Third party commercial renters

[Sandisw]

I feel like the more productive way to take this conversation would be to ask "what are the changes members should collectively ask for?"

Obviously, the current definition of commercial renting is not working because it's too easy to work around.
I would think it would be reasonable for DVC to require some amount of points to be used by the owner themselves within some timeframe. There is certainly a point where so many points are used by "anyone but the owner" that it is clear that person's DVC membership is a business, not a vacation plan.

Or is the more productive ask for something that would help rule out bots, because they are clearly breaking the reservation system.

I think the idea about using bots is one that is a great topic because that needs to apply to everyone and really has nothing to do with the rental definitions.

I did send off my email to DVC about that and that it should be looked into and safeguards put in place to prevent that from happening, regardless of the intent of the owner.

 

[mistysue]

I think the idea about using bots is one that is a great topic because that needs to apply to everyone and really has nothing to do with the rental definitions.

I did send off my email to DVC about that and that it should be looked into and safeguards put in place to prevent that from happening, regardless of the intent of the owner.

I agree. More broadly speaking - basically every department in Disney using websites for online sales or reservations has a MASSIVE bot issue. Every time they release a product it's easier to buy it for three times the price on Ebay than through their website within minutes! They know they have a problem, and this might be one of few cases where there could be a strong enough voice collectively for someone to care.

Operationally - do they really want to swap every traveler's room every other day because you can't get more than 1-2 nights at a time due to the bots collecting them that way?

 

[Sandisw]

I wasn't suggesting adding all of the reservations together and looking at them in that sense. My use of the word aggregate was meant to refer to the entire body of reservations. Only DVC can look at them and identify if commercial renting is occurring. I believe so, but have no proof. You may believe that there isn't, but have no proof.

You're right. We, as owners, have no way of knowing to what extent, if any, DVC is monitoring the activity. You definitely have more faith in them in that regard than I do.

I don’t have faith in them…but I know I have no legal right to force them to prove what they are doing because we only hire them…and our recourse is to replace them if we don’t feel they are doing their job.

I have no doubt that there are owners out there who may be violating the rules..I just don’t think it’s as widespread or meaningful as others.

What I do think, and it’s evidenced by what we see is that there are a lot more owners who are renting points and a ton more now re renting confirmed reservations and thus, the rental market in general has exploded.

So, whether it is brokers or owners? That is immaterial to me…if 20 years ago 100 owners were re renting, and now we have 1000, that is a huge change in the market but does not necessarily mean that owners individually are violating their contracts en mass.

And, I am just not sure what rules can or should be in place that balances our right to rent with reasonable thresholds that calls into question an owner using their membership inappropriately.

I personally think 20 is a good number, but I also think that they could enhance that by looking at an owner year after year as well. For all we know they do..we do know they say they do.

What I don’t support is DVC ever defining what is a violation based on how one rents or what one rents…ie spec rental or rental on demand.

I think it should always be based on a pattern of rentals by an owner, above and beyond what most would reasonably say is too many.

 

[samsp99]

Exactly.

Perhaps a good step forward for DVC to curtail commercial renting is to limit the number of reservations per contract to five in a rolling year instead of 20. That would seem to align with the oft-quoted Florida law to allow owners to rent and accommodate the many owners who only rent occasionally, as is a prevailing thought here on the Dis.

It would be good to see some kind of condition of multi-year percentage of personal vs rental usage of points. Eg in any rolling 3 usage years, no more than 50% of the point usage can be for commercial rental purposes. The idea being you could rent out a year's points, but not do that every year. But with banking and borrowing, that gets complicated, and doesn't stop a commercial entity from buying a contract, renting out the points and then selling it again as a stripped contract.

What if DVD offered a facility to rent back your points to them, under the condition Disney would only use them for rentals within X months of the checkin date (eg 4 Mo) - so it provides a good window for DVC bookings within the 11 and 7mo windows, it would also give members the option to defer or rent back the points to Disney under the same timelines). An interesting twist would be if the payments were in the form of disney gift cards - rather than cash - so they could be used for dues, tickets, season passes etc, but are much less useful to a business (I know there are cash for card businesses). Speculative bookings / rentals would not be allowed. It could be combined with stricter rules on renting via other means.

When making a booking there should be a checkbox to state if the booking is in exchange for money/barter or other form of payment. That would show another list of conditions the member needs to be aware of and acknowlege to complete the rental. Not checking that box when renting could be made to be not following the rules (and therefore face Disney's wrath).

 

[Retired2018]

I have again emailed DVC. After realizing that obviously I had not gone high enough in the food chain. This time I aimed a tad higher. After all, I am quite sure Sandisw has more connections than I would as just a lowly newish member. Please don't let my email be one of a handful that is received. If you as a member want change or clarification, go to DVC, not just post stuff here.

