Third party commercial renters

[BeachClub2014]

And again, pull CMs away the call in phone lines, membership processing (admin) from other duties to do that? Or would you rather they shut the reservation and phone lines down on Sunday, like when DVC first opened, to give them time to do that?

There actually is NO EVIDENCE that they are NOT enforcing it within the DVC Guideline based on the number of reservations to throw a member into review. And considering that even a website that would have 1,000 reservations listed, that is about 3 per week, not enough to have any major impact on availability considering the number of DVC Rooms system wide.

This is just a pedantic response. You're the one who keeps suggesting that this is the only way DVC can enforce the rules. There's no point in continuing this piece of the discussion.

....and again, you have NO EVIDENCE that they ARE enforcing it. Given you refuse even to acknowledge that rental broker sites could be violating the POS, it suggests that we should respectfully agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Sandisw]

Okay, I am tracking. We agree that enforcing rules is part of running the program. My point is that the enforcement of the rules is already in the 12% so there is no need for an increase. Just do the job they are already being paid to do.

Correct and per DVC, they are already monitoring to see which owners are using their membership as commercial entities and holding them accountable (well, that is what the answer I got last year when I shared my views on making sure rules were pro-owner).

But, as has been noted, especially by me, DVC gets to define what it means to be "a commercial membership", and other than the 2007 language, which set it at 20, and the broad examples given in the RIV, CFW and most likley VDH POS's, we don't know exactly what they are looking for when they review and whether their critieria is what a typical person would consider a "reasonable" definition of what makes a DVC membership a commercial entity.

Seeing tons of rentals being advertised certainly has alerted DVC that a lot more owners are renting, so closer scrunity is warranted, and I hope they are doing it, like they have said they do.

Obviously, brokers keep coming up and if they own memberships that have a ton of rentals tied to them, then DVC should be reviewing them to determine if what they are doing is within the guidelines or not.

However, without the specifics, how can one say that DVC isn't enforcing their own rules? Some believe that the rentals themselves, because its a business doing it automatically turns the membership into a commercial one..some believe that adverstising spec rentals, no matter how many turns a membership into a commercial one....some believe using a broker to rent vs. Disboards/FB turns it into a membership that is a commercial one.

Hypothetically, if DVC said to you that the threshold that they now use to determine a membership is being used for commercial purposes is 100 reservations in the name of others in a 12 month period, and that owners with multiple memberships can have 100 on each one, (because an owner can own a maximum of 8000 points), would a broker who has 700 rentals spread across 10 memberships be in violation still based on those hypothetical new rules?

No, they would not, even though setting the bar that high seems to be counterproductive to the notion that DVC should be for vacation and enjoyment and not as a business.

I exaggerate, of course, but until we have specifics as to the definition, and are able to compare what we know to that, its only a possibility. I hope that what I get from DVC is actual language that is clear and in the form of a legal document and not some interpretation that a CM gives me.

Once we have that, then we have a better idea if DVC is or is not enforcing their own rules.

ETA: To the broader point that Chuck brings up that if the current number of CM's being tasked with monitoring this is not enough because owners want to see them make the rules strict, like looking for intent, more frequent checks, etc., DVC won't hire new CM's, they will pull them from other areas....which could impact wait times, length of time new contracts are loaded, etc. Not saying it might not be worth it, but its important for people to know how it works.

 

[Chuck S]

This is just a pedantic response. You're the one who keeps suggesting that this is the only way DVC can enforce the rules. There's no point in continuing this piece of the discussion.

....and again, you have NO EVIDENCE that they ARE enforcing it. Given you refuse even to acknowledge that rental broker sites could be violating the POS, it suggests that we should respectfully agree to disagree and move on.

But you can not prove a negative...without any direct evidence to the contrary. And there is a regular poster on the boards, in this thread, that said his account was reviewed several years ago when he hit that limit, and DVC is saying they are enforcing it. So I tend to go with the poster and DVCs statement that they are enforcing it. Plus, just looking at the number of reservation offered, it doesn't seem enough to actually throw a monkey wrench in to availablity.

 

[Sandisw]

Another point for everyone to ponder....especially when availability is a concern...what stricter rules would people want to see DVC place on your average owner when it comes to rentals?

I know spec renting is a hot topic, but I can't find anything in the contract that would allow them to distinguish between types of rentals. Maybe someone else has found something that seems like they could?

