The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[mmackeymouse]

Except what benefit is DCL getting? They still have to pass all federal, state, local, and foreign requirements. In addition they still are going to need to continue with reduced capacity, mask requirements, and other restrictions.

As I keep outlining I dont see anyone doing a "vaccine and no other restriction".

In the state of Florida what restrictions do they have? Would you see that state putting in 100% vaccination requirements to stop whatever little restrictions they have?

You are now asking these companies to 100% own the requirement. That's a very tall ask when such a large percentage of the population is opposed to mandated vaccines.

So, the benefit, to my mind, would be that a vaccine mandate means there will be more vaccinated people on the ship. I think *a lot* of people who have chosen to get vaccinated will opt out of a cruise knowing there could be a sizable population of unvaccinated people on there.

Also....I am not saying "Vaccine and no other restriction" on DCL, in the State of Florida, or anywhere.

Finally....I am not asking *anything* of these companies.....all I am saying is....I think DCL is well within their right to do it. I wouldn't be opposed if they did it. I wouldn't be surprised if they did it. I can see why they would choose to do it.

 

[sethschroeder]

all I am saying is....I think DCL is well within their right to do it.

Except no one is really saying they can't. The discussion is if they will.

So, the benefit, to my mind, would be that a vaccine mandate means there will be more vaccinated people on the ship.

Would have to see what the rate is of people opting out because of unvaccinated.

My personal thought on why a vaccine requirement nationwide would be a possible positive thing simply comes from hopefully stopping a new mutation that would escape immunity/vaccines.

I personally would have no issue going with others who are not vaccinated but also already had Covid19 and possibly would have a vaccination prior to the cruise.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The CDC return to sail requires masks and limiting capacity (or, at least social distancing, which likely means capacity reduction, seriously) among other measures. So I doubt vaccines erase that for quite some time.

 

[jlwhitney]

The CDC return to sail requires masks and limiting capacity (or, at least social distancing, which likely means capacity reduction, seriously) among other measures. So I doubt vaccines erase that for quite some time.

The CDC will also change their guidelines as we go and reach herd immunity which Fauci is hoping and expecting by end of august.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The CDC will also change their guidelines as we go and reach herd immunity which Fauci is hoping and expecting by end of august.

DCL attracts foreign nationals. It is a lot more complex.

 

[Cheburashka]

That's fine but you likely will find similar flaws. I also can't go off your personal experience because these polls are meant to capture the population as a whole.

Also if mask mandate is flawed towards 50% then you can say vaccine mandates are in part going to be less than the outlined 40-50% it's at today.

I have dealt with data collection and surveys in the past and errors that can occur. Also while data won't be perfect if you are sampling the same groups even though you have error you can draw conclusions as the data sampled is similarly flawed.

The conclusions people draw from flawed polling tend to be similarly flawed. Just look at the political polling over the past four years. It hasn't done well, and the conclusions people reached from that "data" were wrong.

 

[sethschroeder]

The conclusions people draw from flawed polling tend to be similarly flawed. Just look at the political polling over the past four years. It hasn't done well, and the conclusions people reached from that "data" were wrong.

Except all data is flawed in a similar manner. So yes you can absolutely make assumptions based on the data.

The data is also not close either with a 30-40 point spread between masking vs vaccine policy view. So this is not like a presidential election where the spread is typically within the margin of error of 4-7%.

The political polls since 1998:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-are-all-right/
For 2020 here you go as well: (Biden 51..4% / Trump 46.9%)
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/national/

 

[jane01jp]

The conclusions people draw from flawed polling tend to be similarly flawed. Just look at the political polling over the past four years. It hasn't done well, and the conclusions people reached from that "data" were wrong.

I think the US government will eventually force vaccinations by way of making economic life nearly impossible for people who don't take them. This will then become the new normal - the government won't directly compel anyone (that would be unconstitutional) - they will outsource it to third parties, much in the same way that suppression of free speech is being outsourced to the big tech companies.

 

[Cheburashka]

I think the US government will eventually force vaccinations by way of making economic life nearly impossible for people who don't take them. This will then become the new normal - the government won't directly compel anyone (that would be unconstitutional) - they will outsource it to third parties...

I don't buy that at all. There is no constitutional way for the federal government to force "third parties" to require their employees be vaccinated.

 

[DisneYE]

I don't buy that at all. There is no constitutional way for the federal government to force "third parties" to require their employees be vaccinated.

There doesn't need to be a constitutional way, corporations will do it anyway with tacit approval from the govt.
It'll start with airlines (it already started), cruises, concert & sports venues.
Then employment opportunities.
Then it'll move to stores, banks, restaurants, museums.
It'll happen. Just wait.
It's a new world out there.

