Tipping in restaurants

McD's--my order would typically be a prepackaged salad with a pre-packaged kit that contains my appropriate dressing utensils and napkin. And to make it quasi-equivilent, I'll have an apple pie for dessert (a boxed eggroll grabbed from the warmer), and a paper wrapped burger. Comes to me in about 60 seconds once they grab everything from the appropriate areas.

When someone calls in their order, they get their order in 60 seconds or less at times too. So what is your point here?

My order is more work than yours is my point for NO tip. I order the big mac combo with extra sauce on the big mac and no pickles. I ask for a cup with mac sauce and a cup with tartar sauce for my fries. The CASHIERS have at times gotten those cups of condiments for me. I never said every single time, but MANY times they have.

Medium Rare Ribeye with a baked potato "loaded" where they had to package up my butter, sour cream, and my bacon bits and a salad with no egg and no onion and extra honey mustard dressing which again had to be packaged up.

The honey mustard is probably already poured in the refrigerator. The reason why I say this, some servers at Chili's have given me already poured to-go containers of ranch when I have asked for a to-go container for my ranch when we dined inside. It was probably because it was already prepared ahead of time. That means they poured that honey mustard most likely BEFORE you even ordered. Let's say for your argument sake they didn't, it's the same tasks as the cashier at McDonald's getting me the condiments in the cup then.

The Mcdonald's cashier had to package my 2 syrups, 3 butters, and 2 jellies for my hotcakes and sausage, so I fail to see how it's more work? Do you see my point?

And of course, they give you rolls and then had to package up my butter. Having watched servers package up other orders when we actually go to the restaurant, this takes them about 5 minutes or so to assemble.

It would depend on the amount you order as to how long it takes. I can put 10 rolls in a bag under a minute. Where do you get 5 entire minutes from, I have no clue? As far as putting rolls in a bag goes, shouldn't you think about that the workers are getting paid a wage of some sort to do SOMETHING for their money(let's say it is $2.13/hr)? The entire list of things they do, well some of that is getting paid for if you think about it. There is no cleaning really, because the person is not eating inside. Restocking usually is done once a shift unless you have so much customers that you have to restock again, even though, that's part of why they get a wage at all from their employer.

While it may not seem that long to you--that is still 5x longer to package a meal than it does at McD's and thus your thesis that they work harder to do an order, isn't really proven.

Then list all the things done that take 5 minutes then, because I fail to see any?


Where did I say that? And--what do you mean?


This is why my tipping isn't based on level of effort, but rather the quality of effort and I don't tip based simply on a server "busting their butt".

That sentence states that it's ok with you to work harder and not receive more pay.


I'm not sure you are aware of what you are talking about or not given in your response, you mention Applebees who sets tables with real utensils while reserving the plastic packets for take out.:confused3


http://content.etilize.com/Large/1011487293.jpg

Something like that picture.

1011487293.jpg


When I say curbside, I'm referring to table service restaurants who offer this as a means of doing to go orders. I'm not sure how you can say you are not talking about that as I can't figure out who you would tip for bringing food to your car if it wasn't those restaurants who offer the curbside service.:confused3

Curbside is BRINGING THE FOOD TO THE CUSTOMER'S CAR, that's why it's consider "CURBSIDE", because they are like going to the curb to bring it to your car whereas if I go inside to pick up my order, I am getting take-out that is COUNTER SERVICE, NOT curbside service that is being delivered to my car.

I don't agree with you--you feel that folks at McD's should be compensated additionally via tipping over some premise that they work harder. Working harder IMHO is not a justifiable reason to tip just on the notion that one works hard at doing their job in a non-tipped, wage earning position.

So when you do a tasks that takes more work, that it should be given a higher amount of praise, which means in terms of this, as far as tipping goes, if you do as I said in Jane Doe's second example that she had a larger amount of work for the burger orders and refills, that you are saying you should work your butt off for not as much money even though you put MUCH MORE WORK into it? WHY? You like doing more work for less pay? Does that make ANY SENSE? I don't see how anyone can feel that way, honestly?
 
Springs1 said:
As far as my argument with stealing goes, it was all about that the person was stating that they had to pay taxes. I don't get how they had to pay taxes on income they didn't receive. The income would be on their w-2 as to what taxes they have to pay at the end of the year.
OMG. You obviously know nothing about the business side of restaurant service. The IRS assumes a certain percentage of each sale. Legally. If nobody tips, the server is still taxed on that non-existent 'earning'.
 
