The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[mevelandry]

Peak vaccination is the next area of concern. The 'herd immunity' target of vaccinating 70% of the population looks like a tough nut to crack. At least by this summer.

Here are some charts based on the data from:

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_WRL
Canada

Understandably, Canadians are yet to reach peak vaccination. The pace seems to be picking up actually. It might have to do with the strategy to getting more folks vaccinated than fewer more quickly. There is also an incentive to get one shot before the summer - and to exit those lockdowns.

View attachment 575348

It looks like you tend to level off as you approach the 50% mark, so it will be interesting to see if the Canadians follow the Americans and the Brits into the final stretch.

Of course, not everyone has to be vaccinated. What's a good level to leave it at? Looks like quantity may not be as important as quality:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robert...ated-countries-heres-why-the-us-should-worry/

One more for you... From Quebec (Canada) It is in french but I am sure most will undertand. Our « dashboard » if you look on top, from the middle column to the column on your right, you can see the rates by age group. Keep in mind that people under 55 have only been eligible to get vaccinated starting April 30 (Staggered, new groups being eligible every monday-wednesday-friday, the last group being 18-24 on friday May 14, 2021).We have barely started giving 2nd shots, however, the first shot is very popular, all groups over 60yo have reach 85% or more.

 

[mevelandry]

**oups, double.**

 

[mevelandry]

I was at a family dinner tonight and an interesting conversation came up around vaccines. This could be quite humorous if it wasn't all so real.

The pro-vaccine people think that anit-vax people are crazy for not believing in the vaccine, that one day a mutation will appear and everyone not vaccinated will fall victim to an even more devastating pandemic. Best case, they have life altering side effects from the illness, worst case a huge death toll.

The anti-vaccine people think pro-vax people are insane for trusting an experimental drug that could have long term side effects. Best case, those vaccinated start to develop life altering side effects. Worst case, they become sterile and can't have children, or begin to die from vaccine complications.

Worse case..everyone is right and we are all DOOMED! LOL

I feel like there is a dystopian movie plot in here somewhere.

Sounds like a dream come true for childfree people like us.



But all jokes apart, some experimental drugs/treatment/vaccine has saved the world in the past. We need people experimenting those for medicine to advance. I don’t know that I would have been brave enough to participate in Phase 1-2-3 of the vaccine but once it was autorized by Health Canada, I trusted this to be safe enough.

 

[HiStitch626]

But all jokes apart, some experimental drugs/treatment/vaccine has saved the world in the past. We need people experimenting those for medicine to advance. I don’t know that I would have been brave enough to participate in Phase 1-2-3 of the vaccine but once it was autorized by Health Canada, I trusted this to be safe enough.

The vaccine is not experimental, and you are right vaccines save lives. No one has to get the smallpox vaccine anymore (or die from smallpox) because we eradicated it and we are getting really close on polio.

 

[tink2424]

The vaccine is not experimental, and you are right vaccines save lives. No one has to get the smallpox vaccine anymore (or die from smallpox) because we eradicated it and we are getting really close on polio.

Until the vaccines have full FDA approval they are by definition EXPERIMENTAL.

 

[mevelandry]

Until the vaccines have full FDA approval they are by definition EXPERIMENTAL.

Not according to Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

 

[tink2424]

Not according to Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

Reuters is wrong. This is the whole point of the FDA approval process.

 

[HiStitch626]

Until the vaccines have full FDA approval they are by definition EXPERIMENTAL.

Shouting does not matter. Emergency use authorization and experimental are not the same thing. The vaccine technology in J&J has been used for other vaccines and the technology in Pfizer and Moderna has been developed over many years and passed all required human and animal trials.

 

[Mousequake]

Not according to Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

Not according to the FDA either. The word 'experimental' never appears in the documentation detailing and defining the EUA process:

Emergency Use Authorization of Medical Products and Related Authorities

It wouldn't really make sense for it to, since the EUA is frequently used to okay approved medical products for an unapproved use during an emergency.

 

[jrapps]

Even though the FDA does not consider the vaccines "experimental", people will believe what they will believe.

The real question is, for those that call the vaccine experimental, will that no longer be a blocker to getting it once it receives full approval, which may occur within the next few months? Or will that merely mean they have lost their favorite excuse and then move on to another excuse?

