This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[mjkacmom]

Just because he has blocked what actually happened from his mind doesn’t change what actually happened. Lots of people who leave their kids in hot cars or make a bad decision while driving and hurt other people also believe in their mind that they weren’t at fault. Lots of other people are sitting in jail right now for horrible lapses in judgement. The poor baby is dead because of his lapse of judgement.

And lots of folks who left their babies in hot cars received no jail time.

 

[lorimay]

OMG, that is the worst thing I have ever seen. I'm dizzy and nauseous from watching this video.
WHAT WAS HE THINKING?? He put his head out the window, take the plea deal Grandpa.

 

[tzolkin]

See, I wouldn't consider what the grandfather is saying as "lying". In my mind, lying is willfully telling an untruth.

Not everybody knows this, but your brain takes some time to process to create memory. It does this in the background, you're not aware of it. To go OT a bit, when he was 7, my son had a seizure (not medically significant), while he was at school. According to the teacher, he (teacher) called for small group discussion, and DS just hit the floor. But in talking to DS, the last thing her remembers is being in the cafeteria, some 10-15 minutes before. That 10 minutes is lost to DS, because his brain didn't have the chance to file it away properly. His neurologist explained this to me.

In the case of the grandfather, his brain simply can't/couldn't process the awful reality. He keeps unconsciously "rewriting the script" in a slightly less awful way. As others here have said, he could probably pass a polygraph, because his mind simply won't allow him to see the truth. He could possibly reach the real truth with some kind of therapy, but I don't know what purpose that would serve. The man is already living in hell.

I posted about false memory a ways back in the thread. Yes, it's definitely a real thing and something that we all do unconsciously all the time. My issue is with the whole lawsuit aspect. It's one thing to create and believe a memory that is incorrect in self preservation or because it makes it easier for you to cope and go on with life. But, to me, it's ridiculous to file a lawsuit blaming someone else for something where there is evidence that you were at fault. You watch the video yourself, say "Oh my God, I don't remember that at all. I can't even believe that I did something so stupid. This really is my fault and I am so sorry."

Several people have mentioned not being able to watch the video and this conversation came up very early in the thread about most parents not being able to watch it. Perhaps I'm just not normal, but there's no way that I would have been able to NOT watch the video if this had been my child. Certainly, a video of her falling or impacting the ground would have been perhaps too traumatizing to watch. But a video from inside the ship like what was recently released would have been something that I NEEDED to see. I am a truth-seeker and super rational (sometimes to a fault), so I would need to know exactly what happened or I would drive myself mad with uncertainty constantly playing every possible scenario in my head. Did he slip? Did someone bump into him? Did she flail around and he couldn't keep hold of her? Or did he freaking hang her out the window 11 stories in the air so she could get a good look outside?

And, I love my family and would want to believe them, but I realize that people make mistakes or block out memories. There is absolutely no way that I would file a lawsuit and then parade myself all over the media blaming someone else for my child's death without watching the video evidence to confirm whether what I was saying was accurate or not.

 

[fly girl]

I posted about false memory a ways back in the thread. Yes, it's definitely a real thing and something that we all do unconsciously all the time. My issue is with the whole lawsuit aspect. It's one thing to create and believe a memory that is incorrect in self preservation or because it makes it easier for you to cope and go on with life. But, to me, it's ridiculous to file a lawsuit blaming someone else for something where there is evidence that you were at fault. You watch the video yourself, say "Oh my God, I don't remember that at all. I can't even believe that I did something so stupid. This really is my fault and I am so sorry."

Several people have mentioned not being able to watch the video and this conversation came up very early in the thread about most parents not being able to watch it. Perhaps I'm just not normal, but there's no way that I would have been able to NOT watch the video if this had been my child. Certainly, a video of her falling or impacting the ground would have been perhaps too traumatizing to watch. But a video from inside the ship like what was recently released would have been something that I NEEDED to see. I am a truth-seeker and super rational (sometimes to a fault), so I would need to know exactly what happened or I would drive myself mad with uncertainty constantly playing every possible scenario in my head. Did he slip? Did someone bump into him? Did she flail around and he couldn't keep hold of her? Or did he freaking hang her out the window 11 stories in the air so she could get a good look outside?