Here are some things I think they could implement, and not violate our right to rent..though I can imagine not everyone would like it.

1. Reservations that are rentals must be a minimum of three nights. Rentals can be made in advance and rented, or rented on demand...this allows for owners who have to cancel last minute to still rent their confirmed reservation when canceling and rebooking would be difficult due to lack of availability, holding status, or expiration of points.

2. Require that an appropriate rental agreement be submitted to DVC for their records (the contract explains exactly what needs to be in it). If the owner gifts a reservation to family or friends, they would be given a guest certificate to be presented at check in....renters would be unlikely to agree to rent if they were asked to pretend it was a gift.

3. Require owners to use at least 50% of their membership for themselves, family or friends, over a three year period....to allow for situations where an emergency might happen and an owner can't travel one year....rentals to family and friends count toward an owner's 50% threshold.

4. Allow owners to rent reservations through any means they want. However, any owner who also maintains a rental website can not rent their own points via their own business. If they want to use a rental broker, they must use a different one.

Now, how do they enforce things? If an owner is found to have not used at least 50% of their points for owners, friends or family in a 3 year period, they will not be allowed to book any more rentals until such time as they do meet that threshold. It would be up to the owner to request DVC review their account to approve the right to rent again...this prevents CMs to have to constantly check and puts it on the owner.

If a guest shows up for a DVC reservation and they are not the owner, and do not have a guest certificate, then renters are asked to sign something stating they are a renter.

Not sure how DVC would feel about this, or other owners, but IMO, it might help ensure more memberships are being used for personal use and not as a commercial entity.

So, what other ideas are out there???

 

[BeachClub2014]

But you can not prove a negative...without any direct evidence to the contrary. And there is a regular poster on the boards, in this thread, that said his account was reviewed several years ago when he hit that limit, and DVC is saying they are enforcing it. So I tend to go with the poster and DVCs statement that they are enforcing it. Plus, just looking at the number of reservation offered, it doesn't seem enough to actually throw a monkey wrench in to availablity.

I've shared my thoughts and perspective and have listened to yours. We just see things very differently.

Enjoy your evening and happy father's day!

 

[GoingSince1990]

Another point for everyone to ponder....especially when availability is a concern...what stricter rules would people want to see DVC place on your average owner when it comes to rentals?

I know spec renting is a hot topic, but I can't find anything in the contract that would allow them to distinguish between types of rentals. Maybe someone else has found something that seems like they could?

Here are some things I think they could implement, and not violate our right to rent..though I can imagine not everyone would like it.

1. Reservations that are rentals must be a minimum of three nights. Rentals can be made in advance and rented, or rented on demand...this allows for owners who have to cancel last minute to still rent their confirmed reservation when canceling and rebooking would be difficult due to lack of availability, holding status, or expiration of points.

2. Require that an appropriate rental agreement be submitted to DVC for their records (the contract explains exactly what needs to be in it). If the owner gifts a reservation to family or friends, they would be given a guest certificate to be presented at check in....renters would be unlikely to agree to rent if they were asked to pretend it was a gift.

3. Require owners to use at least 50% of their membership for themselves, family or friends, over a three year period....to allow for situations where an emergency might happen and an owner can't travel one year....rentals to family and friends count toward an owner's 50% threshold.

4. Allow owners to rent reservations through any means they want. However, any owner who also maintains a rental website can not rent their own points via their own business. If they want to use a rental broker, they must use a different one.

Now, how do they enforce things? If an owner is found to have not used at least 50% of their points for owners, friends or family in a 3 year period, they will not be allowed to book any more rentals until such time as they do meet that threshold. It would be up to the owner to request DVC review their account to approve the right to rent again...this prevents CMs to have to constantly check and puts it on the owner.

If a guest shows up for a DVC reservation and they are not the owner, and do not have a guest certificate, then renters are asked to sign something stating they are a renter.

Not sure how DVC would feel about this, or other owners, but IMO, it might help ensure more memberships are being used for personal use and not as a commercial entity.

So, what other ideas are out there???

Is the “guest certificate” digital, or an actual piece of paper that needs to be sent by regular mail and physically presented? If the latter, are you proposing to abolish direct-to-room check-in on the app?

 

[Sandisw]

Is the “guest certificate” digital, or an actual piece of paper that needs to be sent by regular mail and physically presented? If the latter, are you proposing to abolish direct-to-room check-in on the app?