 

[jane01jp]

There doesn't need to be a constitutional way, corporations will do it anyway with tacit approval from the govt.
It'll start with airlines (it already started), cruises, concert & sports venues.
Then employment opportunities.
Then it'll move to stores, banks, restaurants, museums.
It'll happen. Just wait.
It's a new world out there.

I agree with you completely. It's amazing to me that most people in movie audiences pull for the rebels, but in real life most people pull for the First Order.

 

[sethschroeder]

It'll start with airlines (it already started)

Who? Quanta?

As far as other countries no doubt many will require it.

 

[DisneYE]

Who? Quanta?

As far as other countries no doubt many will require it.

Qantas, Singapore Airlines.. I'm against them requiring it, but no doubt its going to become the norm across the airline industry in 2021 and beyond. If that's the case, I'll take it because I miss traveling and cruising.

 

[sethschroeder]

Qantas, Singapore Airlines

Except none of this really will impact a US airlines perspective on requiring it. Yes I understand this is a multinational thread and forum though. I all but expect Europe to have requirements regarding vaccines.

When Southwest, Delta (domestic), AA, or others start to require it then I will start taking notice.

Both of those airlines are out of countries with much more aggressive requirements around COVID right? So seems fairly normal they would have vaccine requirements.

 

[jane01jp]

It looks like the US is at about 10% of its 2020 vaccination goal. About 2.1 million have received the first vaccine and the goal was 20 million.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/31/fauci-us-government-coronavirus-vaccinate-americans

 

[Intr3pid]

It looks like the US is at about 10% of its 2020 vaccination goal. About 2.1 million have received the first vaccine and the goal was 20 million.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/31/fauci-us-government-coronavirus-vaccinate-americans

And the mishaps aren't helping either:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0201231-2vpl2brysjgoffw2qk6kji6z3e-story.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/31/wes...-shot-west-virginia-national-guard-says-.html
Buying up the supplies is one thing. Distributing them among a few hundred million folks with opinions is something at an entirely different level.

 

[jane01jp]

And the mishaps aren't helping either:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0201231-2vpl2brysjgoffw2qk6kji6z3e-story.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/31/wes...-shot-west-virginia-national-guard-says-.html
Buying up the supplies is one thing. Distributing them among a few hundred million folks with opinions is something at an entirely different level.

The sabotage incident in Milwaukee is really crazy.

 

[jane01jp]

And the mishaps aren't helping either:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0201231-2vpl2brysjgoffw2qk6kji6z3e-story.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/31/wes...-shot-west-virginia-national-guard-says-.html
Buying up the supplies is one thing. Distributing them among a few hundred million folks with opinions is something at an entirely different level.

If the vaccination plans get bogged down, the CDC has been researching some other possibilities for isolating vulnerable individuals at the household, neighborhood, or camp levels.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html
Camp/Sector Level:
A group of shelters such as schools, community buildings within a camp/sector (max 50 high-risk individuals per single green zone) where high-risk individuals are physically isolated together.
One entry point is used for exchange of food, supplies, etc. A meeting area is used for residents and visitors to interact while practicing physical distancing (2 meters). No movement into or outside the green zone.

 

[Starwind]

If the vaccination plans get bogged down, the CDC has been researching some other possibilities for isolating vulnerable individuals at the household, neighborhood, or camp levels.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html
Camp/Sector Level:
A group of shelters such as schools, community buildings within a camp/sector (max 50 high-risk individuals per single green zone) where high-risk individuals are physically isolated together.
One entry point is used for exchange of food, supplies, etc. A meeting area is used for residents and visitors to interact while practicing physical distancing (2 meters). No movement into or outside the green zone.

It appears you missed a key part of the introduction to the document you quoted, which sets the context for what they later describe, which is not related to the vaccination plans getting "bogged down" and alternatives they may have to look at domestically. Note the bolding is added by me:

This document presents considerations from the perspective of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) for implementing the shielding approach in humanitarian settings as outlined in guidance documents focused on camps, displaced populations and low-resource settings.1,2 This approach has never been documented and has raised questions and concerns among humanitarian partners who support response activities in these settings.

One can also see later in the document it is clear the context they are talking about...

The national capacity in many of the countries where these settings are located (e.g., Chad, Myanmar, and Syria) is limited.

SW

 

[jane01jp]

It appears you missed a key part of the introduction to the document you quoted, which sets the context for what they later describe, which is not related to the vaccination plans getting "bogged down" and alternatives they may have to look at domestically. Note the bolding is added by me:

This document presents considerations from the perspective of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) for implementing the shielding approach in humanitarian settings as outlined in guidance documents focused on camps, displaced populations and low-resource settings.1,2 This approach has never been documented and has raised questions and concerns among humanitarian partners who support response activities in these settings.

One can also see later in the document it is clear the context they are talking about...

The national capacity in many of the countries where these settings are located (e.g., Chad, Myanmar, and Syria) is limited.

SW

Good clarification. Its a wonder the CDC has time to focus on other countries right now.