And, I love my family and would want to believe them, but I realize that people make mistakes or block out memories. There is absolutely no way that I would file a lawsuit and then parade myself all over the media blaming someone else for my child's death without watching the video evidence to confirm whether what I was saying was accurate or not.

You have very valid points.

Honestly, I really don't know what I would do in that situation. Part of me would want to see it with my own two eyes, but another part of me knows I would be watching the last seconds of my babies life. I don't think I could take that as the last image. It is so terribly devastating, and I can understand why they don't want to watch. Again, self preservation. I pray to God I will never know an ounce of their pain and suffering.

Like @mnrose said, even if the parents didn't want to watch they could have a trusted friend do it and relay it back so they know exactly what happened. You'd think with the mother being a lawyer and the Dad being a cop they are truth seekers too. But I can imagine it is so different when it is your child ... and add in the addition of being under the care of a trusted family member. Maybe on some level they really don't want to know the truth? They can't go there yet. However, I hope they wise up enough to drop the lawsuit. RCCL isn't at fault.

I really don't care for some of their actions, but in the same breath I have a immense sympathy for them.

 

[Gracedis1]

I thought this article was interesting. It does sound like the grandfather initially admitted holding her out the window and losing his grip on her. https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shows-minutes-before-fatal-fall/2685978001/

 

[gwynne]

I thought this article was interesting. It does sound like the grandfather initially admitted holding her out the window and losing his grip on her. https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shows-minutes-before-fatal-fall/2685978001/

JMO-I read the article. It looks to me like the family could use some honest and thoughtful advice on how to proceed. Right now they appear continue to head in a very misguided direction.

 

[sam_gordon]

I thought this article was interesting. It does sound like the grandfather initially admitted holding her out the window and losing his grip on her. https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shows-minutes-before-fatal-fall/2685978001/

OMG... this journalist needs to go back to school and learn how to present what is fact vs what is spin...

Anello lifts Chloe onto the railing. In an instant, she's gone.

If she truly fell an instant after he picked her up, then he stood there with no reaction for 40-45 seconds.

In the clip, Anello can be seen lifting Chloe up to bang on the window, which he told investigators he believed was closed.

Actually, the video does not say WHY he picked her up. He says it was so she could bang on the window.

I can't believe the lawyers. First the one for the civil suit...

He said a screen or steel guard could be added to the windows to keep children from falling when they are open. Other options include locking the windows or limiting them to only open 4 inches. "Last but not least if you're not going to do any of those things, which Royal Caribbean did not, then put a warning," Winkleman says. "If you put that right there on that railing, Sam is going to be alerted to it and we're not going to be talking about Chloe's death."

How about adults not picking children up to the railing? HE. PUT. HIS. HEAD. OUTSIDE. THE. WINDOW. No warning outweighs that fact.

The criminal defense lawyer...

"My client thought that the window was closed," Ortiz said. "Nothing in the video is inconsistent."

.
HE. PUT. HIS. HEAD. OUTSIDE. THE. WINDOW.

 

[tzolkin]

I thought this article was interesting. It does sound like the grandfather initially admitted holding her out the window and losing his grip on her. https://www.indystar.com/story/news...r-shows-minutes-before-fatal-fall/2685978001/

Yes, that same phrasing by the PR police was in the original article right after the incident occurred. I think that's why many believe that he's lying. He had to have said something along the lines of admitting to "losing his grip while holding her outside the window" to the police or they would not have written it down that way in their notes. The "I thought there was glass/thought it was closed" excuse does not seem to be what he told the police right after the accident. So he either subconsciously blocked out the memory and replaced it with this version or he purposely made up a lie that would take the blame off him and aid in a lawsuit.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

I just watched the original La Comay broadcast. It shows full length footage from both camera angles. The head-on view is from a distance and still a bit grainy but it gives a pretty clear idea of what happened.

