college. She has scholarships to pay for all of that.

We were not asked if she could move in with him, we were told. We weren’t really supporting her at the time and she is over 18. And she seemed to have it together.

We were happy for her and the bf in the beginning. Actually when he proposed, we were told that the plan was for it to be a long engagement. Keep in mind, as it stands now the date is a few months past her 20th birthday. Any putting it off to 21 is going to be a few months not years. At the most we are talking 6 months.

I didn’t plan the wedding dress outing. She did. She had it all put together before I knew anything about it.

I don’t subsidize anything. He works and supports them. She was working until the job ended in December. We do pay her car insurance and she knows that is just until she graduates. But the two of them pay for everything else. Originally we told her that we would pay for gas to get to school if they needed the help but we haven’t needed to. She has her own account and is on his account with him. They seem to be doing fine. We have put money in her account here and there without her knowledge. I will not even consider her being there without the ability to get home. She doesn’t use her account much so I doubt she knows the money is there.

We have told them that we aren’t prepared to pay for a wedding due to some financial obligations and dh’s work being really down the last few months. And that we aren’t sure when we will. That discussion is why she wanted to look at stuff Sunday to know what stuff really costs. That’s what we were doing. The conversation about the preacher came up because she asked if we had mentioned it to her uncles, which we have not.

I talk to her every day usually two or three times a day. Both of her brothers talk to her everyday and so does my dil. She knows she has all the support in the world.


We are trying very hard not to make it seem that her family is against this marriage while his family is very much for it. No Romeo and Juliet mentality. OTOH, not letting wedding take over all our conversations either.

I have no doubt it's a hard balance to achieve between not wanting to support the wedding and trying not to alienate her.

I honestly don't know how I would handle it. It scares the crap out of me that she's only 2 years older than my own daughter.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Thanks so much for the additional info.
That is helpful!!!!

I do see that you are having to walk a fine-line about a possible wedding.
And, yes, she is an adult.

I am SO glad to hear that she will be graduating.
But, I would not be surprized, at all, to hear that this guy is using the possible wedding.... moving that up... or ANY other tool he has in his narcissistic controlling (possibly abusive) arsenal in order to keep her from graduating right away.

OP, the whole 'I will support you..." "We will have a long engagement...' etc... etc... etc...
These are ALL, once again, textbook classic modes of operation....
It puts him TOTALLY in control.
We have already seen the issue of gas money come up.
This starts with little things... deceptions like 'long engagement'....
Then, as another wise poster mentioned... that pretty illusion that was created is really all deception. Smoke and mirrors....

While I am not going to be as judgmental and negative as the one previous poster.
Because that helps nobody here!
I will say this.

If she is not working, and has no income....
That is HUGE....

You need to enable your daughter.
NOT enable that relationship.
Which IS what you have done.

I would set up a joint account somewhere, and make sure she has a card of her own, so that she has gas money, money for personal necessities, and for her well being.
No young woman needs to depend on a guy like this DBF for these things.
Or, if you are afraid that he would know about the card, and that could really cost her dearly.... I would make sure I see her OFTEN.... and slip her cash.
I would already have not just offered... but pushed, to go fill up her car every week.
Phones are often the next thing to come up....
He can use her phone to monitor everything....
I would be aware that, IF IT COMES TO IT.... IF..... your DD should have her own phone, separate and paid for....

That is how I would be supporting my DD.
Not putting money towards a wedding.

I realize that the whole wedding dress thing kind of started before, and had a life of it's own.
I do understand that.
But, you need to see that this is a part of the problem, and was a mistake.

You really need to think objectively here.
Which I am afraid that you are not....
I am not sure that you are, based on the title of this thread... Should YOU trust him...
You seem to be heavily 'vested' involved in this relationship, before you ever began to question things....
Before you ever posted here.
You were happy to let her move in with a guy, and be totally dependent on him....

I am not meaning to be harsh...
And, I am so sorry that it probably sounds that way.
I am just one who seems to just openly state the obvious.

I am hoping that this thread is helpful for you to shed additional light on the situation, and how might be best as you deal with it moving forward.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hey, an idea now crosses my mind.
Instead of coming off as TOO against the wedding...
Or, using the age 21 card.
How about this....

You really feel better about the wedding, after she graduates and is settled into a new job, in her field.
Hhhhmmm????

 

[Sydney2977]

First I'd like to say I am sorry you and your family are having to go through this, and will pray everything works out for the best.