"her" forgot to put "me and my husband's" ? these are not typos. and she says most servers are not mature adults.

The "her" is a typo. I meant HE, pressed r by accident.

hugging a woman we saw.... time to play ....: how do you know this was "playing"? many long time customers, male or female, whatever the age, come to expect handshakes, hugs, sometimes cheek kisses. I can think of a few regulars who would think I was mad at them if I didn't hug them.

Anytime you aren't "SERVING" or doing anything that is YOUR JOB, you ARE PLAYING. Your job is to "SERVE", NOT play around. That IS playing around by chit chatting and hugging someone. You aren't getting PAID from the employer to do that, so YES, it's PLAYING.
 
For a to-go order, WHY? It's the same amount of work or even sometimes LESS WORK than a fast food cashier does.
You also - based on posts earlier in this thread - refuse to tip a bartender who, by your perception, doesn't do much to make your bar order, or at least you strongly resent being expected by society to do so.
 

You aren't getting PAID from the employer to do that, so YES, it's PLAYING.


Wrong. Rapport with customers is stressed upon by many, many managers and owners. We *are* getting paid to "chit chat".

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
Springs1 said:
When someone calls in their order, they get their order in 60 seconds or less at times too. So what is your point here?
Then it appears you'd be perfectly satisfied with food that was already prepared and just waiting to be ordered, from a table service restaurant? Because that's the only way it could possibly ever TAKE just sixty seconds for your order to be taken, submitted, prepared, checked, and packaged.
Yes, all that work IS comparable to what's done for your order in the fast food restaurant. It doesn't matter that you're not in the restaurant to place the order. Its processing starts WHEN YOU PLACE IT, not when you pick it up. That's when the processing ends.
 
I guess she is/was an avid anti-server blogger/poster for many, many years. It would kinda make sense why all of a sudden she showed up, to argue her anti-tipping view point, here.

Has she ever been to Disney? Who knows. :lmao:


.

I am imagining this would be the disney guest who berates Castmembers, from the check- in CM, to the ride attendants, to Mousekeeping, because: "I spent a LOT of money to be here!" (hopefully, they will only eat at counter service restaurants)
 
Springs1 said:
My order is more work than yours is my point for NO tip.
Sigh... you're not tipping for the AMOUNT OF WORK done between when you place your order and when it's handed to you. You're tipping for the OVERALL SERVICE. Well, you're not, but most other people are.
 
IT'S NOT UP TO THE CUSTOMER TO "TEACH" AN EMPLOYEE A LESSON. EVER. That's one of the many responsibilities of management.

WHY do you say that? Customers make service good or bad by the WAY they tip. If everyone had an automatic service charge of 20%(let's say it was a rule that a customer couldn't tip anymore than that, let's say, but they would HAVE to be required to pay that 20% service charge no matter how bad the service is), that service wouldn't be as good as it sometimes is, because there's not incentive to do better. What reason would they care if the food was right or if you were happy if they would know the money will be there anyways?

So you didn't tip him 20%, you tipped him 16%. We've got it. He made a mistake. Nobody is perfect. There's no lesson to be learned. He forgot to place your order. HE TOLD YOU he missed it. He made up for the mistake. He told his manager. You reducing the percentage of a tip where he never knew the original percent intended isn't 'teaching him a lesson'.

The percent going now-a-days is 20% today for good service. He knew he could have received that or a higher tip even. He has common sense and knows what the norm percentage is for good tips. So he knew he could have had 20% plus if he wouldn't have messed up so majorly. Especially, due to his hugging.

He made up for the mistake.

He didn't make up entirely for the mistake. NO ONE'S TIME can be made up no matter WHAT YOU DO, you cannot get back someone's time. That is the truth.

How old are you, anyway??

32yrs old

Sigh... the reasonable diner tips on the overall SERVICE, not the perceive AMOUNT of work done.

Avoiding the question once again. You still didn't admit to me that you would EXPECT MORE PAY FOR MORE WORK in that Jane Doe scenario.

They tip for many reasons, NOT just for the overall experience. The overall experience has something to do with the amount of work they put into it. WHY do you think it doesn't?