It could be digital with a QR code, but the guest would need to stop at the front desk to show it, so it would require that. These would come from DVC.

They could still do online check in and go to the room, but at some point on day one, the certificate needs to be presented.

If it isn’t, then the reservation would be marked a regular rental.

If an owner is traveling, these would not be needed.

I don’t think changes are needed because the rental market doesn’t bother me.. but I do understand that many owners do and tried to think of things that would be in line with our contract.

 

[BuzzLightyr]

All owners deserve the right to use their points, and the points that exist should map to all villas being booked.

To curtail commercial activity, you need to reduce the economic benefits, within the confines of the contract.

Fixing the point chart is one. Rooms that can only be booked by a computer script should be more expensive and rooms that have plenty of availability should be less expensive. This alone should reduce the roi of commercial renting.

Offering owner benefits. The way to discourage renting is to encourage buying into dvc. Yes, there are blue card benefits and a blue card lounge at every theme park would be awesome. The other toggle would be parking. Right now parking is free for dvc guests, but if you restrict that to dvc owners and not renters, that would be something I would support.

The other would be a non-owner fee to subsidize dues. If one of the deeded owners checks in, there is no additional cost. If the unit is rented, there is a "resort fee" charged to all rented points. Revenue from this fee goes to support the property operations and keeps the dues low for owners. This would discourage renters and benefit owners.

 

[Chuck S]

But with guest certificates, and membership reviews, will it become such a hassle to rent, or even bring guests and extended family in multiple rooms, will the averaage DVC Member just consider DVC to be more hassle than it is worth, especially for owners who are single, like me, and have no family or friends that even share my last name, and often need multiple rooms just for large family trips? I mean really, If I have to jump through hoops just to bring a large group of friends and family, like I've been doing for years, forget it...we'll go on a Carnival Cruise out of Galveston instead, and I'd just sell my membership.

For a timeshare that sold itself on bringing family and friends, forget it.

Why inconvenience the entire membership at all DVC resorts for basically 1 or 2 resorts that have some VERY limited room types in the first place? I mean, really, the whole problem seems to revolve around the TEN Value studios at AKV, in the busiest travel season of the year for DVC. just do away with that classification and make all the studios the the same number of points there, OR Let DVC use the points it owns to reserve them perpetually and use them solely as cash rentals, or do an addition of a few more value studios which of course, would mean selling even more points for that resort...so it may not even solve the perceived problem. OR offer to build new value studios with fixed week designations and allow existing members at that resort to trade in their contracts for fixed week contracts in those studios for a limited time. There's plenty of room at Kidani and Jambo to do that.

 

[kilik64]

No it’s not just about those 10 rooms. It’s any room I don’t get when I want it. Any time that happens it’s those greedy, rule breaking, bot using, commercial renters that are the sole cause of it.

 

[Sandisw]

All owners deserve the right to use their points, and the points that exist should map to all villas being booked.

To curtail commercial activity, you need to reduce the economic benefits, within the confines of the contract.

Fixing the point chart is one. Rooms that can only be booked by a computer script should be more expensive and rooms that have plenty of availability should be less expensive. This alone should reduce the roi of commercial renting.

Offering owner benefits. The way to discourage renting is to encourage buying into dvc. Yes, there are blue card benefits and a blue card lounge at every theme park would be awesome. The other toggle would be parking. Right now parking is free for dvc guests, but if you restrict that to dvc owners and not renters, that would be something I would support.

The other would be a non-owner fee to subsidize dues. If one of the deeded owners checks in, there is no additional cost. If the unit is rented, there is a "resort fee" charged to all rented points. Revenue from this fee goes to support the property operations and keeps the dues low for owners. This would discourage renters and benefit owners.

You can not legally charge renters for parking when using DVC points on an owner's membership, because the cost to maintain them is already paid in full by the owners. That is why, even when the cash hotels charged for parking, those staying on a DVC membership could not be charged. If a fee was to be collected, it should go to an owner, not Disney.

Comes down to one very simple line in the contract language, whether owners want to agree or not.

DVC, and DVC alone, gets to define what makes a membership one for personal use, which includes the ability to rent and one that is being used for commercial purposes.

The simple answer to all of this is the obvious one. DVCs current definition of commercial memberships is not what some want it to be. The kicker is that DVC has the right to amend that definition any time they want.