He first sat Chloe on the railing to his right. After some time of talking and looking out the window, he shifted her to his left side. It looks like she briefly stands on the rail before he either gets her seated again or stands her on the sill, I’m not sure. She appears to be holding on to the window frame with her left arm and he, for a few stomach dropping moments, helps or allows her to lean forward through the window. He doesn’t appear to have his arm around her as best I can tell. I think he’s just holding her at the waist. She just kind of leans, leans, leans until she falls out.

There are so many lapses in judgement and common sense throughout, but even just the way he leaned her out the window is so confusing to me. He doesn’t have both arms wrapped around her in a death grip, he’s not making any effort to hold her close or upright or keep her back any distance, she didn’t squirm, he didn’t slip — he literally just has his hands on her in a normal hold as she leans farther and farther through the window until she falls. What did he think was going to happen? There couldn’t have been any other outcome!

The video is 16 minutes long and has a ton of pauses and rewinds as the show hosts discuss the footage. The audio won’t do you any good if you don’t speak Spanish. The video isn’t particularly graphic but it does show her fall through the window, so I’m not sure I should link it here. If anyone wants to see it, PM me and I’ll give you the link.

 

[Imzadi]

I finally saw the first video. While everyone recounts the same thing, there are details one just has to see to make sense of it all.

Back tracking: The first interview I had seen or read by the grandfather, he makes it seem like Chloe goes to the window to bang on it. He talked like he went directly to her, knelt down and realized she wanted to bang on the glass and couldn't touch the glass, so he lifts her up, not knowing the glass directly above and in front of them is open.

That's NOT what he does in the video. He follows Chloe, sees her go to the glass below. He's trailing about 7 ft behind her. He makes a direct bee line to and out the window above her. It's clear from the brighter light on him as he crosses half way past the bar that the window is open. He bends over 90 degrees, with his arms forward and slides forward so quickly, that there is no WAY one can mistake he didn't know the window was open. He is a large & tall man. If there had been a window there, one would be taking a slight bit of time to gauge how far one can slide forward to not bang one's head on the glass. Especially as the window was angled. He bent & slid forward with such quickness and ease that I gasped. His head & upper torso was out the window.

He never had an interaction with Chloe before he went straight to the window. He looked out for about 8 seconds. Comes back in and immediately bends down to interact with Chloe for a couple seconds. *Maybe* to say, "Let's look out the window." (Just guessing there.) He then lifts her up so quickly and carelessly, that it seems he had the idea already when he came back in from the window. (That's MY interpretation. That he didn't get the idea while bending down interacting with her. He knew what he was going to do when he slid back in the window and knelt down to her.)

The view, when at the window and he bends forward, is slightly obstructed by a vertical, white pole in the way. But Pea-N-Me posted a pic where the pole is directly against the railing. (See below.) So there is actually no question about the distance of the pole in relation to the railing, no matter what angle we are looking at the event. When he bends forward, his hips or stomach are leaning directly against the railing. His head would be out the window.

I said in a previous post that the railing stops drunken people from toppling into the glass wall & window. It is actually primarily is there to keep ADULT passengers back from leaning directly on an open window sill and pitching forward, head first out the window. Fly girl said it's about 8-inches distance from the window. It gives enough distance and height back so adults can lean their full weight against the railing, and stick their head and chest out safely, without toppling over.

When the grandfather leans out at a 90-ish degree angle, with his hips against the railing, that puts the crook of his arms above the window sill, NOT the railing. If he was holding Chloe perched with her feet on the railing, he would have been standing more straight up behind her, as she'd be standing right up against his body. OR her body would have been up against him as he leaned her forward, head first, to look out. NOT bang on a non-existent window.

