Third party commercial renters

[BeachClub2014]

There is a big difference between being a commercial enterprise, ANY business is a commercial enterprise by default, and being a "commercial renter" under DVC's definition of commercial renting. And it is DVCs definition that matters, not yours, not mine, not the opinion of any individual.

I can't entirely agree with the first part. If a commercial enterprise exists to rent points, it is commercial renting. I do agree that my opinion, your opinion, and other opinions don't really matter, but espousing our opinions is why the board exists, right? If people only posted verifiable facts, then we'd have a whole lot less to talk about. I believe that much of the frustration with many here is that, by all appearances, DVC is NOT doing enough to curtail very visible commercial renting, which many believe to be harmful to owners. I get that you don't share that perspective, but it doesn't mean those who do are wrong.

As you said, NO ONE HERE knows what percentage of the reservations offered are actually owned by the brokerage, or if the brokerage is breaking DVC's definition of "commerciual renting."

We agree on this. But as the old saying goes, if it looks like a pig and smells like a pig, then it's likely a pig.

 

[Sandisw]

I can't entirely agree with the first part. If a commercial enterprise exists to rent points, it is commercial renting. I do agree that my opinion, your opinion, and other opinions don't really matter, but espousing our opinions is why the board exists, right? If people only posted verifiable facts, then we'd have a whole lot less to talk about. I believe that much of the frustration with many here is that, by all appearances, DVC is NOT doing enough to curtail very visible commercial renting, which many believe to be harmful to owners. I get that you don't share that perspective, but it doesn't mean those who do are wrong.



We agree on this. But as the old saying goes, if it looks like a pig and smells like a pig, then it's likely a pig.

Except, the contract is between the owner and DVD. The only one responsible for following the terms of the contract is the owner, not other outside entities

So, while a broker may be offering a service to owners to help them rent.,.which we have the legal right to do…their business practices aren’t covered by the contract…unless what they are renting are reservations from memberships in which they are owners.

That is where I think some of us differ. While we like to talk as if the contract applies to everyone out there as a large group, it does not. My contract applies to me and me alone and my actions in using my membership is what DVC gets to monitor and if I violate it, they have certain remedies they can use to stop me.

If they want to allow me, as an owners, the ability to use a rental broker, the DIS boards, FB, Redweek, or the local newspaper to rent my points, then I get to do it. The fact that all those spots are commercial entities, doesn’t matter because the contract doesn’t define what means I can use to find a renter.

What it does say is that I can’t turn my ownership into a commercial business to rent out the points I own.

So, going back to brokers, the only rentals that DVD can stop are the rentals that they own…matter of fact, the new language of the resort use plan tightens it up and does now say something to the effect of maintaining a website to rent their membership…so, in that sense, owners of CFW plans could not set up their own business to offer their points.

That is not the same as a business being set up for other owners to use..and, as I said, in this day and age with how much is done vis the internet, I don’t see DVD saying you can’t rent your points via means such as FB or the Disboards. Or FL timeshare boards saying it is reasonable to prohibit an owner from using such sites when exercising their contractual right to rent their timeshare..

 

[Chuck S]

If a commercial enterprise exists to rent points, it is commercial renting.

If a commercial enterprise exists to rent points, it is commercial renting.

But also consider this...the commercial enterprise may not exist solely to rent points. For instance, I am a landlord, so by default, a commercial enterprise. (Though I am not incorporated) And let's suppose I incorporated as Chuck's Rentals. And simply expanded to include DVC Rentals of my points, under three different memberships because of different use years, and also allow 5 of my friends/family who also happened to have 3 memberships to advertise their reservations for rent on the Chuick's Rental website, along with my regular rental properties., when I have vacancies, but none of us make 20 reservations per year, per membership. We would likely not break DVC rules by making 57 reservations each, 19 per membership. That would be 342 reservations total. just for 6 total people, each having 3 memberships...so you see how it could mount up.

Now full disclaimer...I only have 1 membership number, and I only know of 2, maybe 3, other DVC Members in my town, all of them have fewer points than I do, and my total is 345 points at OKW, so none of us are big players as far as DVC is concerned. And I do have rental properties, but I use a broker/property manager rather than renting them directly. But being in business, I can see how that type of scenario can easlily happen, and not technically violate DVC's definition of commercial renting.

