The VGF 2 pricing thread

[KAT4DISNEY]

I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, but there should be no difference at all. The POS makes it clear that (1) our points represent our % ownership in the resort, and (2) point charts (ie, "point price to book a room") represent the total cost of booking all rooms in the resort in a given year. Thus, sales points = total points on charts. That was the whole reason Disney has had to amend it's point charts... three times now in the past few years? Because they kept trying to make changes that would inflate the total # of points on the point charts beyond the total points of the resort (beyond the normal calendar changes) and owners noticed and raised it as an issue.

DVC managed to hit on a couple of issues with their reallocations attempts. One as you mention is that they were increasing, sometimes substantially, the points required to book a resort compared to what was sold. But a second question was if they could do something like allocate points from 2BR's to 1BR's etc which they also did. Several people including myself do not feel that is allowable either. They can shift they points within studios themselves or 1BR's themselves but not villa size to villa size. The POS states units and that's where looking at the declarations of units starts coming up as they tend to be a combination of 2BR's, dedicated studios and 1BR's if the resort has them and then GV's or Cabins/bungalows thrown in.

 

[JETSDAD]

DVC managed to hit on a couple of issues with their reallocations attempts. One as you mention is that they were increasing, sometimes substantially, the points required to book a resort compared to what was sold. But a second question was if they could do something like allocate points from 2BR's to 1BR's etc which they also did. Several people including myself do not feel that is allowable either. They can shift they points within studios themselves or 1BR's themselves but not villa size to villa size. The POS states units and that's where looking at the declarations of units starts coming up as they tend to be a combination of 2BR's, dedicated studios and 1BR's if the resort has them and then GV's or Cabins/bungalows thrown in.

I think they can move between room sizes as long as the entire unit still stays within the points for the given unit. That can get very tricky of course especially when units are made up of differing groupings of room sizes. This also requires a resort where units do have different room sizes within them.

 

[davidl81]

RIV resale is a few contracts, and yea, the spread is low. IMO, the reason for that is the resale restrictions, which makes direct less appealing, and that the price jump for RIV most predicted hasn't happened. Pick any other resort and Disney holds the spread. Well, except poor Aulani, but I'm not supposed to talk about that.

So RIV has a smaller gap of resale to direct because RIV resale points are restricted? That makes 0 sense. If anything the restrictions would make resale points significantly less valuable than direct points and only increase the spread in cost between resale and direct, not shrink it.
And I just bought Aulani direct points for $133 pp. Resale is at 125-140. Your $70 gap is not at all consistent at active resorts. You can’t use sold out resorts as your example as DVC prices those very high because of the very limited inventory.

 

[RoseGold]

So RIV has a smaller gap of resale to direct because RIV resale points are restricted? That makes 0 sense. If anything the restrictions would make resale points significantly less valuable than direct points and only increase the spread in cost between resale and direct, not shrink it.

Plenty of people have had doubts or even refused to buy RIV direct because of the restrictions. So, yea, buying it direct is a different thing. And, well, poor Aulani...

Who cares about the active resorts. VGF isn't in the category of struggling Aulani and locked-down RIV. It's flagship, competing with monorail, because that's what it is.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think they can move between room sizes as long as the entire unit still stays within the points for the given unit. That can get very tricky of course especially when units are made up of differing groupings of room sizes. This also requires a resort where units do have different room sizes within them.

Agreed and that's the issue. I haven't run across a resort that has the exact same villa allocation in all units. Nor have I looked at them all so it might exist but it doesn't at BWV, VWL and BLT nor do I think it exists at VGF but am not 100%.

 

[Lorana]

I think they can move between room sizes as long as the entire unit still stays within the points for the given unit. That can get very tricky of course especially when units are made up of differing groupings of room sizes. This also requires a resort where units do have different room sizes within them.

Agreed and that's the issue. I haven't run across a resort that has the exact same villa allocation in all units. Nor have I looked at them all so it might exist but it doesn't at BWV, VWL and BLT nor do I think it exists at VGF but am not 100%.