Instead, as a PP mentioned, he lifts her HIGH, so her feet clear the railing and quickly moves her forward past the railing which he again leans against. I think he either perched her or sat her on the window sill, not the railing, as he claims. They were there for too long of a time for him to have been holding/dangling her out the window all that time, in my estimation. If he dangled her out, it may have been for a moment, to sit her so her feet were outside the window sill as he sat her down on the sill. After many seconds, he even adjusts his stance, lets go of her with his right arm for a moment, and she's still there during that and for several seconds after that, as he didn't react to anything being wrong. Never during all that time, does it occur to him that maybe her being on the window sill, (or having her that close to an open window, 11 stories up,) is the wrong thing to do and pull her back in. After some seconds, he moves forward, then back and collapses to the ground. People in the video still aren't reacting to anything when he collapses???


For those not wanting to see the video, this is the angle the video is shot from. Just more to the left and closer. Grandfather & Chloe were standing at the far window, near the bar, not any children's play area, behind that second set of hedges. Near the yellow caution cone in the distance. You can see the white poles against the railing. One obstructs our view as the grandfather leans to the window. In this photo, it's deceptive how close/far the poles are from the railing.

But, in this photo below, it shows 2 white poles right against the railing. It also shows how far the grandfather's head and upper body would have been out the window, bending waist level, as he was, at a 90 degree angle over the railing. He's tall. And also how high the grandfather lifted Chloe up, over and beyond the railing, and may have placed her standing/sitting on the lower window sill, if he didn't dangle her out.

I don't know if he's blocking what actually occurred. But, in my opinion, his intent was always to perch/sit her on the window sill, not the railing, as soon as he slide back in from the window. He didn't even take a moment to place her on the railing and find out, no, she still can't see anything that far back. It was lift her up, over and past the railing and straight forward in one swift move.

The prosecution would only have to take a picture of a man, the same height & size, have him lean at a 90 degree angle over the railing & through the window to show, without a doubt, how much the grandfather's head and torso was out the window and that he knew the window was open.

If the grandfather is lying, he purposely described Chloe being on the railing, as he KNOWS (after the fact,) that it was wrong to place her on the window sill. Or near an open window, 11 stories high. She never had a chance from there.

 

[cvjw]

Watched the video shot from behind. It is worse for the grandfather. Wish I could understand what the hosts were saying. They analyzed the video frame by frame and visibly gasped when Chloe fell thru the window.

 

[Imzadi]

I just watched the original La Comay broadcast. It shows full length footage from both camera angles. The head-on view is from a distance and still a bit grainy but it gives a pretty clear idea of what happened.

He first sat Chloe on the railing to his right. After some time of talking and looking out the window, he shifted her to his left side. It looks like she briefly stands on the rail before he either gets her seated again or stands her on the sill, I’m not sure. She appears to be holding on to the window frame with her left arm and he, for a few stomach dropping moments, helps or allows her to lean forward through the window. He doesn’t appear to have his arm around her as best I can tell. I think he’s just holding her at the waist. She just kind of leans, leans, leans until she falls out.

There are so many lapses in judgement and common sense throughout, but even just the way he leaned her out the window is so confusing to me. He doesn’t have both arms wrapped around her in a death grip, he’s not making any effort to hold her close or upright or keep her back any distance, she didn’t squirm, he didn’t slip — he literally just has his hands on her in a normal hold as she leans farther and farther through the window until she falls. What did he think was going to happen? There couldn’t have been any other outcome!

The video is 16 minutes long and has a ton of pauses and rewinds as the show hosts discuss the footage. The audio won’t do you any good if you don’t speak Spanish. The video isn’t particularly graphic but it does show her fall through the window, so I’m not sure I should link it here. If anyone wants to see it, PM me and I’ll give you the link.

Does it show HIS head, maybe looking down, his upper body or an arm directly through the window, so he can no longer use the "I thought the window was closed," excuse?

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

The video is heartbreaking but also absolutely necessary in order to expose the lies this family has been insistent on. No wonder they are upset it was released as it blows their lawsuit out of the water. They need to end it now as they could be setting themselves up for a defamation lawsuit from the cruise ship. A juror only needs to see grandpa leaning out the window until his waist to look down/around then coming back in and carelessly lifting up Chloe to literally put her out of the window to see and it is game over for them and their defence that he thought the window was closed. Poor baby never stood a chance! Grandpa killed her with his thoughtless actions and his arrogance at turning down a plea deal he did not deserve is mind boggling and tells me they are after some big $$$.

