The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Maggie'sMom]

People said the same thing about masks. That places like Disney would never require them. Stores and governments wouldn’t require them. Heck I remember people saying temperature checks would not even happen. Now we are kicking screaming autistic 2 year olds off airplanes and everyone shrugs their shoulders.

So I’m sorry. I don’t trust anyone anymore. If you don’t oppose these vaccine passports they will be required everywhere. This is why the Florida legislature made the law. Someone needs to draw a line. Enough is enough.

I never once thought or heard people say that Disney, stores, and government offices wouldnt require masks or temperature checks, and I live in a red state. And I've never understood people's irrational opposition to masks. It's a simple thing that we can all do to help slow the spread.

I do think 2 year olds is a little young for masks. I think it should be 3 and up. But rules are rules, and you have to practice masks with children, especially children with special needs, before putting them in a situation where it's required. Before you say I don't understand children with autism, I'm the mom to a 17 year old with autism and severe sensory issues. It took a few weeks, but she aclimated to wearing a mask well enough that she sometimes forgets to take it off when she no longer needs it.

I have seen no indications that vaccine passports would be required everywhere, but I do think they make sense for international travel, which of course includes cruises.

So again, you are employing hyperbole and trying to pass it off as fact.

 

[tink2424]

I'm not going to get into an argument about vaccination because studies show that arguing with people hesitant on the vaccine only makes them more hesitant. Get it, don't get it. Whatever.

Factually, though, the mRNA vaccine technique was developed to combat SARS. The reason it didn't make it to deployment is because SARS was contained by traditional isolation techinques.
The SARS mRNA vaccines were not used because we no longer needed them.

There are other viruses besides SARS...

 

[tink2424]

Many Covid-19 treatments have been studied and continue to be studied. The existence of or the hope for treatments does not eliminate the benefit of vaccines. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Also, I'm a bit baffled with the opinion that vaccines are too fast and need to be studied more, but somehow treatments are A-OKAY right now.

The problem is that vaccines are not good for EVERYONE just like drugs are not good for EVERYONE. We are bio-individual and as such we should be treated that way. This isn't a one size fits all approach. And it isn't that if you get COVID you are going to die or have a bad outcome. And yes some of these treatments we have learned really cut the risk of serious outcomes. So NO, not everyone should get the vaccines.

Also, a lot of these drugs have been used in other indications and we have a very good idea of the safety profile and which types of people it does not work for. So these decisions should really be made taking everything into consideration.

 

[tink2424]

Vaccines being forced is nothing new. Want to go to school (grade school, high school, college), there are vaccine requirements. I remember being marched through the Armory in college to get the meningitis vaccine and after that it was required for incoming freshman. When I travelled globally for work, I kept a vaccine card in my passport for when I went to countries that wanted proof of vaccination. It will be new for some private company activities to require it, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. In fact these activities are probably not as critical so the ones I listed above, so you actually have even more choice to not get vaccinated and not participate in those activities.

There are also exemptions for all of those situations. We still need to have exemptions to allow for people to not be FORCED to take something that is going to harm them. And we KNOW it harms SOME people. So no, as adults we are generally not FORCED to have any vaccines. And even children have exemptions based on different criteria.

 

[tink2424]

People said the same thing about masks. That places like Disney would never require them. Stores and governments wouldn’t require them. Heck I remember people saying temperature checks would not even happen. Now we are kicking screaming autistic 2 year olds off airplanes and everyone shrugs their shoulders.

So I’m sorry. I don’t trust anyone anymore. If you don’t oppose these vaccine passports they will be required everywhere. This is why the Florida legislature made the law. Someone needs to draw a line. Enough is enough.

Exactly! Again this isn't a one size fits all proposition here. There are many factors to consider which includes past infections. I have had COVID and therefore I don't feel I need a vaccine. I had a robust response and an antibody test confirms I had a good response. This is a good article that I read on how people that have had COVID are already protected. That means I don't need to get an experimental treatment that may harm me to protect me from something I already have protection from.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/04/previous-covid-19-may-cut-risk-reinfection-84

 

[princessmommyx3]

I And I've never understood people's irrational opposition to masks. It's a simple thing that we can all do to help slow the spread.

