To tip or not to tip

[garyyeo]

Hi guys,

I just finished my tour of California (LA, San Francisco and Las Vegas)

What had me thinking was if the current system in USA where gratitude is shown in the form of voluntary tips is the best way to go forward.

I come from Singapore and a 15% service charge is imposed in all restaurants and taxi drivers never hound you or expect any forms of tips. Absolutely no one in the service industry expects any forms of tips and it is treated as a privilege, not an entitlement. Tips are only given when service is outstanding.

In the USA however I noticed, especially for service industries like Tour Buses, Taxis and Restaurants, while no service charge is imposed by the company, tips are very much encouraged and are kept by whoever is serving you. I understand the rational for this as it keeps service staff driven and on their toes by giving them greater sense of pride for what they do and direct monetary reward for the good service that they provide.

But is this the best way to go forward? Companies like Disney have been providing outstanding service without it. Can you imagine if the boat guy on the Jungle cruise asks you for a tip after the ride? It will absolutely ruin your day. Sure you still tip at the restaurants but you are never reminded to do so.

I went on a Grand Canyon Tour and not only was the bus late, it also broke down and we were stranded for 2 whole hours in the middle of no where. The rest of the tour was average but our whole experience was spoilt. To the end of the tour, he spent a whole 5 minutes explaining to us how tips are important to the industry. There was a huge sign in the middle of the bus reading "15% tips are very much appreciated for a job well done" Then as he dropped us off he had a hat which he used to collect tips from each family, counting each tip and empting his hat before he went on to the next family.

I took another tour with a smaller friendlier company and they never mentioned it at all and I gladly gave an appropriate amount at the end of the tour as he helped us with our luggage.

Should a tip compulsory? If it should then why is it not just added into the advertised price to start with?

If it is truly a tip or a token of gratitude then it should not be miserly or a violation of etiquette when none is given.

An extract from Wikipedia:
"Some customers do not like the custom of tipping, as they believe that it is an attempt by employers to shift the burden of paying employee wages onto the customer. Many consider the custom to be antiquated, adding an unnecessary level of complication for the customer. As some businesses advertise the fact that their employees work for tips, some people believe this is a ploy to encourage customers to leave tips by making them feel remorse for a server's financial hardship."

I have even had people who have refused to serve me at restaurants just because they were not “my” servers. I thought good service was a team effort.

To me good service should be about hiring the right people, good corporate culture and training, not how much you tip.

Thoughts please!

 

[bicker]

The reality of service in the United States is that patrons are expected to provide gratuities to cover much of the cost of service. Nothing will change that except governmental action, which is not forthcoming.

 

[mjkacmom]

I guess I'm just used to our tip culture, and have no problem tipping those who work in an industry that pays less, knowing that employees will be tipped. I've worked for $2.01 an hour, and although most people tip accordingly, I found that those from other countries/cultures were the ones who stiffed me.

 

[CajunDixie]

I don't mind tipping for good service but I won't tip when the waitperson has a crappy attitude, gets my order wrong (not just the kitchen's fault...the waitperson wrote the order, they should be able to read it and check it against what they are serving), or when they do a disappearing act. Disappearing act as in not serving other tables and not at a time that a restaurant would allow their break. Sometimes I'll leave just a penny so they get the idea that I didn't forget the tip, I was just not happy with the lack of service.

And you can flame away about how they don't make minimum wage...I know that! And it's not my fault they don't. The employer sets the pay scale based on how much in tips they "should" be bringing into their pockets. A good restaurant owner knows average tip amounts and an average of how much business they'll have on any given night.

 

[SarahDISer]

I come from a country where tipping is just not the done thing, in fact, it is almost offensive. When I was a teenager I had a part-time job as a waitress and an American couple left me a $2 tip. I recall feeling so belittled and degraded even though I knew that wasn't their intention.

Whenever I am in the States I really struggle with the humiliation of tipping.

I do it because I have to but I would much rather staff wages were already included in the overall cost. It would be much more civilized.

There is no dignity in the tipping set-up. I find having to hand someone a couple of dollars as though they are some sort of peasant absolutely cringe worthy.

