To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

4 Weeks to go - Canova Specific Phase - Week 6/10





10/10/22-10/16/22
Tues (10/11): Canova Specific Extensive Endurance
Wed (10/12): 6.5 miles @ 60-70% M Tempo (9:17 min/mile, 125 bpm)
Thurs (10/13): 11 miles @ 87.5% M Tempo (7:56 min/mile, 132 bpm)
Fri (10/14): 6.5 miles @ 60-70% M Tempo (9:08 min/mile, 126 bpm)
Sat (10/15): 6.5 miles @ 60-70% M Tempo (9:20 min/mile, 120 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Back
Sun (10/16): Canova Special Marathon Block on Jack/Jill - AM and PM workouts

Total Run Miles - 64.4 miles
Total Run Time - 8:41 hours
Total Strength Time - 0:30 hours
Total Training Time - 9:11 hours


Tuesday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 9mph to 19mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 46°F + 44°F; FL - 42°F
End: Temp+Dew = 52°F + 50°F; FL - 42°F

We ended last week with a little concern about the left groin and right achilles. Although neither were of any concern during this run or any other this week. I had the day off from work for this one. So nice early morning chilly workout. I would have preferred it a little colder and with a little less wind.

4 sets of (2.5 miles at 100% M Tempo + 1km at 85-90% M Tempo)

100% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:02 min/mile
85-90% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:44-8:05 min/mile
No T+D adjustments allowed in Specific Phase. Would have been a 2 sec/mile effect.







Actual Pace = 7:07 min/mile (7:11, 7:00, 7:10, 7:09) and 7:57 min/mile (7:53, 8:10, 8:01, 7:46)
Grade Adjusted Pace = 7:05 min/mile (7:04, 7:02, 7:12, 7:04) and 7:51 min/mile (7:47, 7:49, 8:00, 7:49)

I'd love to sit here and type all about this run, but honestly, I don't remember much of anything. I remember giving a solid effort level. I remember that I felt like I was floating during the last recovery interval at 7:46 pace. I also remember almost getting hit by a school bus because it took the corner a little tighter than I was expecting (jumped up on to the curve to avoid it). All in all it was a pretty solid run. The pace was a hair slower than goal, but not by much. The splits were fairly consistent. So I'll take it. In total it was 10 miles at M Tempo with an additional 2.5 miles of recovery intervals at a decent pace in between reps. So even the 12.5 miles was 7:16 min/mile pace average.




Wednesday

Conditions - Partly Cloudy, Wind 12mph to 20mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 56°F + 46°F; FL - 56°F
End: Temp+Dew = 54°F + 45°F; FL - 56°F

Body felt decent coming off the effort yesterday. That continues to be a trend here in the 4th phase (Specific) of the Canova cycle. In the third cycle, I was definitely coming out of the workouts feeling like a train wreck in the next workout. But my body is recovering quite well from run to run, and there's little to no massive amounts of fatigue. Certainly I don't feel like I want to run any faster, but I could if I absolutely had to. So the body and the level of difficulty of the workouts seems like a good place. Maybe they aren't hard enough? Although on paper, they're pretty hard.




Thursday

Conditions - Mostly Cloudy, Wind 12mph to 20mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 44°F + 34°F; FL - 38°F
End: Temp+Dew = 41°F + 34°F; FL - 38°F

It's time to retire the blue Next% shoes (they were Madison 2021 race shoes, Princess Weekend main training shoes, and Canova moderate day shoes). So the orange Next% 2 shoes have moved from Princess Weekend 2022 race shoes, Canova main training shoes, to Canova moderate day shoes). And a new pair of red Next% 2 shoes are moving in as the new main training shoes. The blue shoes probably ended with around 1000 miles, and the orange shoes probably have like 500-600 miles on them. I could sit down and roughly calculate it. *Actually did and it comes out to about 530 miles. So they're not "race ready" anymore, but they're still performing quite well as the moderate day shoe.

Pretty sure it was this run and the next that felt essentially effortless. I was just floating along at a slightly faster pace than intended, but felt strong for almost the entire workout. Never really challenged or pressed. That's a nice feeling to have for a 11 mile 7:56 pace workout.

I wore shorts, tank top, light gloves, and no headband. I think I should have worn a headband, but other than that the outfit was good. A neighbor that I see nearly every day yelled (in a nice way) that it was probably time to put something on other than a tank top. I said, not quite yet. These temps are my wheelhouse.




Friday

Conditions - 🌧 Possible Drizzle, Wind 10mph to 18mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 44°F + 33°F; FL - 39°F
End: Temp+Dew = 42°F + 33°F; FL - 39°F

Like I said, pretty sure this run felt essentially effortless. No real pains or soreness to speak of either. Just gliding along. I wore a light long sleeve, light hat, light gloves, and shorts. I was comfortable.




