The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[anricat]

The other problem is they are also finding some of those changes in people who were asymptomatic or who had mild cases, though the prevalence appears to be much less than those who had more severe cases. So having no symptoms or a mild case doesn't necessarily mean you get "off" without long term effects, either. One of the many ways this virus is unlike others. Another reason why being able to prevent it and eliminate it it so important.

Indeed. I have a friend whose husband is a radiologist. He is constantly seeing damaged lungs in scans people are getting for other things totally unrelated (I'm not a radiologist so I don't know if these are MRI, CT, or x-ray), but apparently he said he surprises a lot of people who have lung damage by saying, "oh, you had Covid, I see the lung damage" and they= had no idea that they even had it. That's scary to me. (Especially in my line of work as a fitness instructor where my lungs are my bread and butter.)

 

[michelleandbrett]

he said he surprises a lot of people who have lung damage by saying, "oh, you had Covid, I see the lung damage" and they= had no idea that they even had it.

This seems pretty far fetched relating it to covid with no symptoms.

 

[soniam]

This seems pretty far fetched relating it to covid with no symptoms.

Lung damage due to covid looks very particular. It particularly causes blood clotting in the lungs, which is fairly unique, except for smokers. Also, radiologists are seeing a lot of lung damage in younger people, <25, which is also not common, unless you have had covid.

 

[anricat]

This seems pretty far fetched relating it to covid with no symptoms.

So then who are you accusing of lying: me or my friend's husband? My making up random stuff to post on the DIS seems pretty far fetched. I'm just repeating what my friend told me her husband is seeing. I have no reason to doubt him. He's with a well established Radiology center here in central Texas.

 

[anricat]

Ah, here, since you don't believe me, there's actually a study: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless

Here's another one which says, "A recent study suggests about half of asymptomatic COVID-19 carriers may end up with damage to their lungs." https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-1...tomatic-COVID-19-cases--UW4EfTLyYo/index.html

So while my friend's husband's observations may be anecdotal, it appears that there is something to it and it's definitely not "far fetched."

 

[michelleandbrett]

So then who are you accusing of lying: me or my friend's husband? My making up random stuff to post on the DIS seems pretty far fetched. I'm just repeating what my friend told me her husband is seeing. I have no reason to doubt him. He's with a well established Radiology center here in central Texas.

Whoa, I was not at all calling you or your friend a liar about the lung damage. All I'm saying is there may or may not be a connection, but to automatically jump to covid when they had ZERO symptoms then shuts out investigation of other possibilities. It could be covid related...or you yourself said smoking...or maybe something to do with wearing masks all the time, or something else completely.

 

[mevelandry]

Whoa, I was not at all calling you or your friend a liar about the lung damage. All I'm saying is there may or may not be a connection, but to automatically jump to covid when they had ZERO symptoms then shuts out investigation of other possibilities. It could be covid related...or you yourself said smoking...or maybe something to do with wearing masks all the time, or something else completely.

Masks are not known to create lung damage. Health workers have been wearing them forever.

 

[DizneyFamof4]

Whoa, I was not at all calling you or your friend a liar about the lung damage. All I'm saying is there may or may not be a connection, but to automatically jump to covid when they had ZERO symptoms then shuts out investigation of other possibilities. It could be covid related...or you yourself said smoking...or maybe something to do with wearing masks all the time, or something else completely.

 

[anricat]

Whoa, I was not at all calling you or your friend a liar about the lung damage. All I'm saying is there may or may not be a connection, but to automatically jump to covid when they had ZERO symptoms then shuts out investigation of other possibilities. It could be covid related...or you yourself said smoking...or maybe something to do with wearing masks all the time, or something else completely.

Ah, okay, so you're just questioning his professional integrity. That's so much better. Covid damage looks very specific. Try out one of those articles I posted above. I said nothing about smoking. Smoking looks different too. Wearing masks doesn't cause lunge damage. How could wearing a mask possibly cause lung damage? That's not even logical. As far as "something else completely" like what? Here we have a virus that damaging the lungs absolutely RAMPAGING our world. We see damage on a scan that looks exactly identical to the damage this virus does to the lungs and your first conclusion is, "ah well, it's probably something else." I don't even know how to argue against that anti-logical type of thinking.

 

[lanejudy]

Ah, okay, so you're just questioning his professional integrity.