 

[Sandisw]

But with guest certificates, and membership reviews, will it become such a hassle to rent, or even bring guests and extended family in multiple rooms, will the averaage DVC Member just consider DVC to be more hassle than it is worth, especially for owners who are single, like me, and have no family or friends that even share my last name, and often need multiple rooms just for large family trips? I mean really, If I have to jump through hoops just to bring a large group of friends and family, like I've been doing for years, forget it...we'll go on a Carnival Cruise out of Galveston instead, and I'd just sell my membership.

For a timeshare that sold itself on bringing family and friends, forget it.

Why inconvenience the entire membership at all DVC resorts for basically 1 or 2 resorts that have some VERY limited room types in the first place? I mean, really, the whole problem seems to revolve around the TEN Value studios at AKV, in the busiest travel season of the year for DVC. just do away with that classification and make all the studios the the same number of points there, OR Let DVC use the points it owns to reserve them perpetually and use them solely as cash rentals, or do an addition of a few more value studios which of course, would mean selling even more points for that resort...so it may not even solve the perceived problem. OR offer to build new value studios with fixed week designations and allow existing members at that resort to trade in their contracts for fixed week contracts in those studios for a limited time. There's plenty of room at Kidani and Jambo to do that.

I really do agree and TBH, the ideas I shared above were only to show what could be done that would be in line with the contract based on my understanding of it.

I wouldn’t want them myself, and I bet you’d have owners outside thse boards who would not either.

I get some want DVC to do more but when the ball is completely in DVCs court, what that “doing more” looks like might not turn out to be what they wanted

 

[mistysue]

But with guest certificates, and membership reviews, will it become such a hassle to rent, or even bring guests and extended family in multiple rooms, will the averaage DVC Member just consider DVC to be more hassle than it is worth, especially for owners who are single, like me, and have no family or friends that even share my last name, and often need multiple rooms just for large family trips? I mean really, If I have to jump through hoops just to bring a large group of friends and family, like I've been doing for years, forget it...we'll go on a Carnival Cruise out of Galveston instead, and I'd just sell my membership.

For a timeshare that sold itself on bringing family and friends, forget it.

Why inconvenience the entire membership at all DVC resorts for basically 1 or 2 resorts that have some VERY limited room types in the first place? I mean, really, the whole problem seems to revolve around the TEN Value studios at AKV, in the busiest travel season of the year for DVC. just do away with that classification and make all the studios the the same number of points there, OR Let DVC use the points it owns to reserve them perpetually and use them solely as cash rentals, or do an addition of a few more value studios which of course, would mean selling even more points for that resort...so it may not even solve the perceived problem. OR offer to build new value studios with fixed week designations and allow existing members at that resort to trade in their contracts for fixed week contracts in those studios for a limited time. There's plenty of room at Kidani and Jambo to do that.

So to you, your guests simply telling the front desk or agreeing that their room is from a friend, not a rental, would be too much hassle to go to Disney with friends? What if it was nothing more than a check box with a signature at the front desk? Maybe if it wasn't done in the first 48 hours the room is presumed a rental and recorded as such.
You are saying no membership reviews, but then ALSO saying they are already doing that so we can't ask for it.

It's not just the AKL value rooms. It's about half the room types there, anything but a 1 bedroom or "garden view" at Boardwalk or beach club, studios at the Poly, and various views at other resorts. I'm honestly mostly irked by the locations I own, hence bringing up those specific examples. The trips I have tried to book at 11 months I've been having issues, then I also have frustration about looking into using SAP 6 or 7 months out and nowhere we would want to stay being open without room hopping every few days. The number of little 1-2 night rooms booked to rent out far in advance specifically for rentals stop people from getting a room for more than a couple nights at most DVC resorts these days. Yes, I can waitlist and stalk the site, but I really shouldn't have to do that for every single trip. Not just at popular times, and it's a growing issue that has been getting worse.

It's better to ask for reforms or at least brainstorm ideas of what could be better before it becomes completely impossible than sit back and go "but it hasn't stopped ChuckS from getting his room yet, so nobody should care"

 

[GoingSince1990]

So to you, your guests simply telling the front desk or agreeing that their room is from a friend, not a rental, would be too much hassle to go to Disney with friends? What if it was nothing more than a check box with a signature at the front desk? Maybe if it wasn't done in the first 48 hours the room is presumed a rental and recorded as such.
You are saying no membership reviews, but then ALSO saying they are already doing that so we can't ask for it.