I have obviously not done a deep dive of this, but I don't think they can feasibly allocate among villa types simply because every unit is made of a different combination of villa types, and so making a shift between villa types is going to affect each unit differently. I could be wrong about this, of course, but it does feel like a bit of a bait-and-switch to sell a resort with a specific # of points allocated per year to studios (for example) and then years later, decide to "off-load" a bunch of points from 2BRs to increase the points allocated to studios. And maybe that's not illegal, and maybe it doesn't technical violate the POS (though I feel like the intention of the wording is that it is not permissible), but it certainly falls into immoral and not in the best interest of owners, in my mind, and per the POS, changes are supposed to be made in our interest. Do FL Timeshare laws have anything to say about this topic?

 

[RoseGold]

I could be wrong about this, of course, but it does feel like a bit of a bait-and-switch to sell a resort with a specific # of points allocated per year to studios (for example) and then years later, decide to "off-load" a bunch of points from 2BRs to increase the points allocated to studios. And maybe that's not illegal, and maybe it doesn't technical violate the POS (though I feel like the intention of the wording is that it is not permissible), but it certainly falls into immoral and not in the best interest of owners, in my mind, and per the POS, changes are supposed to be made in our interest. Do FL Timeshare laws have anything to say about this topic?

I thought they could? Like how the OKW GVs have been going up and up.

 

[JETSDAD]

I thought they could? Like how the OKW GVs have been going up and up.

They haven't been going up and up.

 

[Sandisw]

I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, but there should be no difference at all. The POS makes it clear that (1) our points represent our % ownership in the resort, and (2) point charts (ie, "point price to book a room") represent the total cost of booking all rooms in the resort in a given year. Thus, sales points = total points on charts. That was the whole reason Disney has had to amend it's point charts... three times now in the past few years? Because they kept trying to make changes that would inflate the total # of points on the point charts beyond the total points of the resort (beyond the normal calendar changes) and owners noticed and raised it as an issue.

What you own never changes, that is true. It’s a % of a unit, not the resort though as in the case with VGF now. More points will change % ownership across the entire resort. It’s also why people can have the same number of points but the % is different. When I owned by 150 BWV points, my deeded interest was actually different because the actual unit was a different size.

Since owners are not limited in a points based timeshare to staying in the exact unit your points belong to so, it is more about every unit across the entire resort having a total number of points when it comes to how to book all the rooms,

Once sold, it doesn’t really matter if the studio is 10 points a night and the 1 bedroom is 20 points a night or they change it and make it 13 and 17…it still adds to 30 points, which is how it was sold and deeded.

So, they can’t sell more than 30 points total for those two units, but I have not found in my limited research anything that says it has to stay 20 and 10.

Thar was the point I was making in reference to shifting points across room size.. So, once the VGf2 points are added to the same resort as VGF1, they may have the ability, like they did with the treehouses, to shift points between the two buildings

 

[JETSDAD]

What you own never changes, that is true. But, owners are not limited in a points based timeshare to staying in the exact unit your points belong to so it is about every unit across the entire resort having a total number of points to book all the rooms,

Once sold, it doesn’t really matter if the studio is 10 points a night and the 1 bedroom is 20 points a night or they change it and make it 13 and 17…it still adds to 30 points, which is how it was sold and deeded.

So, they can’t sell more than 30 points total for those two units, but I have not found in my limited research anything that says it has to stay 20 and 10.

Thar was the point I was making in reference to shifting points across room size.. So, once the VGf2 points are added to the same resort as VGF1, they may have the ability, like they did with the treehouses, to shift points between the two buildings

But those would be different units and the points within each unit aren't supposed to change (yes, they have and continue to do that).

 

[Sandisw]

What you own never changes, that is true. But, owners are not limited in a points based timeshare to staying in the exact unit your points belong to so it is about every unit across the entire resort having a total number of points to book all the rooms,

Once sold, it doesn’t really matter if the studio is 10 points a night and the 1 bedroom is 20 points a night or they change it and make it 13 and 17…it still adds to 30 points, which is how it was sold and deeded.

So, they can’t sell more than 30 points total for those two units, but I have not found in my limited research anything that says it has to stay 20 and 10.

Thar was the point I was making in reference to shifting points across room size.. So, once the VGf2 points are added to the same resort as VGF1, they may have the ability, like they did with the treehouses, to shift points between the two buildings

But those would be different units and the points within each unit aren't supposed to change (yes, they have and continue to do that).

But, that is what I am not 100% sure of In all of this. They can’t change in terms of what has been assigned for sale. But as my example shows, changing where they are assigned for booking doesn’t change the totals in the end.