I question his professionalism. As someone whose immediate family members have need for fairly regular radiology services at multiple hospitals - the radiologist never shares results directly with the patient. The patient is always directed to follow-up with the ordering HCP, who knows the patient's history and current concerns. It is not at all professional for the radiologist to give that opinion -- especially when covid apparently isn't the immediate reason for the pictures he's taking.

 

[mevelandry]

I think the point was: it looks like COVID leaves lesions on the lungs, whether you experience symptoms or not.

That‘s one more reason to get the shot.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I question his professionalism. As someone whose immediate family members have need for fairly regular radiology services at multiple hospitals - the radiologist never shares results directly with the patient. The patient is always directed to follow-up with the ordering HCP, who knows the patient's history and current concerns. It is not at all professional for the radiologist to give that opinion -- especially when covid apparently isn't the immediate reason for the pictures he's taking.

This is simply not true. I've been an xray tech for over 30 years and there are many instances where our radiologist tells patients directly. I can think of 3 right off the top of my head:
1. Diagnostic Mammography- this is where I currently work and all of patients at our diagnostic center get their results before leaving. All day, every day. Occasionally, if very urgent or we have openings in our schedule, we perform a biopsy same day. When our radiologists perform the biopsy, he/she calls the patient with results of the biopsy. The pt probably gets a call from the referring doctor as well but our docs never assume the pt got their results from someone else. So if any of our pts have cancer, they were told that by the radiologist who perfomed their biopsy.

2. fractures on pediatric patients- this is where I used to work before moving to the breast center. For positive fractures, we'd call the dr office who would ask us to give results and films to patient. The dr office would make arrangements with an ortho doc visit for them.

3. outpatient chest xrays with active TB - When people have a +PPD, part of their workup is getting a chest xray. Occasionally, that person has active TB and we can't just send them back into the world without saying something. We'd quickly put a mask on him/her and move to a less frequently used xray room and await further instructions from the referring MD. You can't just do this to people without saying why. It's important that they know immediately, before they potentially infect others.

 

[princessmommyx3]

I question his professionalism. As someone whose immediate family members have need for fairly regular radiology services at multiple hospitals - the radiologist never shares results directly with the patient. The patient is always directed to follow-up with the ordering HCP, who knows the patient's history and current concerns. It is not at all professional for the radiologist to give that opinion -- especially when covid apparently isn't the immediate reason for the pictures he's taking.

My husband has worked in radiology his entire career and I do agree with this. Most of the time, the radiologist does not even read the exams until the patient is gone (unless they are an inpatient in a hospital, obviously) and does not even see the patient. There are a few exemptions to this, but this is what happens the majority of the time. At the same time, I just questioned him and at his hospital the radiologists are seeing a lot of covid lung damage. So I do think that anricat is correct about that, just not about the fact that the information is given to the patient directly from the radiologist.

 

[mostlytraveling4food]

Masks are not known to create lung damage. Health workers have been wearing them forever.

But health workers switch out for a new one multiple times a day, and only while in a room with a patient. Everyone else wears the same one for months, for 8 hours a day.

It’s more common to see reused masks hanging from a rear view mirror than pine tree air fresheners.

 

[Canadian Girl]

First of all, there are plenty of conspiracy theorists with everything around us. Someone is going to come up with a video to make you believe in their snake oil. Do these 'doctors' have any factual data or research to share that suggests that these vaccines are potentially dangerous? I would actually love to know because I respect the facts.

Let's assume these vaccines carry risks, and these doctors are right. What are the alternatives? Every anti-vaxxer I have come across is also anti-masks, so there goes that protection too. Should we stay unprotected? The stats tell us 400,000 annual excess deaths in the country and about 30% average incidence of long-haul symptoms. We prefer this instead of a vaccine that has a who-knows-in-a-million chance of who-knows-what happening?

Before the vaccination efforts, the US was hitting almost 4,500 COVID deaths per day. Four months on, the daily deaths are down to just 800. In just these 120 days, the vaccines have saved 440,000 US lives! And probably millions of long haulers. So, no, that argument is not being silenced - it just becomes irrelevant if we won't be alive or healthy enough to talk about it.