It is probably best if DVC hears from us members of our displeasure directly rather than a member/ dis-dvc-rental-market mod emailing to give a skewed point of view.

Let us members remember that this whole thread has been shot down each time a suggestion or complaint was made. That it was the moderators that were trying to poke holes in each posting as well as at times belittling the concerns and suggestions.

Where the 20 listings allowed comes from no one truly seems to know but has been the line of defense when saying renting is allowed. Really? 20 listings in a rolling 12 months seems ok? Really? If that is true, then please someone post where that directive comes from and lets be sure it is from Disney and is lets say....within the past three years.

Direct from DVC last month they said they viewed commercial as listing on the internet. Shoot that down again if you want,... if that makes you feel better. Renting is allowed as in our contracts but trying to make us all think that putting 750 points on Dis or listing with the board sponsor multiple reservations whether theirs or a individual member is ok, that THAT is allowed? Ya right.

 

[muppets3d]

Renting is allowed as in our contracts but trying to make us all think that putting 750 points on Dis or listing with the board sponsor multiple reservations whether theirs or a individual member is ok, that THAT is allowed? Ya right.

It is de facto allowed because Disney isn't doing anything to stop it, whether it is allowed by the letter or spirit of the contract or not is sort of irrelevant. A rule that is not enforced is not a rule.

 

[Chuck S]

I still believe that any meaningful proposed solution would be worse for average DVC members than the issue itself, or would be cost prohibitive to implement

There will always be issues with rooms that have a limited number, like standard/value/club level and so forth. There is no way around it, and a lot of people will simply not be able to get their desired reservations during peak demand seasons, or the lowest point cost rooms. Which is likely the reason the system was originally designed to have home resort minimum contracts of 230+ points.

 

[Sandisw]

I have again emailed DVC. After realizing that obviously I had not gone high enough in the food chain. This time I aimed a tad higher. After all, I am quite sure Sandisw has more connections than I would as just a lowly newish member. Please don't let my email be one of a handful that is received. If you as a member want change or clarification, go to DVC, not just post stuff here.

It is probably best if DVC hears from us members of our displeasure directly rather than a member/ dis-dvc-rental-market mod emailing to give a skewed point of view.

Let us members remember that this whole thread has been shot down each time a suggestion or complaint was made. That it was the moderators that were trying to poke holes in each posting as well as at times belittling the concerns and suggestions.

Where the 20 listings allowed comes from no one truly seems to know but has been the line of defense when saying renting is allowed. Really? 20 listings in a rolling 12 months seems ok? Really? If that is true, then please someone post where that directive comes from and lets be sure it is from Disney and is lets say....within the past three years.

Direct from DVC last month they said they viewed commercial as listing on the internet. Shoot that down again if you want,... if that makes you feel better. Renting is allowed as in our contracts but trying to make us all think that putting 750 points on Dis or listing with the board sponsor multiple reservations whether theirs or a individual member is ok, that THAT is allowed? Ya right.

To clarify, I do not have any special connections within DVC. I simply keep up with my emails to them until I get a call or response from someone that I feel is high enough.

It can take awhile to get there sometimes. I also have nothing to do with the DVC rental market either. I volunteer my time here on the boards because I love Disney and my DVC.

My thoughts regarding the rental situation would be the same if I wasn’t a mod, and when I talk to DVC, I never share that I am one.

The 20 reservation limit was published by DVC in 2017. DVC news has it. No one has been belittled….we simply are presenting the other side of the coin.

I have spent a lot of time as an owner doing a lot of research into my contract, searching our resources to interpret it, and even talking directly with some random person at the FL timeshare division to help me understand aspects of owning a timeshare.

But, I think we all have a good idea that I do not have an issue with rentals, don’t believe that there is a large scale violation going on by many owners, and legally, DVC can only apply the rules to an individual owner… that any and all changes to my ability to rent need to be in line with reasonable definitions that meet the rights I have.

With that, mod hat only from now on.

 

[Chuck S]

I remember when they changed the Annual Pass blackout dates, I had purchased a Gold pass through AP guest retention during COVID, as I had a trip booked for after the parks reopened. Then when travel resumed, the pass was suddenly converted to a sorcerer pass and not valid for my already booked travel dates, even though the system had already even made the theme park reservation days based on the Gold pass. It took literally HOURS on the phone, with answers ranging from, "Sorry, your pass won't be good for your vacation, you need to buy additional days" to "Don't worry, you have a Gold pass" from first contact level CMs who were not authorized too make those assumptions, depending upon which Cast Member you happened to speak to. After a week of escalating the issue and calling DAILY the issue was finally resolved by a ticket management team member adding a comped park hopper to my MDE account valid for the days the new black out dates would not work and that I had already booked.

So a squeeky wheel does sometimes work. And it really wasn't a complicated issue and a simple solution when it got to the right level of management.