It's not just the AKL value rooms. It's about half the room types there, anything but a 1 bedroom or "garden view" at Boardwalk or beach club, studios at the Poly, and various views at other resorts. I'm honestly mostly irked by the locations I own, hence bringing up those specific examples. The trips I have tried to book at 11 months I've been having issues, then I also have frustration about looking into using SAP 6 or 7 months out and nowhere we would want to stay being open without room hopping every few days. The number of little 1-2 night rooms booked to rent out far in advance specifically for rentals stop people from getting a room for more than a couple nights at most DVC resorts these days. Yes, I can waitlist and stalk the site, but I really shouldn't have to do that for every single trip. Not just at popular times, and it's a growing issue that has been getting worse.

It's better to ask for reforms or at least brainstorm ideas of what could be better before it becomes completely impossible than sit back and go "but it hasn't stopped ChuckS from getting his room yet, so nobody should care"

I bought into DVC expecting to book at 11 months, and if I’m looking at 6 months out, I’m delighted if anything at all is available, and would happily stay at literally any DVC resort. Maybe I am too easy to please.

 

[mistysue]

I bought into DVC expecting to book at 11 months, and if I’m looking at 6 months out, I’m delighted if anything at all is available, and would happily stay at literally any DVC resort. Maybe I am too easy to please.

We bought knowing it was typical to still be able to book up to 4-5 months out.

 

[Chuck S]

Oh please, I've gotten studios at the poly for a week at less than 6 months out,.

Nor am I saying NO MEMBERSHIP reviews. I'm quite happy with the current review system guidelines. Nor do I think the extra steps of getting guest certificates should be required, especially in a timeshare that was sold as a way to share the magic with friends and family. Like it or not. owners have the right to book reservations and use them as they wish, whether it be for themselves, friends and family, or renting them, up to the current designated definition of "Commercial Use."

Even OKW will run out of studios in the most popular travel season. So I work with system, and either book in a lower demand season, if I want a studio, or I book a one bedroom, In fact, I just got back from a solo one bedrooom trip. Shortages are what happen when there are too many owners with such small contracts they can not be flexible on their dates and room type. I've said it before, DVC should never have sold contracts smaller than the original number of points the system was initially designed for, and should never have allowed smaller add on contracts to be sold off via resale separately from the main contracts.

So the truth is, there are reservations available most of the time, just not during the most popular times, and that will be a problem that will always exist in a flexible point based timeshare. Again, I'd suggest have DVC add on to the resort with a few more studios that are fixed week, and offering to exchange current owners contracts to fixed weeks before the points that represent those new units go on sale to everyone else.

And the numbers really don't add up to blame renting as the sole cause of lack of availablity over seasonal demand. Even if a commercial renter were able to book 4 rentals a week, that is 208 reservations over the course of a year, compare 208 to the 2297 studios available, just at the WDW resorts currently, with more being added all the time. And remember, not all of those reservations booked just for rentals would be for studios.

 

[Chuck S]

We bought knowing it was typical to still be able to book up to 4-5 months out.

It is still possible to book in the 4 to 6 month range. I've booked a standard view studio at AKV at 6 months.

 

[tx911]

All I want is for all DVC owner's to be on a level playing field. At 11 months, 7 months, and every month in between.

In that vein, I hope they can find some way to eliminate or at least markedly reduce commercial renting, walking reservations, and anything else that gives non-uniform advantage or disadvantage to a portion of the membership. I'm just not convinced they really want to.

 

[Chuck S]

All I want is for all DVC owner's to be on a level playing field. At 11 months, 7 months, and every month in between.

In that vein, I hope they can find some way to eliminate or at least markedly reduce commercial renting, walking reservations, and anything else that gives non-uniform advantage or disadvantage to a portion of the membership. I'm just not convinced they really want to.

Remember, in the past, Member Services recommended walking reservations. so I seriously doubt they will curtail the practice.

 

[mistysue]

It is still possible to book in the 4 to 6 month range. I've booked a standard view studio at AKV at 6 months.

I get it, you don't think there's a problem because you didn't have trouble the last time you tried.

I am telling you that I have been having trouble looking at times that are not popular times And you are essentially responding by telling me that no I'm not.