The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[we"reofftoneverland]

Notice the typical ad hominem attacks on this doctor by disboard commenters. But also notice that no one has any criticism on the substance of what he says. That’s because this practicing doctor, publishing academic, and professor of medicine who has treated many COVID 19 patients and published articles on COVID 19 doesn’t say anything outrageous. Everything he says is backed by science and data. In addition, when I look at the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons website, I am surprised to find that everything he talks about is also discussed by the organization. I actually looked at this website for the first time today and I am shocked by how this organization has been completely sidelined by the media. They present a completely different perspective.

https://aapsonline.org/

 

[kathi]

Any chance we could get back to talking about the vaccine and not the doctor? I love this thread and learn so much - but this is getting super tedious.

 

[Mousequake]

Any chance we could get back to talking about the vaccine and not the doctor? I love this thread and learn so much - but this is getting super tedious.

Absolutely. This doesn’t have anything to do with vaccines. I apologize for my part in it.

 

[TestingH2O]

In addition, when I look at the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons website, I am surprised to find that everything he talks about is also discussed by the organization.

I agree with Kathi, but I’ll just take a moment to point out that the group you are referring to is not a professional organization. It is a political one. This group is also known for perpetuating information not supported by data regarding all sorts of things like HIV, breast cancer, and now COVID.

A geologist could self publish a paper that the Earth is flat. Others in the same field would denounce the paper as being false because there is much more evidence that the Earth is not flat, and we should all continue to act accordingly. In much the same way, when people self publish information about COVID that is not supported by data, scientists and doctors are going to come out and speak plainly that the information is false. It’s not an agenda or a vendetta, it is ensuring that people have information that is accurate.

 

[AquaDame]

Notice the typical ad hominem attacks on this doctor by disboard commenters. But also notice that no one has any criticism on the substance of what he says. That’s because this practicing doctor, publishing academic, and professor of medicine who has treated many COVID 19 patients and published articles on COVID 19 doesn’t say anything outrageous. Everything he says is backed by science and data. In addition, when I look at the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons website, I am surprised to find that everything he talks about is also discussed by the organization. I actually looked at this website for the first time today and I am shocked by how this organization has been completely sidelined by the media. They present a completely different perspective.

https://aapsonline.org/

This organization?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

"The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a conservative non-profit association founded in 1944. The group was reported to have about 5,000 members in 2014. The association has promoted a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance. "

I can see why...

I'm sorry you feel that people are discrediting him without watching the video. With a headline of '"vaccine" deaths' and a unsubstantiated claim that the vaccine has killed a lot of people I can see why they have not. In the first minute he claims tens of thousands have had to go to the hospital due to the vaccine... where is he getting this number? Do you not think the families would be clamoring to the news stations? We hear from all kinds of news sources, both liberal and conservative and everything between and on either side bring forth every case where the vaccine has caused issues, such as the several issues of blood clots from the J&J which completely halted administering them for a time.

Regenron, pulmicort and favipiravir are still in trials for treatment of covid... he names a few others as well that I didn't catch, but really what it comes down to is him saying 'hey, we have these medicines that treat these issues, so we're giving them to people who have covid but arent yet in the hospital. I don't think anyone is arguing with prescribing approved medicines for an off label use while we figure this out. (PS he also mentions hydroxychloroquin but that has, AFAIK, been proven ineffective https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-05773-w )

He then goes on to say participants in the trials were 'unblinded' because they would get sore arms from the shots or have side effects. Wouldn't that be true of ALL clinical studies? I've gotten a sore arm from every shot I've ever had, and whenever I give blood, or have an IV, etc. I'm sure clinical trials allow for that. I find it VERY unlikely that participants in the trial would NOT come forward if they started feeling ill because they 'knew they got an actual vaccine' as he insists. You don't come forward if you are in a trial; you are checked in with constantly and the entire point is you tell them how you're feeling that day. So this Doctor insists than en masse everyone in the trial hid how they truly felt if and only if they "knew" they had the vaccine? Hard no.

"I wouldn't want anyone who had the vaccine to think they were protected from covid-19" No worries. That's why we're being told to still mask and do other things in addition, to account for that % below 100% until we hit herd immunity (if it occurs).

I mean.. I did listen to the whole thing because I'm stubborn and I do try to have an open mind on things but it just comes across as a conspiracy theory. The hosts 'oh wow! how does that make you feel!' every time he spits out a number doesn't help.

Now that you have gotten a response I hope we can move on... the official stance of our country, our government, the vast majority of our doctors and millions of our fellow citizens is that the vaccines are safe and effective. We anticipate the FDA will give full approval to Pfizer shortly and the other vaccines will follow suit. Just as we would not allow controversial topics on other matters I am going to have to draw a line on links and articles that have been pulled from other sources for being dubious and will be deleting that link.

 

[kathi]

A geologist could self publish a paper that the Earth is flat. Others in the same field would denounce the paper as being false because there is much more evidence that the Earth is not flat, and we should all continue to act accordingly. In much the same way, when people self publish information about COVID that is not supported by data, scientists and doctors are going to come out and speak plainly that the information is false. It’s not an agenda or a vendetta, it is ensuring that people have information that is accurate

Did you know I’m a geologist?! I totally get your point and I would go completely medieval on some geologist running around saying the the Earth was flat...or young.