Again, all the former server said was, "A couple of bucks would be appreciated". That's it. Not required. Not mandatory. Not asking for the same 15%+ that one tips when being served. Just "a couple of bucks would be appreciated". It's a SUGGESTION, something to possibly put the idea in peoples' minds.

But we don't pay a couple of bucks or even a penny to the fast food cashiers that do the same or less amount of work, WHY would it be FAIR to everyone that does the same type of job(same or less work) for one person to receive a tip for good service, but not the other for good service? It wouldn't be fair to pay someone "a couple of bucks" for handing me that pasta dish at Applebee's when I can't tip the cashier that puts together my burger at Wendy's. It's not fair to tip you, but not them when they put more EFFORT and did MORE WORK than you did just because you make less money from your employer.

Again, YOU don't perceive that the work done for your take-out order deserves a tip, fine. Don't tip. But don't rant on and on and on and on and on and... because you think you're right. You're not.

I am right. The workload is the same for BOTH JOBS, sometimes LESS WORK even at non-fast food restaurants. Assigned work has ZERO to do with HOW MUCH WORK and how HARD WORK certain tasks are. You know that is the truth.

If I am wrong, HOW COME, asking you to name some things you haven't came up with ANYTHING they do more for a to-go order that is picked up inside, huh? Since you cannot come up with anything, you are proving me right, not wrong.

Also, if I am so wrong, how come you keep avoiding my question about Jane Doe's workload being more that she should deserve a higher tip than when she has a lesser load? Is it because as you said:

If I had more responsibility, more duties, sure.

In a way, you have answered the question by saying that as far as I am concerned.

And again I point out that in FORTY-FIVE states, the to-go pay rate is BELOW MINIMUM WAGE. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be that management EXPECTS the servers to get some tips?????

As I said before, what someone makes per hour is MEANLINGLESS to what WORK they did for you.

Mangement expects customers to tip? NO, management cares about staying in business, finding an EASY WAY OUT OF PAYING TO-GO SERVERS MORE. That's what that is about.

Again, when was the last time your entire take-out transaction from ordering to receiving your change - aka the equivalent of the fast food service - took less than two minutes.

When you order it over the phone and it's ready when you go inside, which all they have to do is ring up my credit card and I sign.

You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the time you took to decide what to order,

That's a personal decision and it's NOT part of the service. I do that at home BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE I call it in. If I don't know what I want, I don't place my order until I am ready, so you cannot count that in the service, since that action occurs BEFORE the service begins, DUH!!

then the time involved placing the order, then the time for it be processed.

Placing an order sometimes has taken more time at McDonald's than at Applebee's when I have ordered "AS IS" their pasta dishes to-go.

The time it takes to put my order into the computer, well that's done when I am at home if I get a to-go order and if I don't call it in, that's the same amount of time as it does for a fast food cashier to put in my order, no different there.

I sure as heck wouldn't want Applebee's - or any table service restaurant's - food that was ready for me within minutes of ORDERING it.

I sure would and most of the rest of the world would too. Not too many people like waiting. That's why a lot of people call their to-go order in instead of waiting until they get there to place their order, DUH!!
 
Man, how are you guys not dizzy yet from this thread. Every post is a rehash of something previous:

This is the thread that never ends
It just goes on and on my friends
Somebody started posting without knowing what it was
And we keep on posting here forever just because
This is the thread that never ends ...
 
Yes, all that work IS comparable to what's done for your order in the fast food restaurant. It doesn't matter that you're not in the restaurant to place the order. Its processing starts WHEN YOU PLACE IT, not when you pick it up. That's when the processing ends.

The process I actually have to endure is just picking it up. I am not there waiting for my food. So when I receive it, it takes a minute of 2 of my time.

Tell me HOW do you "RECEIVE" service that you aren't PHYSICALLY in the BUILDING TO RECEIVE WHEN YOU ARE PICKING UP YOUR FOOD INSIDE?

I am there to pick up the order that is already ready. I am not there waiting to receive my food, so I am not enduring the wait for my food at the restaurant to receive a service for it.

How do you receive a service without being there if you pick the food up inside when it's already ready already when you get there? It's a cashier's service then at that point.
 
Sigh... you're not tipping for the AMOUNT OF WORK done between when you place your order and when it's handed to you. You're tipping for the OVERALL SERVICE. Well, you're not, but most other people are.