I don’t think that most people have a problem with masks when it makes sense, such as indoors when close to others. I think the problem that most “anti-maskers” have is that it has snowballed to so much more. Now people are shamed for not wearing masks outdoors, even when nowhere near other people. For example, my daughter plays softball and her team has played other teams whose players are required to wear masks even when on defense. There are not many things more ridiculous than seeing a girl in left field wearing a mask when there is no one within 100 feet of her. It has gotten out of control and common sense and reason seem to have gone out the window. I also think that the expectation for fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks outdoors (or even indoors for that matter) has been the last straw for a lot of people. So it’s easy to say “wearing a mask is such a simple thing to do, I don’t know why anyone had a problem with it”, but it’s really more complicated than that.

 

[zeferjen]

Exactly! Again this isn't a one size fits all proposition here. There are many factors to consider which includes past infections. I have had COVID and therefore I don't feel I need a vaccine. I had a robust response and an antibody test confirms I had a good response. This is a good article that I read on how people that have had COVID are already protected. That means I don't need to get an experimental treatment that may harm me to protect me from something I already have protection from.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/04/previous-covid-19-may-cut-risk-reinfection-84

My colleague, who was the first person I knew to have Covid, has it again. Her husband also has it again and has pneumonia in both lungs as well. I just think we don't know how this virus will behave yet so don't assume your protection will last long.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

I don’t think that most people have a problem with masks when it makes sense, such as indoors when close to others. I think the problem that most “anti-maskers” have is that it has snowballed to so much more. Now people are shamed for not wearing masks outdoors, even when nowhere near other people. For example, my daughter plays softball and her team has played other teams whose players are required to wear masks even when on defense. There are not many things more ridiculous than seeing a girl in left field wearing a mask when there is no one within 100 feet of her. It has gotten out of control and common sense and reason seem to have gone out the window. I also think that the expectation for fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks outdoors (or even indoors for that matter) has been the last straw for a lot of people. So it’s easy to say “wearing a mask is such a simple thing to do, I don’t know why anyone had a problem with it”, but it’s really more complicated than that.

I do agree that there are places where it isn't needed. Outdoor sports is definitely one. I consider myself pro-mask (obviously), but I don't where one when I'm outside exercising. I chuckled when I saw a lady exit her house, wearing a mask, to walk to the end of her driveway, get her mail from the mailbox, and immediately return to her house. No one was within 20 feet of her at any time, but she had her kn95 mask on. So granted some people take it to extremes.

But I've seen plenty of anti-maskers that are against them in all settings, even where they legitimately make sense. The post I quoted mentions Disney, stores, and airplanes. Those are all places where mask wearing makes sense.

As for continuing to require fully vaccinated people to wear masks, what's the alternative? Asking for proof of vaccination is obviously out of the question, as has been evidenced by posts here. And if people aren't getting vaccinated at a level that we need them to be in order to slow the spread, it's riskier for those that have been vaccinated to go without a mask.

 

[wideeyedwonder]

But I've seen plenty of anti-maskers that are against them in all settings, even where they legitimately make sense.

I would argue that MOST people in the United States are somewhere in the middle, just wanting sane policies backed by real science and prudent policy making. The fringe always makes the news, because that’s how the money is made; righteous anger Increases clicks, shares, and re-tweets, which equals advertiser $$$.

 

[Intr3pid]

But why doesn't anyone talk about treatments for COVID? The monoclonal antibody treatment from Regeneron is very good. Also what about Ivermectin? There have been some great Ex-Us studies about prophylactic use and the ability for it to cut outcomes of people who catch COVID. I know there are also a lot more studies on going for other therapeutics. This isn't just get a vaccine or die from COVID. There is more to consider.

This also goes back to the social media sites shutting down many physicians that were treating COVID patients with great success and they were not allowed to spread their protocols to other doctors. That is just wrong. We need to move away from just 1 established narrative to allow for scientific discussion. Over 100 years ago it was standard practice to use leeches for all sorts of ailments and now we know better. It does no one any good to shut out voices of dissent or voices that are asking valid questions because they challenge the current narrative.

The treatments are considerably less researched at the moment than the vaccines, but - yes, absolutely - once they are approved and ready for masses, they should be used. Like they are right now. Not everyone takes the annual flu shot and relies instead on treatments to address the symptoms.

The issue with COVID is that's highly contagious - much more than, say, the flu. A treatment will help you in time, but, in those 7 to 14 days, your body is a walking virus. You are possibly infecting everyone else around you, and they will also be out of commission until they are treated. There is a tangible cost of this - health, lost time, treatment costs, use of public health resources, etc.

