The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[wideeyedwonder]

Research shows that if you want to change someone's mind, it is extremely ineffective to take an attack posture, even if you have great facts and arguments...we should be asking how we can educate and persuade most effectively if our end goal is to help the most people.

This.

 

[DCLMP]

It's a good point. Research shows that if you want to change someone's mind, it is extremely ineffective to take an attack posture, even if you have great facts and arguments. It causes the person to double down on their position. I am a very big proponent of the vaccines approved in the U.S., but we should be asking how we can educate and persuade most effectively if our end goal is to help the most people.

It’s very condescending to say that people refusing the vaccine need to be educated. There are a lot of well educated people that have done the research, evaluated their risk from Covid, their risks from the vaccine and have made a well educated decision not to vaccinate themselves.

 

[orum]

It’s very condescending to say that people refusing the vaccine need to be educated. There are a lot of well educated people that have done the research, evaluated their risk from Covid, their risks from the vaccine and have made a well educated decision not to vaccinate themselves.

I think one of the key pieces of information missing in the above calculation is the benefits of the vaccine to the general population around you. That is a big piece that government officials, celebrities, and even people on this board are advocating. There are benefits to society as a whole if we can get above that 70% number, and adding that to the personal risks of the vaccine and personal risks of Covid may change the decision. The decision to get vaccinated has an altruistic component as well as the personal risk/protection one.

When I hear people talk about why they got vaccinated, it often isn't all about protecting them, but about being able to see more vulnerable relatives and protecting those relatives, or it may be about protecting people that are vulnerable that they already have to be around. One of the things I was looking forward to the most was spending time with my parents again. I hadn't seen them in well over a year, but I waited to spend a weekend with them until we were all fully vaccinated. It is a bonus that maybe I will be able to take a cruise later this year.

 

[DCLMP]

I think one of the key pieces of information missing in the above calculation is the benefits of the vaccine to the general population around you. That is a big piece that government officials, celebrities, and even people on this board are advocating. There are benefits to society as a whole if we can get above that 70% number, and adding that to the personal risks of the vaccine and personal risks of Covid may change the decision. The decision to get vaccinated has an altruistic component as well as the personal risk/protection one.

When I hear people talk about why they got vaccinated, it often isn't all about protecting them, but about being able to see more vulnerable relatives and protecting those relatives, or it may be about protecting people that are vulnerable that they already have to be around. One of the things I was looking forward to the most was spending time with my parents again. I hadn't seen them in well over a year, but I waited to spend a weekend with them until we were all fully vaccinated. It is a bonus that maybe I will be able to take a cruise later this year.

If the vulnerable people have been vaccinated and the vaccines work then it shouldn’t matter what anyone else does. I think most of you have very little faith in the vaccines.

 

[orum]

I think most of you have very little faith in the vaccines.

This is a common misconception (and part of the extra data missing from those well educated decisions). Because vaccines are not 100% effective, making sure that the layers of contact around a vulnerable person are also vaccinated protects those vulnerable vaccinated people. Continuing to get this message out to people that don't understand it is important in getting to that higher vaccinated number. Hopefully, we will get there.

 

[JWelch62]

I have tried my best to stay out of this because it is effectively a no-win. BUT, the reason why it matters to others why anyone chooses _not_ to vaccinate all comes down to protection for those that can't get vaccinated, and the prevention of mutations that could escape. Herd immunity is a real thing, and you need a very high percentage of vaccinated individuals to achieve it. All you need to do is look at the resurgence of measles in populations with low vax rates.

 

[tink2424]

Not according to the FDA either. The word 'experimental' never appears in the documentation detailing and defining the EUA process:

Emergency Use Authorization of Medical Products and Related Authorities

It wouldn't really make sense for it to, since the EUA is frequently used to okay approved medical products for an unapproved use during an emergency.

True, the correct term is investigational. On the FDA website investigational = experimental.

Either way until you have full approval you are considered investigational/experimental. I work in clinical research so I know how these things are considered.

 

[DCLMP]

This is a common misconception (and part of the extra data missing from those well educated decisions). Because vaccines are not 100% effective, making sure that the layers of contact around a vulnerable person are also vaccinated protects those vulnerable vaccinated people. Continuing to get this message out to people that don't understand it is important in getting to that higher vaccinated number. Hopefully, we will get there.

We can round and round all day and it still not logical. You only look at thing through you narrow point of view. I guess will just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

 

[tink2424]

Even though the FDA does not consider the vaccines "experimental", people will believe what they will believe.

The real question is, for those that call the vaccine experimental, will that no longer be a blocker to getting it once it receives full approval, which may occur within the next few months? Or will that merely mean they have lost their favorite excuse and then move on to another excuse?

I have heard many people on this forum and other forums claim that if the vaccines get full FDA approval this year, then it was all political and they still don't trust it is safe.

I think it is going to be tough for many people as there are a lot of concerns with the length of these trials as well as some of the ways these trials were conducted. So I think FDA approval will help for some but for others it won't make a difference.

Additionally the CDC & NIH are ignoring natural immunity and the research that supports that no vaccine is needed for those with natural immunity. If you want people to take you seriously and say that you are following the science then you need to actually follow the science.

 

[tink2424]

I think one of the key pieces of information missing in the above calculation is the benefits of the vaccine to the general population around you. That is a big piece that government officials, celebrities, and even people on this board are advocating. There are benefits to society as a whole if we can get above that 70% number, and adding that to the personal risks of the vaccine and personal risks of Covid may change the decision. The decision to get vaccinated has an altruistic component as well as the personal risk/protection one.