 

[Genie+]

Require owners to submit rental contracts..not for approval but notice.

Could they make the renters themselves do this?

I think most renters wouldn’t want to mess with illegitimate reservations, especially when there’s nothing to gain otherwise. It’s the owners for profit that have something to gain with noncompliance.

Make the renters check a box that they have a rental contact in place as required.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Except, the contract is between the owner and DVD. The only one responsible for following the terms of the contract is the owner, not other outside entities

I know that. That's not the point I was making.

So, while a broker may be offering a service to owners to help them rent.,.which we have the legal right to do…their business practices aren’t covered by the contract…unless what they are renting are reservations from memberships in which they are owners.

This is your interpretation of both the law and the POS. Many would argue that the POS is pretty vague and provides wide latitude for defining commercial renting.

That is where I think some of us differ. While we like to talk as if the contract applies to everyone out there as a large group, it does not. My contract applies to me and me alone and my actions in using my membership is what DVC gets to monitor and if I violate it, they have certain remedies they can use to stop me.

I have not said this.

If they want to allow me, as an owners, the ability to use a rental broker, the DIS boards, FB, Redweek, or the local newspaper to rent my points, then I get to do it. The fact that all those spots are commercial entities, doesn’t matter because the contract doesn’t define what means I can use to find a renter.

I think that it does matter. We can agree to disagree.

What it does say is that I can’t turn my ownership into a commercial business to rent out the points I own.

I thought it said that you can't rent points for commercial purposes, are you now saying that the only prohibition is turning your ownership into a business?

That is not the same as a business being set up for other owners to use..and, as I said, in this day and age with how much is done vis the internet, I don’t see DVD saying you can’t rent your points via means such as FB or the Disboards. Or FL timeshare boards saying it is reasonable to prohibit an owner from using such sites when exercising their contractual right to rent their timeshare..

I never suggested that.

 

[Sandisw]

Could they make the renters themselves to do this?

I think most renters wouldn’t want to mess with illegitimate reservations, especially when there’s nothing to gain otherwise. It’s the owners for profit that have something to gain with noncompliance.

Make the renters check a box that they have a rental contact in place as required.

I don’t think they can because the contract applies to the owner, and DVC can only impart rules onto the owners.

That is why I suggested that what DVC could do is require the owner to submit a contract to them for each and every rental….but, I don’t think they can force a renter to verify they have a contract, nor do I see DVC wanting to get into that..that is why they don’t talk to renters because a rental transaction is a private transaction.

 

[BeachClub2014]

If a commercial enterprise exists to rent points, it is commercial renting.

But also consider this...the commercial enterprise may not exist solely to rent points. For instance, I am a landlord, so by default, a commercial enterprise. (Though I am not incorporated) And let's suppose I incorporated as Chuck's Rentals. And simply expanded to include DVC Rentals of my points, under three different memberships because of different use years, and also allow 5 of my friends/family who also happened to have 3 memberships to advertise their reservations for rent on the Chuick's Rental website, along with my regular rental properties., when I have vacancies, but none of us make 20 reservations per year, per membership. We would likely not break DVC rules by making 57 reservations each, 19 per membership. That would be 342 reservations total. just for 6 total people, each having 3 memberships...so you see how it could mount up.

Now full disclaimer...I only have 1 membership number, and I only know of 2, maybe 3, other DVC Members in my town, all of them have fewer points than I do, and my total is 345 points at OKW, so none of us are big players as far as DVC is concerned. And I do have rental properties, but I use a broker/property manager rather than renting them directly. But being in business, I can see how that type of scenario can easlily happen, and not technically violate DVC's definition of commercial renting.

Thank you. This validates my point. If a commercial renting enterprise jumps through these hoops and exploits loopholes to make a buck, then it is commercial renting and should be stopped.

A lot of mental gymnastics is involved in defending this type of commercial renting.

 

[Sandisw]

I know that. That's not the point I was making.

This is your interpretation of both the law and the POS. Many would argue that the POS is pretty vague and provides wide latitude for defining commercial renting.

I have not said this.

I think that it does matter. We can agree to disagree.

I thought it said that you can't rent points for commercial purposes, are you now saying that the only prohibition is turning your ownership into a business?

I never suggested that.