Saturday

Conditions - Partly Cloudy, Wind 8mph to 16mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 31°F + 31°F; FL - 24°F
End: Temp+Dew = 33°F + 31°F; FL - 24°F

I wore a light long sleeve, light hat, medium gloves, and shorts. The legs were a little cold, but not too bad. The medium gloves got a little hot towards the end, but since it was an easy day I wasn't overly concerned. The run was a bit more sluggish than the last two. Not nearly as effortless. With that being said the HR was nice and low as was the effort. Just getting myself prepared for tomorrow's double.

I did the final week of LIIFT4 - Chest/Back. I cruised through the workout with the 30lb dumbbells and may need to consider moving up eventually. It's crazy how light the lower weights feel now.




Sunday

Conditions - Mostly Cloudy, Wind 7mph to 15mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 38°F + 36°F; FL - 33°F
End: Temp+Dew = 40°F + 37°F; FL - 33°F

Alright, my second and last attempt at the Canova Special Marathon Block. A daily double repeat of the same workout:

35 min @ 87.5% M Tempo + 35 min @ 100% M Tempo

Optional Stimulus: Consume no carbs between workouts (I'm not doing this part)

I only drank a liquid IV and ate a nature grain bar before the run. No carbs during the run because it's under 90 min. I wore a tank top, shorts, headband, and light gloves. I was completely comfortable in this outfit at these paces. I also wore the new red Next%2 shoes.

87.5% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:55 min/mile
100% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:02 min/mile

No T+D adjustments allowed in Specific Phase







87.5% Actual Pace = 7:52 min/mile
85% Grade Adj Pace = 7:48 min/mile

100% Actual Pace = 7:02 min/mile
100% Grade Adj Pace = 6:57 min/mile

So this workout was suppose to start at 85% M Tempo. But the last few weeks, I've increased the moderate day a touch to 87.5% M Tempo. Not consciously, but that just seems to be where my body is gravitating to right now. So it didn't come as much of a surprise to see myself hovering around the 7:55 pace instead of the 8:05 pace. Question was, was it going to come back and bite me during the 100% M Tempo portion which I haven't nailed yet (although I haven't had many low 30 wind chill days fall on these hard effort workouts)? I decided to see what happens. The 87.5% pace felt about as good as expected. The new Next%2 shoes definitely had more of a pop to them. I never really felt pressed and wrapped up the 35 min in about 4.44 miles and 7:52 pace.

Then came time to throw down the hammer a bit. I increased the effort to what felt right for 100% M Tempo, and settled in for the 35 min bout. I hit the first mile at 7:10, but wasn't overly concerned because I knew it was a positive GAP mile. I was off a touch on my GAP mile markers, so I hit the lap button when I reached the top of the hill at 5.5 miles to get back on track. Then I bolted down the hill, saw a 6:40 at the half way mark of the downhill and knew I was in a good place. Hit that split at 6:41. Turned around and headed up the full hill. Hit the mid-split at 7:05 and knew I was aiming for about 7:22-7:27 so I was doing alright. Hit that split at 7:14 and knew I was a little too hot on that one. I raced back down the hill. I was focusing on my breathing and keeping my eyes up. Hit the mid-split at 6:49 and knew I was a touch behind goal. So I buckled down and really dropped the hammer a little more. I ended that split at 6:46 which was good because it meant I was able to increase the pace over that last 0.5 mile (something like 6:43 pace). I knew all I had left was to make it back home. This was a fun test because I've done this timed workout two prior times. So I should make it a little bit further if I'm going a little bit faster. So it was nice to see where I finished the run compared to the other two times. I was definitely feeling the effects of the last hill climb, but came in at 7:11 pace (6:56 GAP) which was close to target.

All in all a good run. But the day's not done yet....


****

Conditions - Overcast, Wind 13mph to 21mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 47°F + 37°F; FL - 41°F
End: Temp+Dew = 45°F + 36°F; FL - 41°F

Second repeat of the same workout today:

35 min @ 87.5% M Tempo + 35 min @ 100% M Tempo

Optional Stimulus: Consume no carbs between workouts (I'm not doing this part)

87.5% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:55 min/mile
100% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:02 min/mile

No T+D adjustments allowed in Specific Phase







87.5% Actual Pace = 7:40 min/mile
85% Grade Adj Pace = 7:34 min/mile

100% Actual Pace = 7:08 min/mile
100% Grade Adj Pace = 7:04 min/mile

Felt way too good to start. The first 35 min felt ridiculously easy. That caught up to me in the second 35 min. Didn't help that a windy portion of weather rolled in during the second half. I fought hard for that second half 100% M Tempo. It was a little slower to start, but I rallied as the run went along and closed well.