When I hear people talk about why they got vaccinated, it often isn't all about protecting them, but about being able to see more vulnerable relatives and protecting those relatives, or it may be about protecting people that are vulnerable that they already have to be around. One of the things I was looking forward to the most was spending time with my parents again. I hadn't seen them in well over a year, but I waited to spend a weekend with them until we were all fully vaccinated. It is a bonus that maybe I will be able to take a cruise later this year.

It's not missing. It just isn't something that we need to take into consideration. If you feel that way then great for you. I don't. There are a lot of things we could push on people since it would protect others or improve society (ie; not allowing any junk food at all in society, limiting how many children people could have, etc.) but we don't because we have freedoms in the US and most of the modern world.

No vaccine comes without risk and I'm sorry but I'm not just going to take that risk for me or my child when I feel that the risk outweighs the benefit. Point, blank, Period!

 

[tink2424]

I have tried my best to stay out of this because it is effectively a no-win. BUT, the reason why it matters to others why anyone chooses _not_ to vaccinate all comes down to protection for those that can't get vaccinated, and the prevention of mutations that could escape. Herd immunity is a real thing, and you need a very high percentage of vaccinated individuals to achieve it. All you need to do is look at the resurgence of measles in populations with low vax rates.

That is the reason - for you. Not everyone feels the same way as you do.

 

[orum]

We can round and round all day and it still not logical. You only look at thing through you narrow point of view. I guess will just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

I am confused on what isn’t logical? If it is less than 100% effective, a vaccinated person can get it. The odds that a vaccinated person can get Covid (if they are one of the small umber who could be infected) also depends one being around someone with covid. The odds of that are quite bit lower if all the people around them are also vaccinated. It is actually pretty simple math/probability. The odds will change as there are less cases out there because even unvaccinated people will start to have a lower probability of having covid than they do today.

This is why it is so important to educate people so they have these additional data point around vaccine effectiveness and herd immunity as it should help with better decisions and outcomes.

 

[pjacobi]

Do you trust your local family doctor? Call him/her and ask if you should get the vaccine.

-Paul

 

[wideeyedwonder]

It’s very condescending to say that people refusing the vaccine need to be educated. There are a lot of well educated people that have done the research, evaluated their risk from Covid, their risks from the vaccine and have made a well educated decision not to vaccinate themselves.

Foregive me, but I think you may have missed the point of the post. Maybe it makes more of the point to delete "educate" and just keep "persuade". Then would you agree with the post?

 

[tink2424]

Foregive me, but I think you may have missed the point of the post. Maybe it makes more of the point to delete "educate" and just keep "persuade". Then would you agree with the post?

Really what should happen is that all the facts are presented to people - the good, the bad & the ugly - & then people should decide for themselves. This is called informed consent and is supposed to be a hallmark of medical treatment.

There is no need to educate, persuade, coerce or forced another person to do something to or with their body - PERIOD.

 

[orum]

It's not missing. It just isn't something that we need to take into consideration. If you feel that way then great for you. I don't. There are a lot of things we could push on people since it would protect others or improve society (ie; not allowing any junk food at all in society, limiting how many children people could have, etc.) but we don't because we have freedoms in the US and most of the modern world.

No vaccine comes without risk and I'm sorry but I'm not just going to take that risk for me or my child when I feel that the risk outweighs the benefit. Point, blank, Period!

This post exactly proves my point. It is looking at the me decision without considering the impact on the people around you. It is the ME vs the WE, and not caring about the impact to others does make this an easier decision to justify, regardless of whether that decision is to vaccinate or not. I know I have some altruistic interest in getting people around me to get vaccinated because I don't want them to get sick, but the main point of the campaign is to prevent large outbreaks. Knowing that someone isn't going to take the impact to others into consideration (the basis for a vaccination campaign) makes it extremely difficult to get on board. Luckily, if we (as a country) are successful at getting broad vaccinations, we can even protect the people who decided not to get vaccinated.

The examples you give aren't contagious, so I am not sure how they apply in this situation. If your neighbor eats a bunch of fast food, they can't give you obesity.

 

[Scalemaster34]

We will see next Fall how things go during traditional Flu season, for those that have gotten the vaccine and those that haven't....

But CDC, Cruise Lines and Port of Call will make their decisions on what THEY feel is best for the public, their employees and their image. Individuals that want to cruise, may have to accept those decisions or go find something else to do.

 

[orum]

We will see next Fall how things go during traditional Flu season, for those that have gotten the vaccine and those that haven't....

But CDC, Cruise Lines and Port of Call will make their decisions on what THEY feel is best for the public, their employees and their image. Individuals that want to cruise, may have to accept those decisions or go find something else to do.

I just wish they would get started. I am getting closer to my date to pick excursions. If the boat leaves, I am planning to be on it.

 

[brentm77]

It’s very condescending to say that people refusing the vaccine need to be educated. There are a lot of well educated people that have done the research, evaluated their risk from Covid, their risks from the vaccine and have made a well educated decision not to vaccinate themselves.

It was certainly not intended to be condescending. I don't think it is condescending to say we should educate people on the benefits of the vaccine, the same as you could say you want to educate people on the risks. That wouldn't offend me in the slightest. I think getting more information is always a good thing. The funny thing is that I was pushing back on treating those who don't want to vaccinate as stupid or calling them names. Maybe you are being a little overly sensitive?

 

[brentm77]

nm