Now, when it comes to your body, there are levels at which you can protect yourself:

1. You wear a mask, and the virus doesn't enter your body. Your body will be clean, your internal systems uncompromised - like a brand new car without accidents.

2. You get vaccinated, the virus enters your body but is swiftly killed by your trained immune system. An effective vaccine will kill it without much leftover - but there is always a risk that it might not or there will be side effects. If it works as intended, your body will remain unharmed.

3. No mask or vaccination, the virus enters your body, does damage, and spreads - but you use a treatment to undo most of it. A good treatment will help you recover, but your body may be damaged or altered in some way forever. With a good treatment, you won't notice this change after a recovery.

4. Same as #3 except you use your own immune system and some medical equipment to recover. No protection whatsoever, however. This is where the permanent damage will be the most vicious - as the long haulers are reporting.

The voices of dissent aren't being ignored - in fact, they were coming straight from the top last year. What the current debate shows is that facts and science will eventually overcome conspiracy theories. Our opinions are irrelevant when facts are available.

 

[orum]

There are also exemptions for all of those situations. We still need to have exemptions to allow for people to not be FORCED to take something that is going to harm them. And we KNOW it harms SOME people. So no, as adults we are generally not FORCED to have any vaccines. And even children have exemptions based on different criteria.

They are only forced if you want to do the things that require it. I am pretty sure I had to prove vaccination for entry into India or Argentina, but it was a while ago, so I may be mistaken.

I am hoping more activities require the vaccine for a while to reduce hesitancy on the short term even if that eases up later. I just heard that limitations on crowds at weddings won’t include vaccinated guests. Every little bit nudges people who are on the fence to get vaccinated.

 

[soniam]

They are only forced if you want to do the things that require it. I am pretty sure I had to prove vaccination for entry into India or Argentina, but it was a while ago, so I may be mistaken.

I am hoping more activities require the vaccine for a while to reduce hesitancy on the short term even if that eases up later. I just heard that limitations on crowds at weddings won’t include vaccinated guests. Every little bit nudges people who are on the fence to get vaccinated.

I don't think Argentina has any vaccination requirements currently. Not sure about covid though. I don't think we showed them our yellow books in December 2019; however, we were crossing the border between Chile and Argentina. We flew into Chile. They may have had requirements a while ago. There are of course recommended ones, but nothing currently required. Haven't been to India yet, so I don't know about them. I don't remember people from work having to get any shots though when they visited for business. There are a lot of countries that do require them though. I think the covid vaccine will be a completely different ball game though compared to previous vaccines due to it high transmissibility.

 

[michelleandbrett]

it's riskier for those that have been vaccinated to go without a mask.

WHY??

 

[jerry557]

The treatments are considerably less researched at the moment than the vaccines, but - yes, absolutely - once they are approved and ready for masses, they should be used. Like they are right now. Not everyone takes the annual flu shot and relies instead on treatments to address the symptoms.

The voices of dissent aren't being ignored - in fact, they were coming straight from the top last year. What the current debate shows is that facts and science will eventually overcome conspiracy theories. Our opinions are irrelevant when facts are available.

Yes they are being ignored. People are reporting side effects of the vaccines and are being censored by the media and social networks. Any negative information about the vaccines are being HEAVILY scrutinized while positive information is being HEAVILY promoted. That's a classic confirmation bias situation.

And this vaccine is obviously different than others we've had. It's new. The mRMA technology as never been deployed on this large a scale this quickly.
Someone I know I was just talking to tonight gets vaccines whenever needed because he's in a high risk occupation (his job doesn't require vaccines, but he gets them anyway because of potential exposure). He gets his flu shot every year, religiously. He's had a lot of vaccines. Says no shot has ever bothered him much at all other typical injection site soreness for a day or two. But anyway, with this COVID vaccine, it threw him for a loop, especially after the 2nd shot. He had a slight fever for 3 days. Sick feeling like a malaise. Headache that was on and off for a week. Said his arm "felt like it was hit with a sledgehammer" the day after the shot. And the most disturbing side effect he said he had a weird sensation of disassociation for several days. Said he had trouble concentrating sometimes. Moderna is the one he got. He told me he likely won't be getting a booster next year if it's needed.