Besides, who carries around cash these days anyway

 

[garyyeo]

A customer's experience at the resturant is also affected by the quality of the food, the speediness of service, ambience of the location, many factors which also affect the amount of tips given but these are also factors which are out of the control of the servers, who recieve the tips. So how is this affective? Kitchen messes up an order, burns the meat, the waiter suffers?

Also it is just wierd, that a tip is something that should be given, but is not included in the bill, but is also technically not compulsory to be given, and if you do not give it you are an stingy. I say put the service tax into the bill, and if the service is outstanding, give an additional tip.

That way we actually feel good tipping the guy, rather than tipping for the sake of tipping.

 

[bicker]

The gratuity is to cover the cost of service provided by the server. The food is covered by the menu price. Kitchen mistakes, unless obvious to the eye (of the server), are not to be accounted for in the gratuity.

 

[declansdad]

The gratuity is to cover the cost of service provided by the server. The food is covered by the menu price. Kitchen mistakes, unless obvious to the eye (of the server), are not to be accounted for in the gratuity.

I don't employ the server so I shouldn't be responsible for the cost through a tip. A tip is suppose to show appreciation and should never be expected.

 

[bicker]

I don't employ the server so I shouldn't be responsible for the cost through a tip.

While we can discuss whether or not patrons should or shouldn't be responsible, my point was about the reality that patrons are responsible. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

What is interesting are the frequent discussions about tipping of housekeepers. There, the reality is that housekeepers are non-tipped personnel, yet there are still folks contending that guests are expected to provide a gratuity. These two on-going discussions are paradoxical to me. (PM me if you want a link to a current housekeeper gratuity discussion.)

 

[declansdad]

While we can discuss whether or not patrons should or shouldn't be responsible, my point was about the reality that patrons are responsible. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

What is interesting are the frequent discussions about tipping of housekeepers. There, the reality is that housekeepers are non-tipped personnel, yet there are still folks contending that guests are expected to provide a gratuity. These two on-going discussions are paradoxical to me. (PM me if you want a link to a current housekeeper gratuity discussion.)

Please show me something that says customers are responsible for paying the servers?

 

[bicker]

Maybe responsible is too strong a word. Let's say "expected" or "obligated" instead. The obligation is implicit (not explicit, so don't expect to see it written down -- not everything in life is written down). You can see the evidence of this obligation reflected in DHS regulations that recognize a different minimum wage applicable to such workers, based solely on that expectation that patrons will tip, and on IRS regulations that recognize that and impose a minimum tip rate that servers will be taxed.

I'll PM you the link to that other thread, about tipping housekeepers, so you can put your perspective in there.

 

[declansdad]

Maybe responsible is too strong a word. Let's say "expected" or "obligated" instead. The obligation is implicit (not explicit, so don't expect to see it written down -- not everything in life is written down). You can see the evidence of this obligation reflected in DHS regulations that recognize a different minimum wage applicable to such workers, based solely on that expectation that patrons will tip, and on IRS regulations that recognize that and impose a minimum tip rate that servers will be taxed.

I'll PM you the link to that other thread, about tipping housekeepers, so you can put your perspective in there.

This implicit obligation is the problem with tipping. Tipping is a show of gratitude or appreciation for a job well done. The fact that some people expect it and give less than acceptable performance when not tipped is a huge problem.

 

[bicker]

My earlier points were really about how things are now, and how people are expected to behave as things are now. Beyond that, I totally can respect the concern with the obligation (even though I don't agree with it). Regarding whether it would be better the way things are versus how you suggest they should be, my perspective is that I prefer patrons, the folks who are in the best position to gauge the quality of service they themselves received, the power to control the merit-based compensation of a server. What advantage is there, to the patron or to the business, of the other approach? The patron is going to pay about the same, regardless, because if the expectation to tip is removed, then menu prices will increase 15%, or quality of food ingredients and ambiance will decrease by an amount reflecting that substantial increase in cost. Similarly, the business doesn't benefit either, because the short-term financial picture is, again, a wash, while long-term higher menu prices dissuade patronage, so overall revenues could decline.

 

[declansdad]

Still don't agree. If the cost is built in, everybody knows what to expect. The server will know what their pay is and the customer will not feel the pressure to provide a tip when one is not warranted or having to decide what to tip, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%.