NO, I am tipping for service I actually RECEIVE. I am not receiving service, because I am not physically there to receive it, then it's not service that is tip worthy. Service that is tip worthy is when you receive service that is more than fast food workers do for not tip. It's a cashier's service by ringing me up, getting me my credit card receipt or change, and then handing me my bag.

When I dine in, I am physically in the building to receive that refill or food or drinks or check, etc.
 
Hmmm - if no-one had discussed the recent issue in the UK the law would not have been changed.

Yes the cost of a meal would remain more or less the same - but there would be a much greater degree of certainty both for the server and the customer.

I can't understand why paying someone less than the minimum wage and relying on customers to make that up to a 'living wage' is better than paying someone a decent wage as a way of keeping them out of poverty.[/QU




well, this is NOT the UK! this is the United States of America. I am happy you choose to spend your tourism dollars here. you know the old adage... when in Rome, do as the Romans...





[/QUOTE

Yes I do know the old adage - and I have been to Rome - the service there is always very good, always prompt, very professional and never obsequious - and generally tips are not expected - there is normally a service charge 'servizio incluso' usually 10%- and you will often find that you receive complementary liqueurs and little extras that more than make up that amount. However I would not go to Rome and do as the Romans do - drive at brakeneck speed on a scooter, spit in the street and pinch young ladies rear-ends as is the custom in Rome. Just because something is a 'custom' in an area/country doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing.



however... even in this economy, theNORM is to TIp your server. 15% minimum. and to be expected as part of your bill.
unless there are mitigating circumstances, sorry, than you will be considered cheap


Yes we do tip the requisite amount in the US - at a Disney buffet our party of 7 (2 adults and our 5 children) are subject to an 'automatic 18% gratuity' (although how they can say this is a gratuity is beyond me) which amounts to around $40 (I would have to work for at least 2 hours to earn enough to pay the 'gratuity'). We were there for probably around an hour - we didn't have our drinks refilled and the server just took away our dirty plates, which we had already piled up - perhaps spending less than 10 minutes at our table. Was this worth $40 - I don't think so - would we ask for the 'tip' to be reduced - no because it wouldn't be worth making a fuss - amd I wonder how many people feel the same.

My point is that I feel the 'tipping' culture is inappropriate in a modern, civilized society - all employees should be payed at least minimum wage - in the UK when it was discovered that a chain of restaurants were paying less than minimum wage with the expectation that tips would make this up there was an outcry from consumer groups and unions and the law was changed.

The uncertainty that 'tipping' creates is evidenced in the previous postings - we should be trying to make life easier for both customers and employees not making it more complicated.

I am pleased you hadthe opportunity to dine in ROME... I was using an old adage.. I don't really care how they do things in Rome,.... unless I visit there.. then I will.

we are not speaking of paying a "living" wage, to keep servers "out of poverty". actually, most servers here in the USA LIKE the system. it i NOTa master/ servant relationship. If servers were paid minimum wage, most of us professionals would change careers. we know, going in, that the hourly pay is little.(as do most customers). we know that we have the opportunity to earn much more, if we are good. we also know that most customers accept, going in, that it is customary to pay at least 15%. (if not, the bill for food would be much higher). we can get less, if we are bad servers, or more, if we are good.
most tipping threads deal with peple who disagree with tipping altogether, and want the owners to pay the servers more, and they don't have to tip. believe me, ervice would go WAY down.. youwill get the people that now work at Mcdnalds or wendys, as your servers. ... not that they don't work hard.. but they are not experienced enough to give you the full dining experience. and they won't work there long enough to develop that experience.. not at minimum wage.

so, when in Rome.. as you have been... do as they do in that country. when in the USA, do as we do here.



also, someone used the analogy of contractors and sub-contractors, regarding food quality. I do agree.. to a point. the server IS the customers only contact. but here is only so much we can do.
I dined at a local restaurant and ordered a medium rare steak. I received a well done steak. I sent it back. the server was most apologetic. (and, with the mushrooms on top, she really couldn't tell).. well, my next steak came out medium well. now, I'm not doing this all over again, so I expressed my displeasure, but ate it anyway. (shoe leather, as it was...I work in a steak house).
the server wanted really bad to get me another one,but I didn't want to wait. she offered hubby and I one free dinner next time we came in (not both, just one), but I don't want to go back there again. I just don't like the way they cook.
It was NOT the server's fault. she was really good, and I tipped her 20%.
 