Not much time left in the training plan now. Just the home stretch and we're on to race day. Gotta keep my head down and stay healthy. Next week only has one hard day (another Specific Intensive Endurance) and several easy/moderate days.

 

[azrivest]

Congrats on the double workout day, and congrats on the peak fitness! I saw your post in Strava this week

 

[DopeyBadger]

Congrats on the double workout day, and congrats on the peak fitness! I saw your post in Strava this week

Thanks! Glad to have that one checked off.

 

[SheHulk]

 

[DopeyBadger]

The Marathon Taper

I mean, it's almost that time, or maybe it is that time? So what do you do as time starts ticking down on your upcoming marathon, but read some recent research articles about the art of the marathon taper. I came across an intriguing (and free to read) study from 2021.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2021.735220/full

AUTHOR=Smyth Barry, Lawlor Aonghus
TITLE=Longer Disciplined Tapers Improve Marathon Performance for Recreational Runners
JOURNAL=Frontiers in Sports and Active Living
VOLUME=3
YEAR=2021

The simplified run down of the article is the following:

They collected data from 158,000+ Strava runners who ran a marathon between 2014-2017, and analyzed their running patterns for the 23 weeks leading up to the race. So it's completely possible that if you ran a marathon during that period of time and used Strava, that your data may have been included in this study. The goal was to look at the last four weeks of training (the taper) and the pattern of mileage the runners used and the influence on their final marathon time. It's important to note that this makes this a correlational study instead of a controlled experiment. Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. So in a controlled experiment, the researchers would be interactive with the runners and tell them what to do during the taper to see the influences on performance. Instead, they're looking at what the runners did on their own and trying to draw conclusions based on the trends. These can be useful studies, but a controlled experiment would be more confirmatory of the conclusion. With that being said, it's interesting to review.

They define different tapers by their length in weeks, and by how each of those week's mileage compare to the proceeding week. The 4 week out compares to the average of 5 and 6 weeks out. Three weeks out compares to four weeks out, two weeks out compares to three weeks out, and one week out compares to two weeks out. They use "strict" or "relaxed" to define whether the down weeks are consecutive. So a strict taper has consecutive down weeks, and a relaxed taper has an up week splitting down weeks. So that means there are 8 different types of tapers using their methodology:

4 week strict - Down, down, down, down
3 week strict - Up, down, down, down
3 week relaxed - Down, up, down, down OR Down, down, up, down, OR Down, down, down, up
2 week strict
2 week relaxed
1 week strict
1 week relaxed
None - Up, Up, Up, Up

And you can figure out the variety of other combinations that would make up the others listed above (as there are plenty). Now on my first, second, and third run through of this article and compiling my own data to match their methodology, I was always getting hung up. Essentially, I was using "weeks" to be defined as the standard Sunday to Saturday, or Monday to Sunday. But what's really important is that your data should be compiled in "Days prior to M". So "Week 1" should be compiled by using 1 day prior to 7 days prior. So if your race occurs on a Sunday, then the "Week 1" data includes Sunday, Monday, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat (then race day on Sunday). A total of 7 days of possible running data. However, if your race occurs on Saturday, then your proceeding 7 days of data would be Saturday, Sun, Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri (then race day on Saturday). This subtle quirk isn't well flushed out in the paper, but it can influence the type of "taper method" you end up assigning to your data.

Now their method of assessing performance is interesting. There's straight up finish time, but they also wanted to have a method for comparing performance across individuals. So what they did is compare the fastest 10k split during the 23 weeks prior to race day to an individual's marathon performance pace. Essentially, they assumed (and they point out rightly or wrongly) that many people will race during the 23 weeks prior to the marathon, and the 10k split will give them a reasonable way to judge someone's fitness. Then how that individual does in the marathon (via pace) can be compared to an assumed fitness level based on the best 10k split pace from the previous 23 weeks. This becomes a percentage.

(10k split pace) / (M split pace) = Finish Time Efficiency %

Now I was curious. The Riegel running formula is based on an exponential relationship between race times of different distances. But this formula is using a % difference instead. So I was curious whether I would expect a similar % relationship based on the VDOT calculator system, and whether the data would skew one way or the other based on different fitness profiles choosing different taper methods. For instance, if a 2 week relaxed was mostly followed by 6 hr marathon runners and a 4 week strict was mostly followed by 3 hr marathon runners, would that influence the FTE value they are using to compare individuals?



The answer is yes. Because per VDOT, a 6hr marathon runner would see a 94.4% FTE relationship between marathon and 10k, whereas a 3 hr marathon runner would see a 91.5% FTE relationship. So in theory, this could be a flaw in the methodology, but Figure 3 and 5 suggests that the mean training pace and 10k spit being used is reasonably close when comparing the different taper methods. It's something to keep in mind, but may not matter.