As a woman who got married myself at 19, but have been married for 21 years, I will say your daughter is not necessarily too "young" to get married, but maybe too naïve, inexperienced, etc., and not being with the right guy for her will make being married even harder.

DH and I got pregnant at 17/18 (not planned) but still didn't get married until DS was 6 months old. We wanted to live together, make sure he was taken care of, and that we were making the best decision for all of us. There was no pressure from either of us or our families. The idea that A wants to rush your DD makes me question his motives. DH has never tried to keep me from any friends or family. If he doesn't like someone personally, he grins and bears it when he has to be around them (my cousin's husband come to mind), or chooses not to be (the wife of one of his friends that I am friends with)- same for me with him. It sounds like A is pitting your DD against anyone who may be on "her side" and making her be more dependent on him emotionally.

As a mom of 2 boys (21 & 17) who both have lovely girlfriends (dating 5 years and almost 2 years) I can't imagine encouraging them to get married before their gf's finished college. Friends and family have even asked us "So do you think DS1 and GF are going to get married?" I'm like "Hello- they're both still finishing college! That needs to be their focus!" I also can't imagine calling either of their parents to defend them about anything. If they don't like my boys for any reason, that's for the boys to work on, not me. It sounds like his mom is enabling her son to be the controlling one and even manipulating the situation herself. Does he have a degree or certificate that has him in a well established job? Maybe he is jealous and doesn't want DD to be more educated or successful than him, thus her having to depend on him financially.

Just like other pp's have said, be there for her as a mom, and stress that you love her and will be there for her no matter what. Unfortunately, sometimes people have to learn the hard way, though that's tough to stomach as a parent.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Hey, an idea now crosses my mind.
Instead of coming off as TOO against the wedding...
Or, using the age 21 card.
How about this....

You really feel better about the wedding, after she graduates and is settled into a new job, in her field.
Hhhhmmm????

This makes a ton of sense to me. The wedding should come AFTER graduation. If she's working and going to school, she has enough to focus on. Personally, I think she's in an immature relationship that won't last, but of course, you couldn't say that to her. But, tying wedding funds to specific, adult achievements makes good sense. You could even point out that, once she's graduated and in her career, she'll be able to kick in for the wedding, as well, and maybe have something nicer than her parents could swing. Or afford a nicer honeymoon.

 

[Wishing on a star]

If she is graduating in May, then that is soon....
But, maybe the approach would be focusing on that, then becoming established with some dependable income...
THEN, talk wedding...

Like, one thing at a time...

 

[Disneybuckeye]

This whole situation sounds scary to me and I wish you well OP.

I am bothered by the whole financial picture you have painted. I know lots of people on the DIS are fans of off to college support yourself, but that was not something of which I am a big fan and may be helping to exacerbate this situation. To me it sounds like other than her scholarships, this guy is proving most if not all of her financial support. That may make her feel very dependent on him and gives him a lot of control over her.

Maybe I am reading this way wrong, and she might have lots of money saved up and is able to contribute financially, but if not, I would work with her to find a way to be able to support herself so he cannot dictate what she does or where she goes.

 

[gotomu212]

Just to update a little: Dd and I had a day together today. We talked a lot at lunch and I told her to remember that we are always there and never to hesitate to call us or one of her brothers. We did talk about why people say he is controlling (she brought it up). She still doesn’t see it but a lot of what she told me about his past could explain his actions. But I still worry that he is using the stories of his past to make her feel sorry for him.

When we got back to their house he was getting ready for work. She and I were looking at wedding stuff (still putting it off but looking at the prices of things so I have numbers). He was so negative. He kept saying we could do it for so much cheaper and we should let his mom figure it out. And that dd could have everything she wants but cheaper.

3 times now either he or his mom have tried to change things.

Dd originally wanted a beach wedding. He doesn’t want the beach. Ok fine. So Dd and he together agreed on a fairytale themed wedding. She wants night with lots of twinkling lights His mom tried to shoot that down. But I spoke up for dd and said, it will be night if she wants night.

And the last just about made me go off on him. Dd has two uncles that are preachers. The first wedding decision she made was that both of her uncles would take part in the ceremony. We were on the phone with Dd and teasing her a little about them having to meet with both of her uncles. He immediately started saying he has a preacher he wants. He has known this was important to her from day one! I was furious! Didn’t say anything but was so very mad. It would be different if he had a church he went to and a preacher he was close to. Not the case at all. The only church he has attended doesn’t exist anymore and the building is for sale.