This myspace page was set up by somebody in the internet world that wants to make fun of me. That is NOT ME and I DO NOT have a myspace page.

If it's mocking you have you ever stopped to consider why they would be mocking you and making fun of you?
 
I will avoid such establishments if that is the attitude regardless if I am "supposed" to tip them or not. I don't have to support a business that allows its employees to suck and will patronize alternatives. With limited exception where it is a monopoly and you have no choice, I suck it up and deal with it. But even where I live, even those situations--the agency strives to give customers a positive experience.
I was actually trying to quote the springs1 post you quoted, but couldn't find her original post.

Maybe the servers aren't lazy, maybe they just know it's not worth any extra service since you're a lousy tipper, and they think their service is better given at their other tables.

If you frequent the same local restaurants often, I could see servers not worrying about you getting great service or not.

::yes::

i've seen many of spring1s posts (she only has 33, and all of them are on tipping threads.) i can't tell if this is really one cheesed off tight wad who hates servers and tipping, or if all of this is done just to rile people up?:confused3
I think it might be both.

There was another springs1 awhile ago, who I'm sure is the same person, but I'm thinking that account might have been banned.

Springs1, I have to ask was that you? It was a long thread of "tips" on how to be a better server.

I am 29 years old and live in LOUISIANA with MY HUSBAND!!1!111!!! I like to eat out and then bad word ABOUT IT and get free stuff!!1111!!
It IS a great way to get free meals and RESTAURANTS like APPLEBEE'S, Copelands and most of all CHILIS!!1!!!!

Sometimes I TIP, but MOST OF the time I LEAVE the server WITH ****A**** BAD taste in her mouth (AND probably in mine, too.!11!! Do COOKS really "drop" steaks?)???!!

I like to harass people online and stalk them on their personal space.!!!1!

I know everything ABOUT the restuarant business!!1!11!1!1 I worked in a donut shop and so I *****KNOW**** EVERYTHING about the service INDUSTRY!!!


:mad:
Sadly, I don't think that's too far off base.
 
For a to-go order, WHY? It's the same amount of work or even sometimes LESS WORK than a fast food cashier does.

when speaking of tipping bartenders, I was talking about in a nightclub,or bar, where they are serving you drinks. It was in reference to another post )this whole thread is not about you.

cinderella, I hate using caps myself. our computer is really old, and my "bolding", as well as my :smilies" are not working. hubby is checkng into a new computer.

lisa/pooh: if you were referring to me, I don't "command" 20%. I do advocate it. even for the many years I did not waitress. It's what I leave (unless things are really bad), and I advocate 20% on these forums. many will not, but many will leave 10%. (like mydad ,who is very generous, and just doesn't know better. I go back and leave extra afetr he pays!) I have great customers, who I love, who leave 15%, and get just as great service from me as thoe who leave me 25%
 
youmight have recognized my post on a total dif. thread, about eating out at Denny's on thanksgiving. on that particular thread, I did say "leave your server at LEAST 20%(sorry about the caps, no bolding on my 'puter) because it was a holiday. most people tip extra for the servers who have the work the holiday instead of being with their kids and grandkids.no we don't get holiday pay) our "holiday pay" is the opportunity to seve more tables than usual, and the expectation that people will tip more on a holiday.
 
Sorry to interfere with your quarral--however, there is one poster who is or was a server who always commands that folks tip at least 20%. She posted it several times on the arrest thread.


.

oh, also, here, this "banter" is referring to take-out orders. and no one on this thread (me included) said they expect 20% on take-out orders. Also, Spring is bascally talking about places like applebees. I donot know if they (or Chilis) have specific "take-out", or "to-go" people. A lot o inepnedant resatuarants do not advertise to-go, but we do it. whoever is near the phone whn it rings spends the time on the phone taking h order, takes it in to the cook, puts it all together, etc.. yes, it might take 7 minutes to get the order to the cook. Ifwe were passing the phone on our way to the bar to get a huge drink order for an 8top, we still have to go get that drink order (it came in first), wait in line at the bar (there might be another waitress or 2 ahead of us, and the bartender does have customers at the bar who ordered ahead of us) deliver the drinks to that table, then go place that order.

however, in deference ot the various views on "tipping" threads, I will say..
15% tip is a good tip. I personally tip 20%, and most of my customers tip 20%, but 15% is still considered good. anyting less, am wondering what I did wrong.. and please let me know DURING the meal. however, even if you tip 10%, you will still get great service. (but, honestly, the customers I know will tip me 20%, if time is short, will get their requests taken care of sooner. f time is NOT a problem, I ill wait on you hand and foot, even if you don't tip)
 
The "her" is a typo. I meant HE, pressed r by accident.