The other thing I found curious was the distribution of runners and their type of marathon taper (Figure 4).



It's pretty common to have your longest long run on the Sunday of three weeks prior to your Sunday race (21 days out). So with that, why were there so many 2 week relaxed and 3 week relaxed? Shouldn't there be more 3 week strict? Peak week at 4 weeks to go, then down, down, down? Well it goes back to the methodology of defining weeks by "Day 1 to 7 days prior". Because of that the traditional Sunday 21 day out peak workout for a Sunday race occurring on Day 21 would fall in Week 3 and not Week 4. Week 4 actually pulls from the weekend prior. So since Day 21 is part of Week 3, instead of getting a Up, down, down, down in a traditional training plan, it's more common to see Down, up, down, down (a relax 3 week). Of course if you do your longest training runs on Saturday for a Sunday race, then it means your LR is now in Week 4 and you'd be doing a strict 3 week. The question is though, does moving your LR by 24 hrs really impact your final race performance by that much. Since this is a correlative study, I'd say that it would be uncommon to try and move a LR to Day 22 instead of Day 21 to improve your final performance by a few minutes. In reality, those people probably have their LR on Day 28 instead of Day 21.

With the background of the study set up, what did the results of the study suggest?

Figure 6 of their paper:



FIGURE 6. A comparison of (A) finish-time efficiency (FTE) and (B) finish-time benefit (FTB) by taper type using the relaxed 1-week taper as a baseline minimal taper.

They used the 1-week taper as the comparison group (only about 88 out of 158.000 runners used no taper, and the authors rightly threw that out as a comparison group for a variety of good reasons). About 8000 runners used a 1 week taper. As Figure 6 shows, as the taper length increases (from 1 week to 4 weeks) and the adherence to continuous down weeks (strict vs relaxed) occurs the FTE improves. Such that at the min/max a relaxed 1 week taper yields a 84.21 FTE% and 3 week strict yields a 86.38 FTE%. But what does that mean in real world terms? Let's go back to our 6 hr through 3 hr runners:



If you can run a 52:25 10k, then the median runner would do a 4:22:35 on a 1 week relaxed vs a 4:15:59 on a 3 week strict. That's a gain of about 6 min off your finish time based on taper methodology for the median runner. It's not a huge change, but 6 min off a 52:25 10k fitness runner's marathon finish time is nothing to scoff at. The data also reinforces that for the median runner, more down weeks leading into the race is a good thing. With the most dramatic changes coming from a 1 week vs 3 week system. And a strict tends to be better than a relaxed. Which as the authors point out makes sense because someone could do a relaxed and have an up week the 7 days prior to the race, and I'd agree that it probably would negatively impact your final performance.

You could be asking yourself, "But hey, you've got a 4 hour marathon runner with a 52:25 10k time based on VDOT, but then the data shows the median runner is doing a 4:16-4:31 based on their taper type. What gives? Does that make this data unrealistic?" And my response would be, no. Actually it makes the data more realistic. As we've discussed before, VDOT and the conversion to a marathon is what is unrealistic for the normal recreational runner. According to Williams/Vickers data sets covered before, only about 6% of runners hit that VDOT or Riegel marathon conversion. This data from this study about tapers reinforces that information with good recreational runner data.

There are other comparisons and conclusions drawn in the paper, but I won't get into those for my purpose.

So with the knowledge gained from this paper, the next question for myself was, what does my data show? I've done several marathons. I've followed similar training plans for many races, but have had differing levels of success. Did I have different types of tapers in my past training plans? So in order to accomplish this, I complied all of the data from the 42 days prior to my past marathons. I broke them into "weeks" using 1-7, 8-14, 15-21, 22-28, 29-35, and 36-42 days out. I then compared the sum total of those days to the proceeding weeks to determine whether my mileage went up or down.



Per the authors, the degree at which the mileage went up or down when comparing doesn't matter (so 51.1 miles and then 51.0 miles is the same as 51.1 miles and then 44 miles). I chose the seven marathons that were after I made the switch to slow training, and did not include the marathons done when using the run+cycle+strength methodology. In those 7 marathons, I did:

One 2 week relax
One 2 week strict
Four 3 week relax
Zero 3 week strict
One 4 week strict

So despite using a similar training methodology for most of these races, the taper type varied because of some quirks in training. Like in marathon #8 (Wisconsin 2016) I missed the LR on Day 21 and didn't make it up. So my last LR was on Day 35. This gave me a relaxed two week. But Dopey 2017, I missed the LR on Day 21 and did it on Day 20 instead. Based on the data, I ended up with a 4 week strict leading into that race.

