Third party commercial renters

[Chuck S]

It's a week in January after the crowds left. I know in 2018 and 2019, I could get studios 4 months out at half the places on property. At this point the amount of rental happening is making it unworkable if you don't own everywhere you want to stay and you can't book a good 9 or 10 months out even for off times.

You realize the January has been an extremely popular travel time with DVC Owners, especially seniors, for years, right? Lower crowds in parks, kids are in school, low points, usually pretty nice weather, though it can be very cold, it usually is not. Airfares and car rentals are often lower, in price, too. Many original OKW owners are getting up in years, including me. I travel in January a LOT, though it will be February in 2025, so a friend can come with me. It is ALWAYS busy during MLK weekend in the middle of the month, too.

 

[mistysue]

You realize the January has been an extremely popular travel time with DVC Owners, especially seniors, for years, right? Lower crowds in parks, kids are in school, low points, usually pretty nice weather, though it can be very cold, it usually is not. Airfares and car rentals are often lower, in price, too. Many original OKW owners are getting up in years, including me., I travel in January a LOT, though it will be February in 2025, so a friend can come with me. It is ALWAYS bust during MLK weekend in the middle of the month, too.

It's the same week I went last year and had my pick of places to stay the previous Fall.
Maybe I picked a bad week to pinpoint, I just went with one I knew wasn't holiday anymore - the general point is still valid regardless of whether you want to nitpick about any random week. It's harder to get anywhere to stay if you aren't online the moment the rooms become available and 7 months is iffy at basically every resort. That wasn't true even 5 years ago. 5-10 years ago I could get a pretty good choice of places to stay for a solid week up until 4-5 months out, the exception being the actual weeks of holidays or the EPCOT resorts in the Fall.

But I can rent anything I want in 2-3 days chunks up through 11 months from today, already booked.

 

[mistysue]

Regarding the 2-3 day chunks thing - as frustrating as it is, it's also almost impressive how many of those little bookings are listed when you start looking, it will be like X room Feb 2-5, same room Feb 5-7, Feb 7-11, ect. They're literally booking a couple days at a time. It's really hard to believe DVC isn't participating or fully aware and granting whoever is booking those a variance because it's so blatant.

 

[Sandisw]

Regarding the 2-3 day chunks thing - as frustrating as it is, it's also almost impressive how many of those little bookings are listed when you start looking, it will be like X room Feb 2-5, same room Feb 5-7, Feb 7-11, ect. They're literally booking a couple days at a time. It's really hard to believe DVC isn't participating or fully aware and granting whoever is booking those a variance because it's so blatant.

I agree that things have changed and no question the rental market has exploded in recent years.

But, we have a lot more owners today than 5 or 10 years ago, lot more owners who have smaller contracts because DVC has lowered the minimum buy in so studios go faster, and more owners are renting points out for many different reasons.

As I said, when DVC reviews things they must review it at the indivual membeehsip level and not the membership as a whole.

As posted, the current policy allows every owner to make as many reservations as they want but once you reach 20..whether for you, family, friends or renters…they wont let you book more than that..or will cancel them if you do..if any of those 20 are rentals.

Given the number of owners out there, it would not take long to build up the rental market would it?

Let’s say there were 1000 rentals out there and those are owned by just 100 owners. Nothing for DVC to do because none of those owners are violating their contracts.

 

[mistysue]

Clearly there are owners violating the contracts. No matter how many times you say it, DVC saying that they are going to identify potential problems by tracking who has reserved more than 20 reservations is NOT the same thing is DVC saying that commercial rentals are allowable as long as you have fewer than 20 of them.

 

[Sandisw]

I am going to add why it now makes more sense to me why the 20 reservation limit has never been changed.

I always thought it was 20 in names of others., that wasn’t correct..it’s 20 total. I was misinterpreting that clause.

So, if I book 10 trips for me and my family, the. The most I can book as rentals is 10. After that, I risk cancellation if I book more because some of my original 20 are rentals.

 

[Sandisw]

Clearly there are owners violating the contracts. No matter how many times you say it, DVC saying that they are going to identify potential problems by tracking who has reserved more than 20 reservations is NOT the same thing is DVC saying that commercial rentals are allowable as long as you have fewer than 20 of them.

Except someone posted DVCs commercial use policy. It states we csn make as many reservations as we want.

But if we want to book more than 20 we won’t be allowed to unless the first 20 are only for personal use which includes family and friends.

It even says that the only reservations they will cancel are those in excess of 20 if you can’t establish the first 20 are only for personal use..meaning, the first 20 get left alone.

So this is not me saying what I think it is or should be, it’s DVC actual policy that is currently written in the POS.

People can keep saying commercial rentals are something different, but they are not, not in the eyes of DVC and our contract.

Now people who don’t like the policy can certainly discuss what they feel it should be…but the actual policy is what it is.