 

[tink2424]

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-tragedy-of-the-post-covid-long-haulers-2020101521173

Thanks! The 2nd article has links to studies that I'm going to read. I appreciate you posting these.

 

[tink2424]

One word: money. As nice of an idea as it is that pharmaceutical companies are working for the good of society, they are not. If it is not profitable, they will not do it. The mrna vaccine technology has been sitting on a shelf for decades because until now, a virus had not come along that would have made them a profit. When SARS and MERS came along, there was thought initially that the mrna might be helpful and thus profitable but then those viruses fizzled out and no money was to be made so the research went back on the shelf.

It's true pharma needs to make money but I can't believe there aren't other infectious diseases that they couldn't have made money on before this. So I don't believe this is the main reason.

 

[tink2424]

First of all, there are plenty of conspiracy theorists with everything around us. Someone is going to come up with a video to make you believe in their snake oil. Do these 'doctors' have any factual data or research to share that suggests that these vaccines are potentially dangerous? I would actually love to know because I respect the facts.

Let's assume these vaccines carry risks, and these doctors are right. What are the alternatives? Every anti-vaxxer I have come across is also anti-masks, so there goes that protection too. Should we stay unprotected? The stats tell us 400,000 annual excess deaths in the country and about 30% average incidence of long-haul symptoms. We prefer this instead of a vaccine that has a who-knows-in-a-million chance of who-knows-what happening?

Before the vaccination efforts, the US was hitting almost 4,500 COVID deaths per day. Four months on, the daily deaths are down to just 800. In just these 120 days, the vaccines have saved 440,000 US lives! And probably millions of long haulers. So, no, that argument is not being silenced - it just becomes irrelevant if we won't be alive or healthy enough to talk about it.

But why doesn't anyone talk about treatments for COVID? The monoclonal antibody treatment from Regeneron is very good. Also what about Ivermectin? There have been some great Ex-Us studies about prophylactic use and the ability for it to cut outcomes of people who catch COVID. I know there are also a lot more studies on going for other therapeutics. This isn't just get a vaccine or die from COVID. There is more to consider.

This also goes back to the social media sites shutting down many physicians that were treating COVID patients with great success and they were not allowed to spread their protocols to other doctors. That is just wrong. We need to move away from just 1 established narrative to allow for scientific discussion. Over 100 years ago it was standard practice to use leeches for all sorts of ailments and now we know better. It does no one any good to shut out voices of dissent or voices that are asking valid questions because they challenge the current narrative.

I see that he's a renowned cardiologist, but I'm not sure he has any experience with immunology. With a viral disease I'll take my chances with the latter type doctor.

Just because your specialty is not immunology does not meant that you can't read the research and ask questions or form a different opinion. A lot of medical professionals as well as immunologists see great potential for long term issues from the vaccines. They just haven't been studied long enough for us to know what we don't know. We should be encouraging scientific discussion not shutting it down.

 

[Trera]

One word: money. As nice of an idea as it is that pharmaceutical companies are working for the good of society, they are not. If it is not profitable, they will not do it. The mrna vaccine technology has been sitting on a shelf for decades because until now, a virus had not come along that would have made them a profit. When SARS and MERS came along, there was thought initially that the mrna might be helpful and thus profitable but then those viruses fizzled out and no money was to be made so the research went back on the shelf.

All businesses are out to make money. That is the fuel that keeps the vehicle moving. How much do you think entertainment companies and their affiliated businesses make off of us?? We wouldn't see the Wish being built if there weren't sound projections that it will be a major money maker. It doesn't seem to create enough ill will to deter people from dumping their pay checks into Disney's bank account.

Pharma companies spend millions of dollars each year on drug R&D, testing, trials, FDA approval, etc. .............but you have to remember that much of this money is never recouped as not all drugs are approved. Some other drugs are geared toward rare disease with relatively low numbers of treatable patients, so the cost per dose seems high to spread out the start up costs over few patients.

I think the vaccine just happened to be a winner for the companies that were able to get their vaccine approved. maybe their next venture doesn't pay them so well. Im happy to be vaccinated and that the new tech allowed vaccine development to be cut way down from the time it would have taken for tritonal vaccine methods.

 

[sabrecmc]

As I understand it, a lot of the delay in development of mRNA vaccines came from figuring out how to stabilize the delivery mechanism so the immune system wouldn't destroy it. Or something science-y like that. Basically, the people advocating for it couldn't get grant money b/c all the companies and govt agencies, universities, etc. kept saying it wouldn't work. When the primary researchers of the technique figured out a way around this, it went largely unnoticed by the general scientific community, but a couple of people who did notice happened to later help found Moderna (literally from "modified rna") and BioNTech, Pfizer's partner on the vaccine. I read a very fascinating article on it a while ago. Really sort of a neat bit of scientific history.