A servers job is to serve the customer; that's what they are paid for. If they have a problem with the rate of pay, that is not the fault of the customer. Customers will tip if they feel it is deserved but many do not like that they are expected to tip. In my opinion, this is one of the big downfalls in customer service.

 

[DawnCt1]

If one is not from the United States and unfamiliar with which positions are "tipped" and "untipped", it would behoove them to purchase a guide book or go on any number of travel websites to familiarize themselves with the practice. Seems like a simple solution.

 

[declansdad]

If one is not from the United States and unfamiliar with which positions are "tipped" and "untipped", it would behoove them to purchase a guide book or go on any number of travel websites to familiarize themselves with the practice. Seems like a simple solution.

Sorry but that has nothing to do with it. That is not what tipping is. It is a gratuity. No one is saying that people don't tip but rather we are discussing the reasons for tipping.

 

[DawnCt1]

Sorry but that has nothing to do with it. That is not what tipping is. It is a gratuity. No one is saying that people don't tip but rather we are discussing the reasons for tipping.

Sometimes the only reason is "custom". Additional funds beyond the customary 15% are for outstanding service.

 

[bicker]

declansdad:

I don't dispute that everyone will know how much to expect to pay, but I don't think that there is a big difference: Everyone now (should) know to expect to pay about 15% more than the menu price.

I don't dispute that mediocre servers will benefit from their ability to rely on a certain income, regardless of the fact that their service is mediocre. However, many (most?) American servers contend that they would make a lot less income if the current system is scuttled. They would know, and it is their advantage/disadvantage to risk, not the patrons'.

A patron can just decide to add 15% blindly... I believe that few if any would say that that is inappropriate even with today's system... so the concern about the "pressure" of "having to decide" isn't very significant IMHO.

Your message veered back into the realm of how things are now...

A server's job is (mostly) to serve their customer; that's what they're tipped for. Their (typically, less-than-minimum) regular wages serve as a foundation and obstensibly can be considered to cover their prep-work, i.e., cutting veggies for the salad prep station, rolling up napkins, and of course for the off-hours that they have to work, when patronage is so inconsistent that they often don't have anyone to serve (but still have to be there, on-duty, standing ready, in case you want to have a meal right-then).

There really is no "fault" here. The server took the job based on the way things are, i.e., the society norm whereby their wages are substantially the expected gratuities they get from patrons. Their expectation that patrons will fulfill that societal obligation is reasonable. I don't think servers have a problem with the "rate of pay" -- the issue is the failure of some patrons to fulfill that societal obligation. (If it wasn't a societal obligation, that would be another story, but it is.)
​

Getting back to the idea of changing the way society is with regard to gratuities and restaurants...

I'm curious what advantage you see patrons and/or restaurants getting out of such a change. And how do you feel about the point I made about patrons being in the best position to gauge the quality of service they themselves received? I'm especially interested in why you consider the societal expectation to tip restaurant servers to be a "downfall" in customer service: Do you mean that you personally feel your enjoyment of the meal is degraded by that expectation? (That makes a lot of sense to me, though I don't personally feel that way.) Or are you saying that you feel that the expectation itself causes poorer quality service? (That doesn't make sense to me, and I'd ask you to explain that more, so I can understand it, if that is your feeling.)

 

[Miz Diz]

Please show me something that says customers are responsible for paying the servers?

Don't have anything in writing, but do you have the Disney Dining Experience card? Wait - they changed the name - can't remember the new name.

Disney automatically adds 18% gratuity. Our last trip, we ate at Sci Fi. First thing the waitress asked was if we were on DDP or DDE. The couple behind us were on DDP and gratuity is not automatically added. We got crappy service and they got great service. We were in the same car. We were seated first, but our order was taken last and our food was much later coming out and we had to ask for drink refills. The people behind us did not.

But I know this is all another thread and debate.

 

[mjkacmom]

Sorry but that has nothing to do with it. That is not what tipping is. It is a gratuity. No one is saying that people don't tip but rather we are discussing the reasons for tipping.

If you don't want to tip, don't eat in the USA. Every country/culture has it's own traditions and customs, some are written, some are just known. That is why there are guide books, to help travellers know what is expected, and not to do anything inappropriate.