I admit I have not done enough to find a clear cut answer within FL timeshare law, etc, but one aspect of it does discuss total points for sale and now it needs to be determined.

And, yes, the POS discusses up and down having to balance, but again, not convinced there is enough info to say for sure that means no crossing of buildings or units when creating the charts.

The good news with the 2023 charts is they have now clustered Easter back into flopping between two seasons, like it always did when there were 5 travel periods. That makes what happened in 2022 charts less likely to occur again.

 

[DVCsloth]

Not very happy with Disney adding this to the same condo association. Not sure how they can get away with making such a drastic change to the overall balance of the resort.
I'm sure we'll make the best of it or sell our points if becomes too difficult to book 1 BR.

 

[JETSDAD]

Not very happy with Disney adding this to the same condo association. Not sure how they can get away with making such a drastic change to the overall balance of the resort.
I'm sure we'll make the best of it or sell our points if becomes too difficult to book 1 BR.

I can't see many people buying VGF to specifically book 1BR's when they are already easy to book for non-owners there at 7 months. If I wanted to book 1BR's at VGF I would just buy cheaper points elsewhere.

 

[DVCsloth]

I can't see many people buying VGF to specifically book 1BR's when they are already easy to book for non-owners there at 7 months. If I wanted to book 1BR's at VGF I would just buy cheaper points elsewhere.

Pre Covid 1 BR standard view were not easy to book at 7 months especially early December. The resort is going to be way out of balance adding 2 million Studio points.

 

[Sandisw]

Not very happy with Disney adding this to the same condo association. Not sure how they can get away with making such a drastic change to the overall balance of the resort.
I'm sure we'll make the best of it or sell our points if becomes too difficult to book 1 BR.

They expressly have the right to expand a resort as well as never build all that is planned...what happened with VB. I do agree it changes the dynamic of things for those who bought originally knowing it was a small resort.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out but I agree it is going to put pressure on the 1 and 2 bedrooms. However, with more studios, some owners who were forced into the 1 bedrooms because studios were gone have more options, so maybe the increased pressure will be offset with those going for the studios and it won't be so bad.

 

[Paul Stupin]

The point chart released yesterday surprised me. Equal to existing studios plus a new theme park view with a slight surcharge!

This is an excellent product at a reasonable chart. Looks like we are on track for $275 IMO. Maybe higher. DVC can sell the Jiminy out of this.

Not sure how you're equating a reasonable point chart with a monumentally high potential per point cost. But what if neither of us are right? What if the price is in the middle? (But I don't think it will be!)

 

[Paul Stupin]

Plenty of people have had doubts or even refused to buy RIV direct because of the restrictions. So, yea, buying it direct is a different thing. And, well, poor Aulani...

Who cares about the active resorts. VGF isn't in the category of struggling Aulani and locked-down RIV. It's flagship, competing with monorail, because that's what it is.

Would it be possible to at least slightly reduce the nonstop negativity re: Aulani? Of course everyone is entitled to express their opinion, but I've found that, for me, support and enthusiasm on these boards is always more appreciated. Maybe just start an anti Aulani thread, so people who are interested can read?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

, they may have the ability, like they did with the treehouses, to shift points between the two buildings

Don't confuse a case of DVC doing something with having the legal ability to do it. I'd say it's just a case of nobody bringing a legal challenge. Without something in the POS, which is there, it would allow them to do what you are referencing with VGF. Add on additional units, make them different and higher in points and then shift points to the existing rooms. It benefits nobody except themselves in sales and is harmful to existing owners.

 

[Sandisw]

Don't confuse a case of DVC doing something with having the legal ability to do it. I'd say it's just a case of nobody bringing a legal challenge. Without something in the POS, which is there, it would allow them to do what you are referencing with VGF. Add on additional units, make them different and higher in points and then shift points to the existing rooms. It benefits nobody except themselves in sales and is harmful to existing owners.

That is why I said I can't say one way or the other if what they did is legal or not. I have not done enough research to form a definite conclusion. It may or may not have been legal in the way it was handled with the treehouses. It may very well be that it wasn't challenged heavy enough. However, I personally don't have enough information to say it should not have been done.

 

[ScubaTime]

when VGF2 opens will Disney offer guaranteed week options with direct sales? Just shopping around for some guaranteed week contracts but if VGF2 has them available when they launch we might go direct