 

[Mousequake]

Did you know I’m a geologist?! I totally get your point and I would go completely medieval on some geologist running around saying the the Earth was flat...or young.

Ha! My wife feels you. The vast majority of her time in the past year has been spent metaphorically going medieval on people spewing anti-vax propaganda, doctors pushing unauthorized and dangerous treatments, and just all-around misinformation being spread. Makes it hard to do her ACTUAL job, which is to help get this pandemic under control.

There seems to be this growing disturbing movement that 'all voices are valid and deserve to be equally heard' which is just mystifying to me. All opinions do NOT deserve equal time, because some of them are dangerous and giving them a voice increases their reach.

 

[Orsino]

Ok, if the technology is so great then why haven't we used it to create vaccines for other communicable diseases? Why did it need to wait for COVID to come along?

I'm not going to get into an argument about vaccination because studies show that arguing with people hesitant on the vaccine only makes them more hesitant. Get it, don't get it. Whatever.

Factually, though, the mRNA vaccine technique was developed to combat SARS. The reason it didn't make it to deployment is because SARS was contained by traditional isolation techinques.
The SARS mRNA vaccines were not used because we no longer needed them.

 

[Orsino]

But why doesn't anyone talk about treatments for COVID? The monoclonal antibody treatment from Regeneron is very good. Also what about Ivermectin?

Many Covid-19 treatments have been studied and continue to be studied. The existence of or the hope for treatments does not eliminate the benefit of vaccines. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Also, I'm a bit baffled with the opinion that vaccines are too fast and need to be studied more, but somehow treatments are A-OKAY right now.

 

[jerry557]

Many Covid-19 treatments have been studied and continue to be studied. The existence of or the hope for treatments does not eliminate the benefit of vaccines. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Also, I'm a bit baffled with the opinion that vaccines are too fast and need to be studied more, but somehow treatments are A-OKAY right now.

Because of the continuous debate of vaccines being made mandatory. Therapies and treatments would be more a personal decision between a patient and their doctor who can both evaluate the risks on a case by case basis. Vaccines are being forced.

 

[orum]

Vaccines being forced is nothing new. Want to go to school (grade school, high school, college), there are vaccine requirements. I remember being marched through the Armory in college to get the meningitis vaccine and after that it was required for incoming freshman. When I travelled globally for work, I kept a vaccine card in my passport for when I went to countries that wanted proof of vaccination. It will be new for some private company activities to require it, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. In fact these activities are probably not as critical so the ones I listed above, so you actually have even more choice to not get vaccinated and not participate in those activities.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Vaccines are being forced.

Not really, you can choose to vaccinate or not. But if you choose not to, there may be ramifications (like not being allowed into places, or certain travel options).

 

[jerry557]

Vaccines being forced is nothing new. Want to go to school (grade school, high school, college), there are vaccine requirements. I remember being marched through the Armory in college to get the meningitis vaccine and after that it was required for incoming freshman. When I travelled globally for work, I kept a vaccine card in my passport for when I went to countries that wanted proof of vaccination. It will be new for some private company activities to require it, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. In fact these activities are probably not as critical so the ones I listed above, so you actually have even more choice to not get vaccinated and not participate in those activities.

I’ve never been asked for a vaccine card while going to Disney World or a cruise ship or bording a domestic air flight or going to a grocery store or movie theater.
And many schools have exemptions you can apply for.

What we are seeing right now is taking it to an extreme. People won’t be able to have a job or do anything socially unless they get the jab. And then the government makes the sick joke that it’s “voluntary.”

 

[Maggie'sMom]

I’ve never been asked for a vaccine card while going to Disney World or a cruise ship or bording a domestic air flight or going to a grocery store or movie theater.
And many schools have exemptions you can apply for.

What we are seeing right now is taking it to an extreme. People won’t be able to have a job or do anything socially unless they get the jab. And then the government makes the sick joke that it’s “voluntary.”

And thus far, from that list, cruises are the only activity that I've seen where vaccines may be mandatory, and even then, I think it would be temporary until spread is better controlled. And the reason for cruises to mandate it are because of the experience of the virus spreading on ships and then from ships into the ports at the beginning of the pandemic. Unfortunately, the cruise ship environment proved to not be a good mix with a highly contagious virus spread through aerosols. The rest is hyperbole.

 

[jerry557]

And thus far, from that list, cruises are the only activity that I've seen where vaccines may be mandatory, and even then, I think it would be temporary until spread is better controlled. And the reason for cruises to mandate it are because of the experience of the virus spreading on ships and then from ships into the ports at the beginning of the pandemic. Unfortunately, the cruise ship environment proved to not be a good mix with a highly contagious virus spread through aerosols. The rest is hyperbole.

People said the same thing about masks. That places like Disney would never require them. Stores and governments wouldn’t require them. Heck I remember people saying temperature checks would not even happen. Now we are kicking screaming autistic 2 year olds off airplanes and everyone shrugs their shoulders.

So I’m sorry. I don’t trust anyone anymore. If you don’t oppose these vaccine passports they will be required everywhere. This is why the Florida legislature made the law. Someone needs to draw a line. Enough is enough.