Next, once I had my taper types defined, I wanted to see what my FTE % was for each of the different races. So I needed some race or fitness test or reasonable assumption about fitness in the 23 weeks leading into the race.



All seven marathons had at least one race performance in the 23 weeks prior. Some as long as 22 weeks out, and others 2 days prior (Hello Dopey!). If the race wasn't a 10k, then I used VDOT to convert the HM time into a 10k time (not what the authors did, but for my purpose I think it's a valid move). I then used that 10k pace to compare against the marathon pace achieved (using the official race time divided by the official race distance and ignoring GPS quirks) to calculate my FTE %. For the six marathons that weren't a Dopey with a HM proceeding it, my FTE % ranged from 87.8% to 92.1%. Comparing across taper types and designing my chart in a similar manner to Figure 6 yields:



I don't have 158,000 data points in my chart, but my six data points do follow a reasonably similar pattern. This exercise for me was enlightening. The Lakefront 2017 marathon has always been an enigma to me. My fitness going into the race was high. I had high expectations to match that high level of fitness. And while it has remained my PR 5 years later, it always puzzled me as to why I felt so flat on race day. It didn't help that I had jelly legs entering the race, and may have had periods of overtraining syndrome, but it also appears I had a somewhat truncated taper going into that race as well. Conversely, when I've done a 3 week relaxed or 4 week strict, I've performed well and felt strong during the race itself. I mean look at Disney 2017 (the year of no HM during Dopey). I ran a 43:25 10k (as an all out effort) two days prior to the marathon. It predicted a 3:20:14 via VDOT. I ran a 3:20:52. So a mere 2 days after a then 10k PR, I ran almost exactly what it would have predicted in a marathon race.

So with this information in hand, I was curious to see what I had planned for myself using the Canova methodology for the 2022 Madison Marathon. Ended up, I was on course for a "3 week strict". This is because I don't have my peak workout on Day 21. I had my peak workout on Day 28 which puts it in "Week 4" instead of "Week 3". My 3 week relaxed average conversion was 91.65%. I don't have a race within the last 23 weeks. But I feel reasonably confident that I'm in a similar place to when I entered Dopey 2018 and ran a 39:54 10k (6:25 min/mile). A 91.65% FTE on a 6:25 min/mile is a 7:00 min/mile or 3:03:31 finish. My best conversion was a 92.1% (Lakefront 2016) which would be a 6:58 min/mile or 3:02:37 finish. Of course this all assumes I'm actually in 39:54 shape, which is an unknown since I don't have a recent race. But I guess we'll see.

So that's where my dive into the marathon taper took me. I wanted to see if there was data out there about methodologies in taper methods, and impacts on performance. This paper was pretty much what I was looking for. It's not perfect, but the data makes sense. I'm using this information combined with other marathon tips (like maintaining intensity despite dropping volume (and the volume of intensity drops as well) during the marathon taper). For those that have done multiple marathons, what do you see within your own data? Thanks for reading!

 

[SheHulk]

What is the difference between 1 week strict and 1 week relaxed? You have a long run within that 1 week period? How is that different from no taper?
And why no 4 week relaxed? That sounds like it could be somewhat common?

 

[lookingforsunshine]

I came across an intriguing (and free to read) study from 2021.

If you ever come across something you can’t access I can probably get it for you since I’m at a R1.

 

[DopeyBadger]

What is the difference between 1 week strict and 1 week relaxed? You have a long run within that 1 week period? How is that different from no taper?

No Taper = Up, up, up, up

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 53, 54 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, up, up.

1 week strict = Up, up, up, down

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 53, 45 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, up, down.

1 week relaxed = Up, up, down, up OR up, down, up, up OR down, up, up, up

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 45, 53 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, down, up.

And why no 4 week relaxed? That sounds like it could be somewhat common?

By definition relaxed is when an "up" interrupts the "down" within the 4 week period. Since, you need 4 downs to be 4 weeks, there isn't a week available to be "up". Therefore, there can't be an "up" to interrupt. The only "4 week" combination possible is down, down, down, down. That would look like:

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 48, 46, 44, 42 in the four weeks, then that would be down, down, down, down.

If you ever come across something you can’t access I can probably get it for you since I’m at a R1.

Thanks for the offer. That comment was for everyone else. I've got access to nearly 100% of research articles through my job. And anything I don't have access to I can request and generally get access within a few days.

 

[SheHulk]

No Taper = Up, up, up, up

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 53, 54 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, up, up.

1 week strict = Up, up, up, down

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 53, 45 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, up, down.

1 week relaxed = Up, up, down, up OR up, down, up, up OR down, up, up, up

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 51, 52, 45, 53 in the four weeks, then that would be up, up, down, up.