Anyway, back to today, he made some crack about “oh, I am not supposed to say anything about all this”. I just looked at him. Then Dd asked him about venues closer to where we live (about an hour away from them) and he said “well we can to make it easier for your family but none of my friends will come that far”. And of course that made Dd feel bad.

Right before I left, two of his/their friends came over and they acted very unfriendly towards me which is very unusual for these particular people. So no clue what that was about.

He now says he has no problems with ds, but when Dd mentioned her brother, he sulled up and wouldn’t talk.

I don’t know. On one hand I feel like maybe I have started being too hard on him and reading too much into everything. OTOH, I feel like I am seeing the real him. I just know that I didn’t like him very much today and in the past I never left after spending time with them feeling as negative about him as I do now.

I still think he sounds like a loser, but something you said here struck me as weird. You said he’d tried to change wedding things three times already, but he’s the groom. It’s his wedding too. So why is it wrong for him to say he doesn’t want a beach wedding or that a venue is too far for his guests? We never would have gotten married at a venue my husband didn’t like or with a minister we didn’t both agree on, and I would have felt bad if we made It harder for his friends to attend. It would have caused major tension in our relationship if my husband thought that he didn’t get a say in his own wedding.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I think that any insinuation that the OP has concerns here because the groom wants some amount of say in the wedding is totally unfounded.
The writing is on the wall here.

He was so negative. He kept saying we could do it for so much cheaper and we should let his mom figure it out. And that dd could have everything she wants but cheaper.

Sorry, but SUPPOSEDLY, they are not seriously talking wedding yet.
( I do not think that is is true at all, just to be honest)
And already he has a negative reaction to most all of the DD's wishes, and wants HIS MOM to handle ( CONTROL ) the wedding.

Really....
Really!!!!!!!

This is so 'off' that there are no words....

He promises "She can everything she wants" (ummm, YEAH RIGHT... not based on his current negative comments and actions....) "if she lets HIS MOM handle it."

Any promises or negativity or manipulations, at all, to come between the DD and her family. Including the mom/OP as the mother of the bride.

This situation is SCARY, 'off'.

And, this guy seems to have a pattern of running to his mommie dearest (who likes to threaten to get even and 'hurt' people) whenever he, or she, does not get their way.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Continuing the above, with some personal comments....
Posting here, as an upcoming Mother of the Groom (one day soon, anyhow......)
There is absolutely NO way that I would have any expectation having anything but the brides wishes coming first... As long as there is due respect for the groom's (my son's) wishes...

I would absolutely LOVE the idea of my son having a beach wedding....
Beach vacations at our favorite beautiful spot have been a part of our family.
One time, when DS was fairly young, we vacationed and visited the Grand Canyon.
Even a boy at that age, which is surprising, DS mentioned that it would be cool to get married there one day.

Guess what.... I could see his girlfriend wanting a local 'BARN' country-chic wedding.
My first reaction would be
But, guess what, if my son was actually cool with that, and that is what he wanted too, for the two of them, and to make his bride happy....
So be it....
Not my place to make any big controlling decisions.

 

[luvsJack]

I still think he sounds like a loser, but something you said here struck me as weird. You said he’d tried to change wedding things three times already, but he’s the groom. It’s his wedding too. So why is it wrong for him to say he doesn’t want a beach wedding or that a venue is too far for his guests? We never would have gotten married at a venue my husband didn’t like or with a minister we didn’t both agree on, and I would have felt bad if we made It harder for his friends to attend. It would have caused major tension in our relationship if my husband thought that he didn’t get a say in his own wedding.

its not bad for him to want to change the venue. They agreed together on a different kind of wedding. Makes it easier anyway then trying to get everything lined up and everyone to the beach.

The preacher, that was something she said on day one. She wants her uncles to do it, its just important to her. He doesn't know any ministers. That was my point. He doesn't have someone he wants to use, he just doesn't want to meet with her uncle. Like I said, it would be totally different if there was someone important to him. There isn't.

They are an hour away from us and her entire family. The guest list (well those who would be invited to just have a rough count) would be about 200. 150 of those are her family and friends. That's not us limiting him on invites. That's just a rough list of who they each would want to invite. She has a huge family. He has a small family. Her family all lives here. His family would be coming from out of state. There is no guarantee that his friends that are not in the wedding would come regardless of where it is. Why would you pick a venue that is hard on 75% of those invited? Besides a venue has not been chosen so it may end up being where they are, or up here or somewhere in between or somewhere in an opposite direction of both.

The change his mother tried to make was about the time. DD wants a night wedding. His mom told her to rethink that because it would go into the time they have for the reception. Sorry, but a 5 hour reception is really not necessary. And dd wants it at night, outside and lots of twinkly lights.