Correct, the contract prohibits you from renting your points for commercial purposes which can be defined as making a business out of it. That is and always has been the intent of the contract,

It is why I said that DVC can go after a broker for renting their own points because they have turned those memberships into a business. They can not go after a broker for helping me rent my points…they can only go after me if they think I am doing something I should not.

And, you are correct that the contract doesn’t define what it means to use your membership to rent for commercial purposes but the contract is still between an owner and DVC. Plus, DVC has defined it and that is the sticking point for some, isn’t it? They don’t like the 20 reservations rule to have memberships reviewed.

That is why I said, I am currently allowed to use a broker or the Disboards to rent points. There is also language that says something to the effect that DVC definition of renting for commercial purposes needs to be reasonable….and I just don’t see how the matter in which one rents would supersede how many rentals are happening.

My guess is that DVC doesn’t define using a broker to rent out points as commercial purposes because it wouldn’t fly….not only with owners but also with the FL timeshare division

And, not all my comments were meant specifically for you but fit in the context of what I was responding to for some of your thoughts.


ETA: I get that DVC could tighten up rules for the threshold to apply across memberships to make sure people are not setting up things in different names, to work around it…but that is not the same as saying “because a broker makes money from an owner that should be stopped” because IMO, that is putting restrictions on my right to rent.

 

[Chuck S]

Thank you. This validates my point. If a commercial renting enterprise jumps through these hoops and exploits loopholes to make a buck, then it is commercial renting and should be stopped.

A lot of mental gymnastics is involved in defending this type of commercial renting.

They aren't mental gymnastics or even loopholes. It is how DVC currently defines commercial renting. And no where does it say we can not use a commercial entrprise to rent our points. Even a newspaper advertisement is a commercial entrprise, as is facebook, the DISBoards, Redweek and so forth. And I seriously doubt the State of Florida would allow such restrictions that would make it nearly impossible for the average DVC Owner to rent our points, since the State pretty much guarantees the right to rent to all timeshare owners in Florida. Remember timeshares are state regulated, and any change to the POS and rules has to be approved by that state division.

 

[BeachClub2014]

They can not go after a broker for helping me rent my points

I didn't think they would or should.

There is also language that says something to the effect that DVC definition of renting for commercial purposes needs to be reasonable….and I just don’t see how the matter in which one rents would supersede how many rentals are happening.

I haven't suggested that an owner be prohibited from using one of these services.

They aren't mental gymnastics or even loopholes.

Yes, they are. We can agree to disagree.

And I seriously doubt the State of Florida would allow such restrictions that would make it nearly impossible for the average DVC Owner to rent our points, since the State pretty much guarantees the right to rent to all timeshare owners in Florida. Remember timeshares are state regulated, and any change to the POS and rules has to be approved by that state division.

I never even suggested anything close to this.

This is one of the challenges with this type of thread and discussion.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Someone who once in a while sells a DVC reservation using a broker to find a purchaser is no more engaged in “commercial activity” than someone who occasionally sells something using eBay to help find a buyer, or someone who sometimes sells tickets for a concert they are no longer able to attend on StubHub, despite the fact that the DVC broker, eBay, and StubHub all make money on these transactions.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Someone who once in a while sells a DVC reservation using a broker to find a purchaser is no more engaged in “commercial activity” than someone who occasionally sells something using eBay to help find a buyer, or someone who sometimes sells tickets for a concert they are no longer able to attend on StubHub, despite the fact that the DVC broker, eBay, and StubHub all make money on these transactions.

I agree. But if a third party rental broker sells thousands of confirmed reservations then its very likely commercial activity is happening.

 

[Sandisw]

I didn't think they would or should.

I haven't suggested that an owner be prohibited from using one of these services.

Yes, they are. We can agree to disagree.

I never even suggested anything close to this.

This is one of the challenges with this type of thread and discussion.

You are definitely correct that these discussions can be so fascinating because there is a wide range of how people see things.

While you and I seem to be okay with brokers existing and that owners should have that option, other do not.

So, it does leave me with this question to ponder. What ways should owners be allowed to advertise and rent reservations under the terms of the contract?

 

[Sandisw]

I agree. But if a third party rental broker sells thousands of confirmed reservations then its very likely commercial activity is happening.