By definition relaxed is when an "up" interrupts the "down" within the 4 week period. Since, you need 4 downs to be 4 weeks, there isn't a week available to be "up". Therefore, there can't be an "up" to interrupt. The only "4 week" combination possible is down, down, down, down. That would look like:

So let's say 5-6 week average is 50. If you did 48, 46, 44, 42 in the four weeks, then that would be down, down, down, down.



Thanks for the offer. That comment was for everyone else. I've got access to nearly 100% of research articles through my job. And anything I don't have access to I can request and generally get access within a few days.

ohhhhh what you're describing as 1 week strict, I thought was 2 weeks strict!
And I guess any 4 relaxed would be re-categorized based on the next "up" so to speak. Makes sense.

 

[DopeyBadger]

ohhhhh what you're describing as 1 week strict, I thought was 2 weeks strict!
And I guess any 4 relaxed would be re-categorized based on the next "up" so to speak. Makes sense.

Two week strict = up, up, down, down

 

[SheHulk]

I sent this article to multiple friends already thank you

 

[DopeyBadger]

I sent this article to multiple friends already thank you

What types of marathon tapers have you done prior?

 

[SheHulk]

What types of marathon tapers have you done prior?

I do whatever you tell me Billy! Looking at marathon only plans (not Goofy's), It looks like a "strict 3" if I can get it right: Up, down, down, race. For the 2018 WDW Marathon, and this past Philly Marathon 2021. Prior to that, I don't have my records saved so I'm not sure.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I do whatever you tell me Billy! Looking at marathon only plans (not Goofy's), It looks like a "strict 3" if I can get it right: Up, down, down, race. For the 2018 WDW Marathon, and this past Philly Marathon 2021. Prior to that, I don't have my records saved so I'm not sure.

Cool! Plan #533 does look like a strict 3 week.

 

[SheHulk]

Oh thank goodness. It was bothering me that I can't get this simple idea down

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Interesting analysis! It's awesome that you have all this data to play with (and the skills to do it).

I don't have another marathon for comparison, but if I'm understanding this right, my current plan has a 3-week relaxed taper (down, up, down, down), so we'll see how that goes.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

For those that have done multiple marathons, what do you see within your own data?

I'm not sure if my answers are helpful, but they are based on my experience and perhaps the end results help even if the leadup to Dopey tweaks the marathon results.

2019: I tapered with what you prescribed until I caught a cold one week before leaving for Disney World. I did not run at all for roughly 10 days until Dopey started. I was almost perfect in my training runs leading up to the cold. On each day of the Dopey races I felt progressively stronger from where I felt the day before considering all the taper runs I missed. Despite very warm temperatures, I finished in around 6:58 including character stops. Those add to my time, but I never once heard any warning about needing to pick up the pace because the balloon ladies were 1 minute or so behind. At what few times I did hear where they were, I was at least 15 minutes ahead. I ran about 3 of the last 4 miles with an ice bag on my head to cool down.

2020: I again tapered according to your plan. No illness so normal taper. Despite the warmer half marathon and the brutal intense marathon heat that cut the course short, including me, I still finished the marathon without ever hearing any sweep risk. If you were to add my normal average per mile pace to my final course shortened time, I still would have shortened my PR by at least 5 minutes from the previous year despite the heat. Now I recognize that I may not have put in those actual times given the heat, but I felt stronger at the end of 2020 than 2019. Some of this may be to having run less, but I also think that the experience of 2019 helped me finish stronger in 2020 because I had done it before. I ran from mile 13 to mile 21 with an ice bag on my head mostly out of prevention. I did not use one after mile 21 because I did not need one.

2022: Things may be interesting here. Taper was again normal although this time I also incorporated heat acclimation training according to your schedule. However, my mental state heading into Dopey was not good. I was emotionally spent and torn between wanting to go to Disney World and feeling like I could not because the stress was so high. So mentally, I was kind of a mess. Then I got really excited and spent 4 hours in line to ride Rise of the Resistance 3 times in a row when I was "supposed" to be going to bed for the 5K. So I ran the 5K on maybe 4 hours of sleep. So I was not as mentally happy as normal before a race and I was more sore than normal during Dopey.

For the marathon itself, my back felt more sore than normal. Nonetheless, I shaved roughly 10 minutes off my actual marathon PR from 2019 including what I think was a normal amount of character stops. Though the weather was hot that day, I did not feel it was that hot although perhaps that's because in comparison I had run in warmer weather and/or heat acclimation training made that much of a difference. I did not need an ice bag at all although I made a couple of stops at the medical tent for biofreeze on my back.