 

[Chuck S]

I don't think I want the number lowered at all, and certainly wouldn't set it below 15, as even the few (6) one/two night rentals I did last year (rented points, not pre-existing reservations) would have bumped a 15 reservation limit during a rolling year, counting my own reservations.I can see where someone less than 1,000 points could easily hit the 20 reservation mark, if they rented out 250 or so points for short last minute stays.

 

[Sandisw]

Now, in reading over the posted Commercial Use policy, one thing that was not in play when that was written was online booking.

So, a good question for DVC would be how they review a members reservation history in light of online booking since we don’t talk to a CM every time.

What I was told years ago, is that the system flags it…but that was from a general CM on the phone so they wouldn’t be in the know.

 

[obsesseddisneyfan]

Perhaps limiting LLC's and Corps. Making the names of owners of those LLC's and Corps be listed and correct. Say that if any owner rents more then 20 ( any contacts they own personally, under a spouses name, under an LLC or Corp) makes them a commercial renter.

 

[mistysue]

<snip>
People can keep saying commercial rentals are something different, but they are not, not in the eyes of DVC and our contract.

Now people who don’t like the policy can certainly discuss what they feel it should be…but the actual policy is what it is.

I don't know that we can say that.
DVC hasn't said people are allowed to use their membership for commercial purposes as long as it's no more than 20. When I'm reading it, what I'm seeing is DVC isn't even going to look until you've hit 20. Those aren't the same thing.

I don't know the lowering the limit would really hurt a typical member either. Even if they made that number 10, it just means that at 10 they would start to ask questions. Not that at 10 you would not be able to book anything else.

 

[Sandisw]

Perhaps limiting LLC's and Corps. Making the names of owners of those LLC's and Corps be listed and correct. Say that if any owner rents more then 20 ( any contacts they own personally, under a spouses name, under an LLC or Corp) makes them a commercial renter.

The contract limits the total number of points any owner can have to 8000..and that would include over multiple memberships that could be LLCs, etc.

So, assuming the owners of those are correct, DVC has the info.

The question is, and I don’t know, if they can apply limits across memberships or not. For example, if I own three memberships, can DVC set the limit to 20 by combining all? Or is there a legal reason they can’t.

My guess is they could aggregate it, now that the membership has grown and so many owners have multiple memberships.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't know that we can say that.
DVC hasn't said people are allowed to use their membership for commercial purposes as long as it's no more than 20. When I'm reading it, what I'm seeing is DVC isn't even going to look until you've hit 20. Those aren't the same thing.

I don't know the lowering the limit would really hurt a typical member either. Even if they made that number 10, it just means that at 10 they would start to ask questions. Not that at 10 you would not be able to book anything else.

It’s the clause that says you can’t have more than 20 unless the first 20 are all for the owner and their family and friends?

It goes on to say that if you do, and you can’t establish the first 20 are personal use only, they will cancel those in excess of 20.

If they ar only canceling the ones in excess of 20, then it means those first 20 will be left intact.

Isn’t that telling us that violation of the commercial purpose clause does not kick in until you go above 20?

Isnt that the whole purpose of setting the threshold and leaving the first 20 reservations intact and only canceling the extras?

If they were going to limit rentals to a lower number, wouldn’t it say they’d be canceling some of the 20 as well?

I think because the threshold includes both rentals and personal within the 20, it naturally reduces the number of rentals sinc as soon as you have your own booked, it automatically lowers how many potential rentals you can hold.

DVC does have to find a threshold that is seen as reasonable for the number of rentals an owner can have.

My guess is that this was written to include both in the same bucket to make it easier to define and enforce.

ETA: And with this written as it is, the only owners who would be consistently having 20 rentals on their memberships are those who are never use it for themselves.

 

[mistysue]

It’s the clause that says you can’t book more than 20 unless the first 20 include no rentals.

It goes on to say that if you do, and you can’t establish the first 20 are personal use only, they will cancel those in excess of 20.

If they ar only canceling the ones in excess, it means they will leave any ones below 20 alone. So, an owner can always have a total of 20 reservations at any one time.

And, because that threshold includes both rentals and personal within the 20, I don’t think it needs to be lowered because as soon as you have your own booked, it automatically lowers how many potential rentals you can hold.

DVC does have to find a threshold that is seen as reasonable for the number of rentals an owner can have.

My guess is that this was written to include both in the same bucket to make it easier to define and enforce.

We will disagree on that point then- I would say if abuse is this common, They do need to lower that number. Because people who are not running a commercial business with their DVC account would be able to display that and make whatever reservations they needed.
Meanwhile, commercial renters would become significantly limited and easier to identify.

 

[Sandisw]

We will disagree on that point then- I would say if abuse is this common, They do need to lower that number. Because people who are not running a commercial business with their DVC account would be able to display that and make whatever reservations they needed.
Meanwhile, commercial renters would become significantly limited and easier to identify.

So, how many total reservations do you feel is a good mix of personal and rentals for an owner to have at one time within that 12 months span?

 

[JackosinDIS]

So, how many total reservations do you feel is a good mix of personal and rentals for an owner to have at one time within that 12 months span?