 

[monsterkitty]

Toddler in swim suit, probably wet from the pool. Guessing the parents had her lathered in sunscreen as well. Squirming, wet toddler + sunscreen = disaster when being held out an open window 11 stories up.

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

Does it show HIS head, maybe looking down, his upper body or an arm directly through the window, so he can no longer use the "I thought the window was closed," excuse?

Worse, so much worse than that. From the video I saw he leans out until his waist so only his waist/legs are visible (inside the ship). His entire torso/arms/head are presumably outside the window because since they are not visible there is nowhere else for them to be. He then pulls himself in and lifts little Chloe up to her death.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Does it show HIS head, maybe looking down, his upper body or an arm directly through the window, so he can no longer use the "I thought the window was closed," excuse?

In the very beginning of the video another man stands at that window with an upright posture looking out. The railing comes to about his rib cage. When he walks past the grandfather he looks to be about the same height, maybe an inch or two taller. So we can assume the railing would hit about the same place on Sam, FWIW.

Like in the video you saw, it appears he leaned far enough forward that his chest would be pressed onto the top of the railing and his head would be out the window, peering straight down the side of the ship. There’s no way I would say with 100% certainty that he was through the window unless I could see it from an outside view looking down the side of the ship, but I’d be comfortable saying there’s a solid 95% chance he broke through the imaginary barrier of where the window would have been had it been closed.

Another thing I noticed is that Chloe appeared to be holding the window frame with her left hand and as she leaned forward you can see her arm bending behind her. At no point (that I could tell) did she appear to reach her hands up like she was going to bang on the glass. It looked to me like she knew the window was open.

ETA: I think the PR authorities are being too lax in offering him that plea deal. This is beyond a momentary error or brief lapse in judgement. He was outright negligent, just a few degrees shy of pushing her out that window in my book.

 

[Imzadi]

Worse, so much worse than that. From the video I saw he leans out until his waist so only his waist/legs are visible (inside the ship). His entire torso/arms/head are presumably outside the window because since they are not visible there is nowhere else for them to be. He then pulls himself in and lifts little Chloe up to her death.

I think you are talking about the video I saw, the one from the side. There are some people now who are saying there is a second video, shot from behind them. I'm wondering if that one too establishes his head, or head and torso, or even an arm out the window.

 

[Imzadi]

Another thing I noticed is that Chloe appeared to be holding the window frame with her left hand and as she leaned forward you can see her arm bending behind her. At no point (that I could tell) did she appear to reach her hands up like she was going to bang on the glass. It looked to me like she knew the window was open.

As she toddled toward the glass wall, she seemed like she was old enough to know the difference of when glass was there and when it wasn't.

It was still up to an adult to keep her safe and out of harms way.

 

[mjkacmom]

The video is heartbreaking but also absolutely necessary in order to expose the lies this family has been insistent on. No wonder they are upset it was released as it blows their lawsuit out of the water. They need to end it now as they could be setting themselves up for a defamation lawsuit from the cruise ship. A juror only needs to see grandpa leaning out the window until his waist to look down/around then coming back in and carelessly lifting up Chloe to literally put her out of the window to see and it is game over for them and their defence that he thought the window was closed. Poor baby never stood a chance! Grandpa killed her with his thoughtless actions and his arrogance at turning down a plea deal he did not deserve is mind boggling and tells me they are after some big $$$.

I think money has nothing to do with this, with the exception of the lawyer convincing them that RCL was the cause of this tragic accident. At the time when this was initially filed, they had not seen the video. I have nothing but compassion fo4 this poor family.

 

[cvjw]

I think you are talking about the video I saw, the one from the side. There are some people now who are saying there is a second video, shot from behind them. I'm wondering if that one too establishes his head, or head and torso, or even an arm out the window.

if you watch the video shot from behind, you see the grandfather stand in front of the window. The guardrail is about waist high. He then leans over so far that all you can see is his lower back and legs. The rest of his body is gone. It has to be out the window.