I understand everyone is different. And probably someone in this forum had Moderna and had no issues at all. And that is likely true as well. But considering the fact the mRNA vaccines are just too new and we don't know the long term effects, I'm just not prepared to get it at this time. I've never had this kind of vaccine. So I have no idea how I would react to it. I'm sure someone will tell me to get the J&J one. But that's actually a similar vaccine. It just uses a virus as a vector. And I'm not very confident in their quality control right now. So yes, I'm waiting.

And this is certainly not a vaccine that should be mandatory right now. 5-10 years from now when we know more about it and the virus itself, maybe you can push it harder. Maybe by then we will have other more traditional vaccines people are used to. But no way should this be mandatory right now. If you want it, great. Get it. If you are high risk or have a lot of fear of the virus, you should get the shot. But everyone needs to do the risk analysis for themselves.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

WHY??

And if people aren't getting vaccinated at a level that we need them to be in order to slow the spread, it's riskier for those that have been vaccinated to go without a mask.

My quote makes more sense if you don't selectively edit part of it out.

As you must know, no vaccine is 100% effective. There will be a certain percentage of people that will not develop a sufficient amount of immunity from the vaccine in order to avoid getting the virus. For vaccines to be most effective, we have to have a large percent of the population vaccinated so that breakthrough cases are lessened. If you've been vaccinated but fall into that small percent of the population that doesn't develop enough immunity from the vaccine, and you are surrounded be unvaccinated people that might be carrying the virus, you can contract the virus. If you are that vaccinated person without sufficient immunity, but you are surrounded by other vaccinated people, the chance of you contracting the virus is substantially less because you will benefit from the herd immunity.

We are in a situation where a significant number of people are not getting vaccinated. So if you are vaccinated but a large number of the people around you are not vaccinated, you can wear a mask to lessen your likelihood of contracting the virus in case your immune system is one of the ones that didn't develop a full response to the vaccine.

There is also the issue of more variants developing because too few people are vaccinated and so the virus has the opportunity to spread and mutate, which could render the current vaccine less effective.

 

[mevelandry]

Yes they are being ignored. People are reporting side effects of the vaccines and are being censored by the media and social networks. Any negative information about the vaccines are being HEAVILY scrutinized while positive information is being HEAVILY promoted. That's a classic confirmation bias situation.

And this vaccine is obviously different than others we've had. It's new. The mRMA technology as never been deployed on this large a scale this quickly.
Someone I know I was just talking to tonight gets vaccines whenever needed because he's in a high risk occupation (his job doesn't require vaccines, but he gets them anyway because of potential exposure). He gets his flu shot every year, religiously. He's had a lot of vaccines. Says no shot has ever bothered him much at all other typical injection site soreness for a day or two. But anyway, with this COVID vaccine, it threw him for a loop, especially after the 2nd shot. He had a slight fever for 3 days. Sick feeling like a malaise. Headache that was on and off for a week. Said his arm "felt like it was hit with a sledgehammer" the day after the shot. And the most disturbing side effect he said he had a weird sensation of disassociation for several days. Said he had trouble concentrating sometimes. Moderna is the one he got. He told me he likely won't be getting a booster next year if it's needed.

I understand everyone is different. And probably someone in this forum had Moderna and had no issues at all. And that is likely true as well. But considering the fact the mRNA vaccines are just too new and we don't know the long term effects, I'm just not prepared to get it at this time. I've never had this kind of vaccine. So I have no idea how I would react to it. I'm sure someone will tell me to get the J&J one. But that's actually a similar vaccine. It just uses a virus as a vector. And I'm not very confident in their quality control right now. So yes, I'm waiting.

And this is certainly not a vaccine that should be mandatory right now. 5-10 years from now when we know more about it and the virus itself, maybe you can push it harder. Maybe by then we will have other more traditional vaccines people are used to. But no way should this be mandatory right now. If you want it, great. Get it. If you are high risk or have a lot of fear of the virus, you should get the shot. But everyone needs to do the risk analysis for themselves.

You are more likely to hear about cases of serious side effects in your local news. Here, a woman died of a thrombosis after receiving AZ. It made the news for a day or two... It’s extremely unfortunate... But in the grand scheme of things, she was the only one among hundreds of thousands. We all knew the risks. The story most likely didn’t make the National news or not with as much details.

You will always hear anecdotes and people pay more attention to how they feel and may (or may not) associate with the vaccine the sensations they would have experienced anyway (ex: headaches, fatigue, etc.)