BUT the "commercial renter" issue is far more complex, and any solution must be beneficial to the membership has a whole, not just the people that are having issues booking a hard to get studio. The impact on every member must be carefully considered, and be implemented equally, at the same time, to the entire membership.

 

[lowlight]

With that, mod hat only from now on.

You and I 100% disagree on the rental issue, as well as the walking issue and likely others, but your insight and dissenting opinion is valuable to the conversation. I personally dislike echo chambers and only hearing opinions that match my own, so please keep contributing as an owner in this thread. I am indeed angry over this issue and it’s good to hear tempering perspectives from the other side even when I disagree with them. I know you believe stopping spec renting won’t change availability, and to an extent I agree, but it won’t feel as dirty when I lose out on a room in early December because I know it will be to a person and not an LLC or broker. I’m not a quitter, so I believe in trying to change things even when there are behemoth corporations standing in the way. If I can’t change anything, like I’ve said before, I’ll just sell, but I’m gonna give it a go first. Swaying public opinion and like the PP said, emailing constantly is an avenue to change before going the legal route.

 

[Sandisw]

You and I 100% disagree on the rental issue, as well as the walking issue and likely others, but your insight and dissenting opinion is valuable to the conversation. I personally dislike echo chambers and only hearing opinions that match my own, so please keep contributing as an owner in this thread. I am indeed angry over this issue and it’s good to hear tempering perspectives from the other side even when I disagree with them. I know you believe stopping spec renting won’t change availability, and to an extent I agree, but it won’t feel as dirty when I lose out on a room in early December because I know it will be to a person and not an LLC or broker. I’m not a quitter, so I believe in trying to change things even when there are behemoth corporations standing in the way. If I can’t change anything, like I’ve said before, I’ll just sell, but I’m gonna give it a go first. Swaying public opinion and like the PP said, emailing constantly is an avenue to change before going the legal route.

I appreciate your kind words. It is why one of my posts last night did say that I don’t really have a good solution for how DVC balances the rights we have as owners, against curtailing other owners from using their memberships in violation of the contract.

My main goal, and it always will be, is to me as an owner and that if DVC wants to amend rules, then whatever they do, it needs to be legal and reasonable, and any restriction that makes it harder or worse on owners will never get my support.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Where the 20 listings allowed comes from no one truly seems to know but has been the line of defense when saying renting is allowed. Really? 20 listings in a rolling 12 months seems ok? Really? If that is true, then please someone post where that directive comes from and lets be sure it is from Disney and is lets say....within the past three years.

This was the exact verbiage. It was much more than three years ago, though (but I’m not sure what the significance of three years is):

Commercial Use Policy. The Disney Vacation Club (DVC) Public Offering Statement makes it clear that DVC memberships are intended for personal vacation use. The Declaration of Condominium and the Membership Agreement for the Resort expressly limits the use of Ownership Interests to personal use and prohibits use for "commercial purposes," - a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board of the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or activity.

DVC Members may make as many reservations as they desire. However, if, in any 12-month period, a DVC Member desires to make more than 20 reservations, the DVC Member shall be required to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all of the reservations made by the DVC Member in such 12-month period are for the use of accommodations by the DVC Member, the DVC Members family and/or the DVC Members friends (collectively, Personal Use), and not for commercial purposes. If, in any 12-month period in which a DVC Member attempts to make more than 20 reservations but is unable to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all such reservations are for Personal Use and not for commercial purposes, all reservations in excess of the first 20 reservations shall be presumed to be the use of Vacation Accommodations for commercial purposes in violation of the Declaration and the Membership Agreement (the Multiple Reservation Rule).

Enforcement of this policy will be the responsibility of DVC Member Services as follows. For each reservation made by a DVC Member, Member Services shall determine, before confirming the reservation, the number of reservations made by such DVC Member which are occurring or have occurred in any rolling twelve-month period in which the reservation then being made will occur. If, as a result of Member Services review of the DVC Members reservation history, the reservation the DVC Member is then attempting to make violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the DVC Member has not established, or cannot then establish that all of the DVC Members reservations, including the reservation then being made by the DVC Member, are for Personal Use, DVC Member Services will not honor or confirm the reservation and the DVC Member shall be advised that the reservation violates the Multiple Reservation Rule and the prohibition on use of Vacation Homes for commercial purposes. For reservations canceled for violating this policy, the cancellation shall be deemed to be a cancellation by the DVC Member and the provisions of the Home Resort Rules and Regulations relating to cancellations (including, without limitation, Sections 5(d), 13 and 14) shall apply.