Good question which will vary massively depending on personal circumstances.

Personally, I think it should stay at 20. By way of an example:

I have just made 6 reservations for next May. There are 10 people travelling in our group and we are doing a split stay over 3 different resort (2 week stay).

Add to that the 4 I already hold for this August (again, a 2 week split stay), and I’m already at 10…

I will be booking for August 25 as well which will fall within the rolling 12 month period. So add at least another 2!

12 all personal, and I have rented 4 separate reservations to a colleague and her parents for a AKL / Poly split stay.

I’m no where near a ‘commercial’ renter, but already up to 16 for the rolling 12 month period! Granted, this may be slightly unusual, but they have to take all circumstances in to account and strike a balance. I think 20 achieves that.

 

[sndral]

Except someone posted DVCs commercial use policy. It states we csn make as many reservations as we want.

But if we want to book more than 20 we won’t be allowed to unless the first 20 are only for personal use which includes family and friends.

It even says that the only reservations they will cancel are those in excess of 20 if you can’t establish the first 20 are only for personal use..meaning, the first 20 get left alone.

So this is not me saying what I think it is or should be, it’s DVC actual policy that is currently written in the POS.

People can keep saying commercial rentals are something different, but they are not, not in the eyes of DVC and our contract.

Now people who don’t like the policy can certainly discuss what they feel it should be…but the actual policy is what it is.

The rental policy posted earlier in this thread was, I think, an amended version passed in late 2007 https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...commercial-renting-limitations-amended-to-pos
I don’t know when it changed, but I believe (but am not 100% sure) the current language simply states that “The Association has adopted a policy regarding what constitutes a commercial enterprise, practice or purpose, which policy is a record of the Association and may be reviewed upon request.”
Thus until someone makes a request to review the current policy who knows whether it’s the old 20/12 rule, something closer to what was reported regarding the CFWs & debated extensively 4 months ago here on DIS https://www.disboards.com/threads/new-definition-of-rental-activity.3939178/ , both, or something new .

 

[lowlight]

I have rented 4 separate reservations to a colleague and her parents for a AKL / Poly split stay.

I’m no where near a ‘commercial’ renter,

Did you rent the stay to your colleague for free? If not, are you filling out a 1099?

 

[tx911]

.

Good question which will vary massively depending on personal circumstances.

Personally, I think it should stay at 20. By way of an example:

I have just made 6 reservations for next May. There are 10 people travelling in our group and we are doing a split stay over 3 different resort (2 week stay).

Add to that the 4 I already hold for this August (again, a 2 week split stay), and I’m already at 10…

I will be booking for August 25 as well which will fall within the rolling 12 month period. So add at least another 2!

12 all personal, and I have rented 4 separate reservations to a colleague and her parents for a AKL / Poly split stay.

I’m no where near a ‘commercial’ renter, but already up to 16 for the rolling 12 month period! Granted, this may be slightly unusual, but they have to take all circumstances in to account and strike a balance. I think 20 achieves that.

But they would be changing simply the number of reservations that trigger a review.

This does not necessarily limit the number of reservations you can have.

For example, they could put the limit at 5, trigger the review, and as long as all of your 5 are for your or your family/friends, you are good to go and make more, up until the next 5 triggers another review, etc.

Something like that seems like it would markedly curtail commercial renters.

 

[Chuck S]

Did you rent the stay to your colleague for free? If not, are you filling out a 1099?

You don't fill out 1099s for yourself, unless you are incoorporated and receive the money through the corporation. For instance, Century 21 sends me a 1099 because they manage my regular rental properties, and because the money runs through them. I did not need a 1099 for my DVC rentals because I did not use a broker, I rented them directly, but still noted them on my tax stuff for my CPA, where they were incl;uded in the total rental income on my taxes. And since I had enough write-off already, I didn't bother listing the dues or other expenses for the DVC Rentals, I just counted it all as income.

But to address the rental issue:

As to the number of reservations that trigger an investigation, how many more CMs would need to be assigned to that job, taking them away for the phone lines or membership administration? Would the benefit of lowering the threshold outweigh the management time and cost to do so? I mean, why not have DVC simply manually investigate each and every reservation from each and every member before a final approval of the reservation is given. While you're waiting, you can't enter it into MDE, and if you're an AP holder you can't get your park days reserved until you receive final approval. So you'd go online, make a reservation, but the reservation is not confirmed for perhaps several days, untiil it is reviewed by a human, much like the time it takes Member Administration to load the point totals for resale point purchases after closing. That would fix all the various "issues' discussed on the boards...rentals, walking, and so forth all at once. It would inconvenience everyone equally, but forget about flexibilty or last minute same day reservations for locals.

Basically, how much oversight is too much oversight, to the point it becomes ridiculous and makes the product basically unusable? It is a balancing act, and DVC feels that the 20 reservaton limit is a good balance of time, cost and rental oversight. I agree with them.