 

[luvsJack]

Ok, let me explain the whole financial thing a bit better. I don't want to be unfair to him.

From the time she moved in with him, she had a job. Her check, her money. We pay her car insurance. Once a semester she gets a refund check from school. It is her's to use how she needs. She pays her phone bill but its on our account so its not going anywhere.

He works and has from day one.

Until recently, they had separate accounts. She paid for things she needed and her gas to go to school and whatever else. He paid the rent, utilities, groceries, etc. The account together just came about in the last month. She still has her account that we do put money in and her refund will go into it.

She hasn't really depended on him for money. She has always paid for what she needed and wanted. As far as I know, he hasn't said anything to her about what she spends or doesn't spend.

The comment about him telling her she didn't have gas money to come see us. He did do that, several times. He would make her feel guilty about spending the money for gas out of her account to come see us. As far as I know, that is the only thing financially he has ever seemed controlling about which is why it struck me so hard.

Its also hard to judge this relationship because she is so independent.


Oh, and the putting off the wedding until she graduates and has a job would be great except she will graduate in May and pretty much has a job lined up if this internship goes through. So, we are right back where we started.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Thanks for more info!!!

It is good that she hasn't been totally dependent on him.

And, you really do have a fine line to walk in a VERY sticky situation!!!!

I am so glad to hear that you and the rest of your family are making an effort to stay in close, frequent, contact...
That is def. the way to go!!!!

Maybe plan some ongoing 'family things'!!!

 

[gotomu212]

its not bad for him to want to change the venue. They agreed together on a different kind of wedding. Makes it easier anyway then trying to get everything lined up and everyone to the beach.

The preacher, that was something she said on day one. She wants her uncles to do it, its just important to her. He doesn't know any ministers. That was my point. He doesn't have someone he wants to use, he just doesn't want to meet with her uncle. Like I said, it would be totally different if there was someone important to him. There isn't.

They are an hour away from us and her entire family. The guest list (well those who would be invited to just have a rough count) would be about 200. 150 of those are her family and friends. That's not us limiting him on invites. That's just a rough list of who they each would want to invite. She has a huge family. He has a small family. Her family all lives here. His family would be coming from out of state. There is no guarantee that his friends that are not in the wedding would come regardless of where it is. Why would you pick a venue that is hard on 75% of those invited? Besides a venue has not been chosen so it may end up being where they are, or up here or somewhere in between or somewhere in an opposite direction of both.

The change his mother tried to make was about the time. DD wants a night wedding. His mom told her to rethink that because it would go into the time they have for the reception. Sorry, but a 5 hour reception is really not necessary. And dd wants it at night, outside and lots of twinkly lights.

I’m just trying to show you the other side of the coin because you seem to think he’s totally out of line on some things that I think are reasonable.
-her uncle the preacher: I personally would have felt uncomfortable with my husband’s family presiding over our wedding. In our case it involved a few sessions of premarital counseling and I wouldn’t have felt comfortable talking about private person relationship issues with Uncle Bob, the guy I’d see at the family reunion every year.
-having a night wedding: depends on the time of year. A 7 pm or later wedding would be too late for me, and a 5 hour reception is the norm around here. Dinner, dancing, and celebrating usually goes from 7-12 with the older folks leaving around 10:30. Why is suggesting she rethink the idea so egregious?
-The location- look at the other side of it. If I was only getting 25% of the guests it would be important to me that it was somewhere that they could come. My husband has a very small family, it was important to me to find ways to accommodate his guests because I didn’t want him to feel like a stranger at his own wedding.
-suggesting that things be cheaper: that was my husband’s (and my own mothers) refrain throughout the entire planning process. Saying let’s not bankrupt ourselves, and your parents, is really reasonable.

You seem so dug in that you are finding fault with everything and that’s where you get into trouble because it makes you look like the unreasonable one to your daughter.

 

[Dentam]

.

 

[gotomu212]

She paid for things she needed and her gas to go to school and whatever else. He paid the rent, utilities, groceries, etc. The account together just came about in the last month.

She hasn't really depended on him for money. She has always paid for what she needed and wanted.

Im sorry I really am not intentionally picking on you, but I’m so confused by your comments.

He pays for rent, utilities, and her food but you say she hasn’t depended on him for money? Rent, utilities, and food means he’s basically supporting her completely. If she’s not paying 50% of these basic living expenses I would say she’s absolutely dependent on him.