Ex: Around me these days, people are getting tested for COVID when they are experiencing symptoms of seasonal allergies... They have had these symptoms every year, they just never really got worried about them before.

 

[Canadian Girl]

Yes they are being ignored. People are reporting side effects of the vaccines and are being censored by the media and social networks. Any negative information about the vaccines are being HEAVILY scrutinized while positive information is being HEAVILY promoted. That's a classic confirmation bias situation.

And this vaccine is obviously different than others we've had. It's new. The mRMA technology as never been deployed on this large a scale this quickly.
Someone I know I was just talking to tonight gets vaccines whenever needed because he's in a high risk occupation (his job doesn't require vaccines, but he gets them anyway because of potential exposure). He gets his flu shot every year, religiously. He's had a lot of vaccines. Says no shot has ever bothered him much at all other typical injection site soreness for a day or two. But anyway, with this COVID vaccine, it threw him for a loop, especially after the 2nd shot. He had a slight fever for 3 days. Sick feeling like a malaise. Headache that was on and off for a week. Said his arm "felt like it was hit with a sledgehammer" the day after the shot. And the most disturbing side effect he said he had a weird sensation of disassociation for several days. Said he had trouble concentrating sometimes. Moderna is the one he got. He told me he likely won't be getting a booster next year if it's needed.

I understand everyone is different. And probably someone in this forum had Moderna and had no issues at all. And that is likely true as well. But considering the fact the mRNA vaccines are just too new and we don't know the long term effects, I'm just not prepared to get it at this time. I've never had this kind of vaccine. So I have no idea how I would react to it. I'm sure someone will tell me to get the J&J one. But that's actually a similar vaccine. It just uses a virus as a vector. And I'm not very confident in their quality control right now. So yes, I'm waiting.

And this is certainly not a vaccine that should be mandatory right now. 5-10 years from now when we know more about it and the virus itself, maybe you can push it harder. Maybe by then we will have other more traditional vaccines people are used to. But no way should this be mandatory right now. If you want it, great. Get it. If you are high risk or have a lot of fear of the virus, you should get the shot. But everyone needs to do the risk analysis for themselves.

Just had my Pfizer shot. Didn’t feel the needle and apart from a slightly sore arm, so far at least, feel just fine. I surveyed my friends and they have had a similar response. MRNA vaccines are not new technology. The science is decades old They are simple and are the way of the future for targeted cancer vaccines etc as you can plug in what you need, easily and quickly. I researched for a long time and was dreading getting it due to all the posts on social media. Most are anecdotal without peer reviewed and researched data. Feeling happy and ready for my second so I can get sailing again, Given how virulent the variants are, many who are hesitating now might not be around in 5-10 years to see that those vaccinated are just getting on with life. Anecdotal stories are not fact. And of course it is always a personal choice. But businesses and individual countries who decide they will require a vaccine passport, also have that right. Disassociation is also a common sign of anxiety. Social media has done a good job of scaring people. The list of anxiety symptoms is long and includes many things you would never guess. BTDT. Not everything is black and white,

 

[Canadian Girl]

The stat I've seen is 1/3 of people who had COVID are long haulers.

Scans have shown a large number have changes in the brain and lungs from Covid, and these are not elderly patients or those with preexisting health issues. Recovering from Covid does not mean your body might ever be the same. It is a SARs virus. And it keeps mutating in those who are unvaccinated.

 

[jdb in AZ]

My cousin (late 50's) is a long hauler. He was hospitalized for nearly a month and one of his nurses told him it would take a week to recover for every day he was in the hospital, so to figure 8 mos. At first he didn't believe her, but he does now. His legs atrophied enough to effect his hip replacements, and now after 4 mos post-hospital his thigh muscles still hurt. All things considered, he's lucky. He lost both his parents (mid 80's) to Covid.

 

[Starwind]

Scans have shown a large number have changes in the brain and lungs from Covid, and these are not elderly patients or those with preexisting health issues. Recovering from Covid does not mean your body might ever be the same. It is a SARs virus. And it keeps mutating in those who are unvaccinated.

The other problem is they are also finding some of those changes in people who were asymptomatic or who had mild cases, though the prevalence appears to be much less than those who had more severe cases. So having no symptoms or a mild case doesn't necessarily mean you get "off" without long term effects, either. One of the many ways this virus is unlike others. Another reason why being able to prevent it and eliminate it it so important.