"me and my husband" sorry, still wrong.



Anytime you aren't "SERVING" or doing anything that is YOUR JOB, you ARE PLAYING. Your job is to "SERVE", NOT play around. That IS playing around by chit chatting and hugging someone. You aren't getting PAID from the employer to do that, so YES, it's PLAYING.

MY employer pays us to get to know our customers, treat them as you would guests in your own house. get to know them.. their names, their likes and dislikes. yes, I AM paid my the employer to do that. "serving" is a lot more than just serving. it is "greeting", making the cutomers feel "at home"... recognized. it is NOT playing. these regular customers frequent our independant reatuarant because they are not "just another" nameless customer. they like to be remembered, singled out. treated "special". they return, week after week (even thogh the economy is bad), because I WILL hug them, ask how their sick dog is doing, get a couch pillow for therr sore leg and pull over an extra chair and help them put it up,(cause I know they sprained it 2 weeks ago). bring them their drinks before they even ask (cause the bartender- you don't like to tip - saw them come in and had their drinks ready (yes, I tip her out extra for that) so I hae extra time to ask how their trip toArizona last week was ("and we really missed you while you were gone")
and spend time listening to the details of their trip.
and you know what? after they pay the bill, if I am busy, they still wait for me to "hug" them goodbye, till next week. now, their tble can't be clared off, and "sat" until they leave.... but.. they won't leave until they get a "proper" goodbye from me.
or the other table, already "paid out", aren't leaving until they get that recipie from me we talked about, or they KNOW I know the name of that actor in that movie we spoke of.. and, yes, they want to hug me goodbye, too.

so you stil think the employer is not paying me for this? you think he wants me to "shoo-shoo" these customers out the door? no, they come here for the personal service. they feel special (because they are, and we treat them as such. and they come back.
now if another customer sees this , and thinks I am "playing"... well, in another week, they will also be old friends... I always say... the only friends I don't have are ones I haven't met yet!

PS although I DO check, a few minutes after the order is delivered to see if you have everything you need, if later you ask for more sour cream, or tartar, and it takes a few minutes because I am with another table, you don't need to be eating in a fine dining establishment, you are better suited at a fast food place, where "quick" service takes priority over "great, personal" service.
 
spring: now that you have treated us all to the "readers' digest" version of B.F. skinner and John Locke,(behaviourism theory,ie; her discussion of "negative reinforcement) let me quote Katie:
So you didn't tip him 20%, you tipped him 16%. We've got it. He made a mistake. Nobody is perfect. There's no lesson to be learned. He forgot to place your order. HE TOLD YOU he missed it. He made up for the mistake. He told his manager. You reducing the percentage of a tip where he never knew the original percent intended isn't 'teaching him a lesson'. How old are you, anyway?? end quote.


In psychology terms, you are confusing "operant" conditoning with "classical" conditioning. the difference between the pigeon pecking at the button to receive a pellet; with Pavlov's dog (the bell and dog food and salivating occurring at the same time) YOU were trying to "reinforce" the "forgetting the right order" with the "poor tip". that would be.. the "subject" "operating" on the environment. but, in actuality. but, as kaytie, pointed out, since the "subject"(server" did not know your tipping habits previously, it becomes a case of "classical" condidtioning(ie, 2 things occurring at the same time, .. pavlov's dog...thereby reinforcing THAT behaviour! so... in actuality.. by tipping 16%, you reinforced his behaviour you did not like!
(and no, I am not going to even BEGIN broaching the subject of intermittent reinforcement, which EVEN MORE establishes a behaviour!)
ok....step AWAY from the Psychology Today magazine...
had to throw it in there..what was that you said about servers all being immature , non-adults?
 


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