My cruise group was run by someone who was censoring all posts and deleting, where someone posted they had gotten a vaccination etc, even if it didn’t mention anything else claiming it was political and not permitted. How on earth can you have a group today where this is silenced? It became obvious she was a denier but unfortunately, was the only admin and controlled everything. Open discussion that is thoughtful and polite is useful and necessary. Disney cruisers live in many countries and find this kind of censorship to be strange. Disney will have to follow the rules of the countries they sail to and help passengers feel safe no matter where they are from. I know some hope the Alaska cruises pull put of Canada, to circumvent a possible vaccine passport in the future, but can’t see the company doing that and risk losing customers who expect that, at least initially when sailings restart.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

But health workers switch out for a new one multiple times a day, and only while in a room with a patient. Everyone else wears the same one for months, for 8 hours a day.

It’s more common to see reused masks hanging from a rear view mirror than pine tree air fresheners.

Not true. No one indoors is only wearing a mask while in a room with a patient. Do you think they just go maskless once they leave a pt room? This was once true for isolation patients in the pre-Covid days. We were given very specific instructions early on as to how long we need to re-use an N-95 mask. At first it was 7 days, then 3 days, then once per shift. That was the last I've heard and I'm not in the main hospital very often so I can't say if the once per shift is still the rule.
In breast imaging we are wearing the same mask all day (surgical, ear-loop style) unless we sneeze or the mask gets little loose fibers that keep tickling/making our face itch, then we switch out for a new one. We are able to screen our patients at the door for covid and we are not caring for covid pts in breast imaging so for us the rules are different than say, nurses who work with known covid pts.

My father saves old disposible masks and keeps a pile on a kitchen countertop. The whole thing grosses me out completely. I try to explain to him it's the equivalent of the old days of handkerchiefs vs. disposible tissues. Once it's used, throw it out. When I visit him I wrap 1 or 2 in a paper towel and throw them out while he's in the bathroom. He only wears one to go into a store 2-3 times per week. I personally don't know anyone who wears the same one 8 hours per day for months. That is beyond disgusting.

Part of the reason people got into the habit of holding onto them is because they were hard to find initially and if you could find them they were expensive. Now they're cheaper and easier to get but try to convince seniors to throw something out that appears barely used...

 

[mevelandry]

But health workers switch out for a new one multiple times a day, and only while in a room with a patient. Everyone else wears the same one for months, for 8 hours a day.

It’s more common to see reused masks hanging from a rear view mirror than pine tree air fresheners.

Well, let's talk about common sense. Nobody should wear the same mask for months. I wear the medical ones and I change it every time their are wet or twice a day. Whenever I wore fabric masks, I would wash them every day and always have two spares with me just in case.

 

[mostlytraveling4food]

Not true. No one indoors is only wearing a mask while in a room with a patient. Do you think they just go maskless once they leave a pt room? This was once true for isolation patients in the pre-Covid days. We were given very specific instructions early on as to how long we need to re-use an N-95 mask. At first it was 7 days, then 3 days, then once per shift. That was the last I've heard and I'm not in the main hospital very often so I can't say if the once per shift is still the rule.
In breast imaging we are wearing the same mask all day unless we sneeze or the mask gets little loose fibers that keep tickling/making our face itch, then we switch out for a new one.

My father saves old disposible masks and keeps a pile on a kitchen countertop. The whole thing grosses me out completely. I try to explain to him it's the equivalent of the old days of handkerchiefs vs. disposible tissues. Once it's used, throw it out. When I visit him I wrap 1 or 2 in a paper towel and throw them out while he's in the bathroom. He only wears one to go into a store 2-3 times per week. I personally don't know anyone who wears the same one 8 hours per day for months. That is beyond disgusting.

Part of the reason people got into the habit of holding onto them is because they were hard to find initially and if you could find them they were expensive. Now they're cheaper and easier to get but try to convince seniors to throw something out that appears barely used...

I was replying to someone saying health workers have been wearing masks for years and have no lung damage.

Prior to 2020, no one in healthcare wore a mask all day.

The new norms we’ve seen adopted in the past year are different, and we have no data on long term effects.

 

[mostlytraveling4food]

Well, let's talk about common sense. Nobody should wear the same mask for months. I wear the medical ones and I change it every time their are wet or twice a day. Whenever I wore fabric masks, I would wash them every day and always have two spares with me just in case.

No one should wear a mask while driving in a car by themself or walking by themself outdoors, but here we are.

 

[mevelandry]

I was replying to someone saying health workers have been wearing masks for years and have no lung damage.

Prior to 2020, no one in healthcare wore a mask all day.

The new norms we’ve seen adopted in the past year are different, and we have no data on long term effects.

Surgeons. Surgeons wear masks for hours in the operating room. They have always been.