 

[handinpocket]

Im sorry I really am not intentionally picking on you, but I’m so confused by your comments.

He pays for rent, utilities, and her food but you say she hasn’t depended on him for money? Rent, utilities, and food means he’s basically supporting her completely. If she’s not paying 50% of these basic living expenses I would say she’s absolutely dependent on him.

Indeed. If she is getting a "refund" from the college - that is most likely from state funded Pell Grants, not a scholarship. It certainly can't be enough to support them for long.

 

[mousehockey37]

Oh Lordy, I am making a mess of this secret stuff.

Ok it is my daughter and her fiancé who she lives with. I was contacted by someone who never said he cheated but that the whole time they have been together, he has been trying to get back with his ex. That is the part I didn’t need an answer on.

We talked to them together. We never talked to him alone. He is mad that we didn’t just talk to dd. But funny enough, the last time we wanted to see dd alone to talk about school and what was going on at the time, he almost had a panic attack. Waited until they weren’t together and called and told her she needed to move home so he wouldn’t be blamed for messing up her education-which wasn’t even close to what we were wanting to talk to her about. Had her just about hysterical. When we have gone down to see her when he is working nights, he wants it to be that we meet him to go eat on his lunch hour.

His ex claims he was mentally abusive part of which was cutting her off from her friends and family. While dd has not been cut off from any of us, we have seen some behavior we questioned. And what the ex related seemed to fill in those answers. For instance, he had to work Christmas Eve. She was coming to her grandmother’s. He got mad because she was leaving an hour before he went to work to get there. She left crying because he made her feel guilty. Other times he has made her feel like she couldn’t spend the gas money to come see us. We agree to put gas in her car and he backs off.

Since we basically have to go to her, it would have been impossible to see her without him.

We really don’t care if he was talking to his ex. That is for dd to decide if she trusts him or if it is true.

And both of them said immediately that they knew this was being claimed( that he was talking to his ex) Ok, no problem. Everything is good. And then he wanted to know why we believed the person telling me over him. I told him we didn’t. But some other things that were said had us concerned and we felt it necessary to talk to them. That is when he went out and called his mom, cane back in and went to the bedroom and wouldn’t come out. I never had a chance to say anything else.

We do care if he is abusive in any way.
I did talk to Dd alone about it the next day.

Just a few months ago we really liked this guy. Thought he was great for dd. Truly felt this relationship was great. And then other stuff started going on. She had a friend that both she and ds were very close to. Well the fiancé decided he doesn’t like the friend for one reason or another and they are no longer friends. We haven’t said anything one way or the other about it. Ds has questioned it as he is still friends with the guy but I told him he had to ask dd.

Now the fiancé has decided he doesn’t like Ds. But when asked why, he doesn’t actually have an answer. I think the last one that was given was he is disrespectful. How? “It’s not worth explaing”. ????? So far dd’s answer has been “well he is my brother so get over it”.

The problem with not dealing with this,imo, is it’s not going away. This proof has been offered to several people, ds included. Dd and her bf, do not have anything to do with the people who have this “proof” but they do hang out with and are friends with a lot of the same people. (His decision that he doesn’t like ds seems to coincide with finding out ds has been offered the proof although Ds has not seen it and said specifically he didn’t want to see it).

And according to dd, his mom is going to handle it by getting revenge and hurting them like they hurt her son. Ok, not something I want dd to be a part of.

I spent part of yesterday with both of them. He doesn’t act mad in any way but keeps making jokes about cheating. And making cracks toward ds. But I have been told that none of this can be discussed as it will cause a panic attack.

Part of our issue with dealing with this is we have sort of been down this road before. When ds married the first time we had some strong suspicions about the girl. We actually saw her with some guys when ds was out of town one night. Ds would not see it or hear it. They got married. 5 years later, his whole word got torn out from under him.

The decision is whether to sign for her to get married. She can’t marry in this state until she is 21. That will put the wedding off another year which is what we have decided to do.

If the fiance can't answer questions, then he can't marry her. End of story. If he had to run, hide and call mommy for help, that's a bad sign. Get your daughter home and away from him. He's hiding something, or a lot of somethings. I don't like the sounds of it or where it's headed if this continues on.

 

[Action City]

If the fiance can't answer questions, then he can't marry her. End of story. If he had to run, hide and call mommy for help, that's a bad sign. Get your daughter home and away from him. He's hiding something, or a lot of somethings. I don't like the sounds of it or where it's headed if this continues on.

That isn’t the OP’s decision to make. In another year, her daughter is free to marry whomever she wishes.