If there is one thing that I think can be learned from all this it's that consistency counts. The more consistent you are in running leading up to the taper, the better prepared you are to handle whatever the race throws at you whether it be recovering from a cold, very hot weather, or just not feeling right mentally leading up to race day.

 

[FFigawi]

Great explanation and analysis of their study on tapering. Now you make we want to go back and look at my marathon race results and what my tapering looked like before my best performances. I believe my PR was set when my last peak week/peak run was about two weeks before race day.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Interesting analysis! It's awesome that you have all this data to play with (and the skills to do it).

I don't have another marathon for comparison, but if I'm understanding this right, my current plan has a 3-week relaxed taper (down, up, down, down), so we'll see how that goes.

Thanks! Makes sense as a 3 week relaxed is pretty common.

I'm not sure if my answers are helpful, but they are based on my experience and perhaps the end results help even if the leadup to Dopey tweaks the marathon results.

2019: I tapered with what you prescribed until I caught a cold one week before leaving for Disney World. I did not run at all for roughly 10 days until Dopey started. I was almost perfect in my training runs leading up to the cold. On each day of the Dopey races I felt progressively stronger from where I felt the day before considering all the taper runs I missed. Despite very warm temperatures, I finished in around 6:58 including character stops. Those add to my time, but I never once heard any warning about needing to pick up the pace because the balloon ladies were 1 minute or so behind. At what few times I did hear where they were, I was at least 15 minutes ahead. I ran about 3 of the last 4 miles with an ice bag on my head to cool down.

2020: I again tapered according to your plan. No illness so normal taper. Despite the warmer half marathon and the brutal intense marathon heat that cut the course short, including me, I still finished the marathon without ever hearing any sweep risk. If you were to add my normal average per mile pace to my final course shortened time, I still would have shortened my PR by at least 5 minutes from the previous year despite the heat. Now I recognize that I may not have put in those actual times given the heat, but I felt stronger at the end of 2020 than 2019. Some of this may be to having run less, but I also think that the experience of 2019 helped me finish stronger in 2020 because I had done it before. I ran from mile 13 to mile 21 with an ice bag on my head mostly out of prevention. I did not use one after mile 21 because I did not need one.

2022: Things may be interesting here. Taper was again normal although this time I also incorporated heat acclimation training according to your schedule. However, my mental state heading into Dopey was not good. I was emotionally spent and torn between wanting to go to Disney World and feeling like I could not because the stress was so high. So mentally, I was kind of a mess. Then I got really excited and spent 4 hours in line to ride Rise of the Resistance 3 times in a row when I was "supposed" to be going to bed for the 5K. So I ran the 5K on maybe 4 hours of sleep. So I was not as mentally happy as normal before a race and I was more sore than normal during Dopey.

For the marathon itself, my back felt more sore than normal. Nonetheless, I shaved roughly 10 minutes off my actual marathon PR from 2019 including what I think was a normal amount of character stops. Though the weather was hot that day, I did not feel it was that hot although perhaps that's because in comparison I had run in warmer weather and/or heat acclimation training made that much of a difference. I did not need an ice bag at all although I made a couple of stops at the medical tent for biofreeze on my back.

If there is one thing that I think can be learned from all this it's that consistency counts. The more consistent you are in running leading up to the taper, the better prepared you are to handle whatever the race throws at you whether it be recovering from a cold, very hot weather, or just not feeling right mentally leading up to race day.

Nice summary.

Great explanation and analysis of their study on tapering. Now you make we want to go back and look at my marathon race results and what my tapering looked like before my best performances. I believe my PR was set when my last peak week/peak run was about two weeks before race day.

The key is also looking at the FTE % in addition to the raw performance. My PR (3:14:05) is also my worst non-Dopey with a HM FTE%. My fitness was in a better place than how I performed. So be sure to look at the race results both ways.

 

[DopeyBadger]

3 Weeks to go - Canova Specific Phase - Week 7/10






10/17/22-10/23/22
Tues (10/18): 6.5 miles @ 60-70% M Tempo (9:29 min/mile, 125 bpm)
Wed (10/19): 11 miles @ 86% M Tempo (8:00 min/mile, 134 bpm)
Thurs (10/20): Canova Specific Intensive Endurance
Fri (10/21): 6.5 miles @ 60-70% M Tempo (9:27 min/mile, 124 bpm)
Sat (10/22): 9 miles @ 87% M Tempo (7:57 min/mile, 132 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Triceps
Sun (10/23): 11 miles @ 87% M Tempo (7:58 min/mile, 133 bpm) + LIIFT4-Chest/Triceps

Total Run Miles - 57.9 miles
Total Run Time - 7:57 hours
Total Strength Time - 0:55 hours
Total Training Time - 8:52 hours


Tuesday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 17mph to 28mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 42°F + 27°F; FL - 34°F
End: Temp+Dew = 40°F + 26°F; FL - 34°F

Ended last week in a good health standpoint. I don't remember any lingering issues coming off the Canova Specific Marathon Block double workout. My body did have a really tough time recovering from that workout though. Normally my Garmin Body Battery value is mid 70-80 by Monday morning. It did get to 100 by Tuesday morning, so it just took a little longer than normal. Not terribly surprising given the difficulty of the workout and the nature of it having an AM and PM component.