I don’t think anyone has ever said that a rental broker is not a commercial business. They certainly are and make a lot of money given all those reservations that they help to rent.

But shouldn’t each of those reservations have to be looked at individually and not collectively because they are probably owned hundreds of owners?

 

[BeachClub2014]

You are definitely correct that these discussions can be so fascinating because there is a wide range of how people see things.

While you and I seem to be okay with brokers existing and that owners should have that option, other do not.

So, it does leave me with this question to ponder. What ways should owners be allowed to advertise and rent reservations under the terms of the contract?

I have no issue with the mere existence of brokers. I think they do facilitate a service for some owners who occasionally need or want to rent points. My concern is with those that appear to be commercially renting points. The sheer volume of confirmed reservations controlled by some certainly raises that spectre.

 

[BeachClub2014]

I don’t think anyone has ever said that a rental broker is not a commercial business. They certainly are and make a lot of money given all those reservations that they help to rent.

But shouldn’t each of those reservations have to be looked at individually and not collectively because they are probably owned hundreds of owners?

Yes, dvc should be looking at these. That's my entire point. I don't know if all of those reservations, in aggregate, violate the POS and you don't know that they don't. As you and other's have repeatedly said, only dvc can know that. I just want them to do their job.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, dvc should be looking at these. That's my entire point. I don't know if all of those reservations, in aggregate, violate the POS and you don't know that they don't. As you and other's have repeatedly said, only dvc can know that. I just want them to do their job.

That’s the thing, you can’t aggregate the reservations unless they are booked on the same membership because the contract applies only to each owner as an individual and not as part of a group.

What you do with your membership can’t be held against me and vice versa.

And while we might not know how many reservations belong to the same owner, we definitely know that many different owners use brokers to rent.

But, they certainly can, and say they do, monitor memberships against the 20 reservations threshold.

Has nothing changed because their internal review doesn’t show actual violations happening? Or, is it being ignored by DVC?

There is no way for us as owners to know that because if they say they are monitoring, then we have to accept that they are.

 

[mistysue]

I feel like the more productive way to take this conversation would be to ask "what are the changes members should collectively ask for?"

Obviously, the current definition of commercial renting is not working because it's too easy to work around.
I would think it would be reasonable for DVC to require some amount of points to be used by the owner themselves within some timeframe. There is certainly a point where so many points are used by "anyone but the owner" that it is clear that person's DVC membership is a business, not a vacation plan.

Or is the more productive ask for something that would help rule out bots, because they are clearly breaking the reservation system.

 

[BeachClub2014]

That’s the thing, you can’t aggregate the reservations unless they are booked on the same membership because the contract applies only to each owner as an individual and not as part of a group.

What you do with your membership can’t be held against me and vice versa.

And while we might not know how many reservations belong to the same owner, we definitely know that for sure that many different owners use brokers to rent.


But, they certainly can, and say they do, monitor memberships against the 20 reservations threshold.

Has nothing changed because their internal review doesn’t show actual violations happening? Or, is it being ignored by DVC?

There is no way for us as owners to know that because if they say they are monitoring, then we have to accept that they are.

I wasn't suggesting adding all of the reservations together and looking at them in that sense. My use of the word aggregate was meant to refer to the entire body of reservations. Only DVC can look at them and identify if commercial renting is occurring. I believe so, but have no proof. You may believe that there isn't, but have no proof.

You're right. We, as owners, have no way of knowing to what extent, if any, DVC is monitoring the activity. You definitely have more faith in them in that regard than I do.

 

[BeachClub2014]

I feel like the more productive way to take this conversation would be to ask "what are the changes members should collectively ask for?"

Obviously, the current definition of commercial renting is not working because it's too easy to work around.
I would think it would be reasonable for DVC to require some amount of points to be used by the owner themselves within some timeframe. There is certainly a point where so many points are used by "anyone but the owner" that it is clear that person's DVC membership is a business, not a vacation plan.

Or is the more productive ask for something that would help rule out bots, because they are clearly breaking the reservation system.

Exactly.

Perhaps a good step forward for DVC to curtail commercial renting is to limit the number of reservations per contract to five in a rolling year instead of 20. That would seem to align with the oft-quoted Florida law to allow owners to rent and accommodate the many owners who only rent occasionally, as is a prevailing thought here on the Dis.