 

[Genie+]

DVC Members may make as many reservations as they desire. However, if, in any 12-month period, a DVC Member desires to make more than 20 reservations, the DVC Member shall be required to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all of the reservations made by the DVC Member in such 12-month period are for the use of accommodations by the DVC Member, the DVC Members family and/or the DVC Members friends (collectively, Personal Use), and not for commercial purposes. If, in any 12-month period in which a DVC Member attempts to make more than 20 reservations but is unable to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all such reservations are for Personal Use and not for commercial purposes, all reservations in excess of the first 20 reservations shall be presumed to be the use of Vacation Accommodations for commercial purposes in violation of the Declaration and the Membership Agreement (the Multiple Reservation Rule).

^This middle part is interesting.

Sounds like they are saying once a member hits 20 reservations, those ALL need to be for Personal Use, and only then they can surpass 20 reservations.

So it’s NOT that they’re allowing 19 rentals.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Huge thread and I haven't read it all. I am brand new to DVC so I dont have a big opinion on this either way. My biggest issue is using bots. If a place has a person logging in and booking rooms just like I have to, that seems more fair than competing with a bot to make a reservation. Side note.. I have seen 1-2 people on FB renting the very hard to get reservations all the time. I was wondering how they got so lucky to snag alllll the hard ones.

 

[lowlight]

Huge thread and I haven't read it all. I am brand new to DVC so I dont have a big opinion on this either way. My biggest issue is using bots. If a place has a person logging in and booking rooms just like I have to, that seems more fair than competing with a bot to make a reservation. Side note.. I have seen 1-2 people on FB renting the very hard to get reservations all the time. I was wondering how they got so lucky to snag alllll the hard ones.

There is no proof that bots are being used, but they are used with dining reservations and genie+, and the indicators are the same with the DVC, so it’s highly likely. Also, that name…hah.

 

[Genie+]

There is no proof that bots are being used, but they are used with dining reservations and genie+, and the indicators are the same with the DVC, so it’s highly likely. Also, that name…hah.

What’s so funny about a vegan or vegetarian in Arizona?

 

[Sandisw]

^This middle part is interesting.

Sounds like they are saying once a member hits 20 reservations, those ALL need to be for Personal Use, and only then they can surpass 20 reservations.

So it’s NOT that they’re allowing 19 rentals.

Yes and no. It says we can make as may as we want, up to 20 and it doesn’t appear to matter if those are for personal use, rentals or a combination of both.

However, once we reach that limit, we are not going to be allowed to book any more unless we prove to DVC those 20 are personal. If any are rentals, DVC can stop us from booking any additional ones until the number falls back below 20.

It certainly does make it clear that DVC isnt going to do anything or flag a membership as long as the owner stays below that threshold.

I think it’s a good way to balance beteeen our right to rent and defining commercial use.

ETA: Which seems to imply that DVC doesn’t define commercial use of a membership until one wants to go past 20, and can’t prove the initial 20 are for personal use.

 

[VGCgroupie]

There is no proof that bots are being used, but they are used with dining reservations and genie+, and the indicators are the same with the DVC, so it’s highly likely. Also, that name…hah.

What’s so funny about a vegan or vegetarian in Arizona?

Maybe it was the lack of protein that didn't allow me to realize how it could be read when I created the username

 

[sndral]

They can not prohibit LLCs or other type of Corporations or Trusts from purchasing. Legally they have the same rights as individuals.

They could get serious about the 4000/8000 limits & start tracking who owns/controls the Corporations, LLC’s, etc. that hold the points & if, as is suspected, the max ownership has been exceeded take steps accordingly.
There is language in the 4000/8000 point limitations clause which states that “use by corporations or other business entities is strictly limited to recreational use by their directors, officers, principals, or employees.” While it could be argued that the clause is aimed at prohibiting hosting a corporate event in a villa, for example, the clause could also be interpreted to limit corporate use to the named categories of people & notably those categories don’t include lessees. Based on that language I’d hesitate to say that points owned by a Corporation have the same ‘rights’ that individually owned points do.

 

[mistysue]

I still believe that any meaningful proposed solution would be worse for average DVC members than the issue itself, or would be cost prohibitive to implement

There will always be issues with rooms that have a limited number, like standard/value/club level and so forth. There is no way around it, and a lot of people will simply not be able to get their desired reservations during peak demand seasons, or the lowest point cost rooms. Which is likely the reason the system was originally designed to have home resort minimum contracts of 230+ points.

The catch is that it's spreading people are having trouble getting so-so reservations, It's not just getting the best ones. For a couple years I figured that it was just a lot of covid overflow, But it's getting worse, not better.

If I go online right now and search for 6 months and 3 weeks from now and pick three weekdays... There are five resorts where I can get into a one bedroom. I can't get a studio anywhere. It's a week in January after the crowds left. I know in 2018 and 2019, I could get studios 4 months out at half the places on property. At this point the amount of rental happening is making it unworkable if you don't own everywhere you want to stay and you can't book a good 9 or 10 months out even for off times.