I don't remember anything specific about the run itself.



Wednesday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 9mph to 15mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 41°F + 26°F; FL - 35°F
End: Temp+Dew = 37°F + 25°F; FL - 35°F

Didn't know how to handle this one. The hard workout this week was supposed to be on Friday morning. But work obligations shifted my ability to take a day off to Thursday. So the turnaround from this workout to the hard Thursday morning workout was going to be about 12 hours. I decided to roll with the 11 miles at the moderate pace level, but was willing to do less if it felt like I needed to in the moment. Ultimately the run felt fine. Maybe the effort level felt off by a touch, but not much. But was it going to cost me Thursday morning?




Thursday

Conditions - Partly Cloudy, Wind 9mph to 17mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 33°F + 17°F; FL - 26°F
End: Temp+Dew = 40°F + 20°F; FL - 26°F

Woke up and knew that I probably had overdone it on Wednesday night. I was still somewhat sore, and wasn't sure what my body was going to give me on this challenging workout.

8 sets (1km at 97% M Tempo + 1 km at 103% M Tempo)

97% M Tempo Goal Pace = 7:15 min/mile
103% M Tempo Goal Pace = 6:50 min/mile

This is an alternation of paces right around marathon tempo. It's called an over/under, and it helps the body become more efficient at clearing fatigue at goal pace. It also has the added benefit of making the slower of the two paces actually feel easier. Mentally I went into this imagining it more like the middle/end of the race. Less fresh and having to fight for every inch. It felt like that.

97% M Tempo Actual Pace = 7:21 min/mile
97% M Tempo Grade Adj Pace = 7:20 min/mile

103% M Tempo Actual Pace = 7:04 min/mile
103% M Tempo Grade Adj Pace = 6:56 min/mile






Essentially I gave myself the freedom to stop the workout after any rep set. I had done 6 reps a few weeks ago, and this was 8 reps. Within each rep it felt like this was the one that was going to break me, but my body kept responding. I kept imagining what the finish of the race will feel like. The mind telling me it's time to shut it down, my physical body ailing and having a hard time keeping up, but my will keeping me moving forward. I made it the full 8 reps and was pretty beat afterwards. But the body rallied for the CD, and kept a reasonable pace. The route did me no favors as evidenced by the actual pace and GAP difference between the two pace sets. The 97% paced was only 1 sec/mi different, whereas the 103% paced was 8 sec/mile different. Essentially I got unlucky in that when I was suppose to go faster I also happened to be going uphill. All in all a good effort all things considered.



Friday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 9mph to 16mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 65°F + 46°F; FL - 65°F
End: Temp+Dew = 61°F + 47°F; FL - 65°F

Was a bit of a slog, but not feeling as terrible as I could of given the effort the day prior. My right knee was sore off and on throughout the day, but nothing during the run. This was because I was moving some heavy boxes after watching some clips of video game hunters looking for old games. Some games were going for crazy prices, so I had to see whether I had any of these rare games. Didn't end up having anything of crazy value myself though.




Saturday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 12mph to 22mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 49°F + 45°F; FL - 44°F
End: Temp+Dew = 53°F + 47°F; FL - 44°F

Plan is starting to wind down, so what used to be an 11 mile run was now 9 miles today. Windy and the temps creeped up, but not too bad. My body was in a weird quasi state where it felt hard to run, but simultaneously was easily keeping the pace. If that makes sense. Like I was sore, but also didn't have an urge to slow down. I just rolled with it. The right achilles was a little sore, but not too bad.

I did LIIFT4 Chest/Back afterwards.




Sunday

Conditions - Clear, Wind 13mph to 26mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 55°F + 54°F; FL - 55°F
End: Temp+Dew = 57°F + 54°F; FL - 55°F

Similar to the feelings I had Saturday. Body felt alright, but not without its moments of fatigue. Although I held onto the pace without any extra effort. Can't really complain when a sub-8 run day doesn't take much of any focus. The right knee had off and on moments of being noticeable.

All in all a good week. HRvPace is in a good place. Just three weeks until race day. Body still holding up and fitness is in a good place. Next week I've got a 16 miler at 7:23, and then a lesser SEE workout (2 x 3 miles at 100% M Tempo w/ 1km 90% M Tempo between reps).