I have heard many people on this forum and other forums claim that if the vaccines get full FDA approval this year, then it was all political and they still don't trust it is safe.

 

[wideeyedwonder]

The latest numbers in the United States:

% of the *total* population that is fully vaccinated : 37%
% of the *total* that have at least one dose : 47.3%

% of adults (over 18) that are fully vaccinated : 47.1%
% of adults (over 18) that have at least one dose : 59.7%

And for those over age 65 and older, fully 84.5% are at least partially vaccinated at this point.

 

[orum]

It is probably somewhere between experimental and fully approved.

The EUA is for vaccines that are far enough along in phase 3 (as detailed in Mousequake's link) to make sure it is A) effective at being a vaccine for what you are trying to block and B) safe for the people that are targeted by the EUA.

Technically anything in science/medicine is part of an experiment. Someone is always doing research on things that have been approved for years.

 

[orum]

The latest numbers in the United States:

% of the *total* population that is fully vaccinated : 37%
% of the *total* that have at least one dose : 47.3%

% of adults (over 18) that are fully vaccinated : 47.1%
% of adults (over 18) that have at least one dose : 59.7%

And for those over age 65 and older, fully 84.5% are at least partially vaccinated at this point.

Does this data show that wisdom does come with age?

 

[wideeyedwonder]

Does this data show that wisdom does come with age?

I don't know. I think it shows that we made a concerted push to get those most susceptible or vulnerable vaccinated first, and it seems to have worked.

I do know that the count of daily new cases in the United States is still falling, even with all of the "re-openings". Los Angeles traffic on weekends is back to being a mess, if that's any sign.

 

[mevelandry]

Reuters is wrong. This is the whole point of the FDA approval process.

Agree to disagree.

 

[AquaDame]

Even once it is fully authorized I believe many who keep referring to the vaccine as 'experimental' (which is their words, not the FDA's as was pointed out above) will continue to wait. Many have said they want the vaccine fully approved AND in use for X# years to be certain there are no long term side effects. I also don't believe that there will be a huge rush once Pfizer announces full approval given that (I'd love to be proven wrong...). Honestly, does anyone think it WON'T get full approval?

 

[TestingH2O]

Even once it is fully authorized I believe many who keep referring to the vaccine as 'experimental' (which is their words, not the FDA's as was pointed out above) will continue to wait. Many have said they want the vaccine fully approved AND in use for X# years to be certain there are no long term side effects. I also don't believe that there will be a huge rush once Pfizer announces full approval given that (I'd love to be proven wrong...). Honestly, does anyone think it WON'T get full approval?

This is well said. I would be very surprised if it didn’t get full approval.

 

[Drfate102]

The thing is, people have fears and those are legitimate to them, maybe not you or others. The best thing is to do education and let them sort it out, not talk down or belittle them. My own Mother, is 72 years old and still working as a nurse who has worked on COVID positive patients, still hasn't gotten the vaccine. She wants to wait. And I can understand that. My wife could have gotten Phizer when it just came out, but she had to wait until they knew more about the food allergy reaction, but she is now fully vaccinated. I got my second shot almost two weeks ago. but also, plagues do end naturally as well and everyone will respond differently to the shots and the level of protection that they provide. Just be patient and understanding.

 

[brentm77]

The thing is, people have fears and those are legitimate to them, maybe not you or others. The best thing is to do education and let them sort it out, not talk down or belittle them. My own Mother, is 72 years old and still working as a nurse who has worked on COVID positive patients, still hasn't gotten the vaccine. She wants to wait. And I can understand that. My wife could have gotten Phizer when it just came out, but she had to wait until they knew more about the food allergy reaction, but she is now fully vaccinated. I got my second shot almost two weeks ago. but also, plagues do end naturally as well and everyone will respond differently to the shots and the level of protection that they provide. Just be patient and understanding.

It's a good point. Research shows that if you want to change someone's mind, it is extremely ineffective to take an attack posture, even if you have great facts and arguments. It causes the person to double down on their position. I am a very big proponent of the vaccines approved in the U.S., but we should be asking how we can educate and persuade most effectively if our end goal is to help the most people.

 

[Mousequake]

Even once it is fully authorized I believe many who keep referring to the vaccine as 'experimental' (which is their words, not the FDA's as was pointed out above) will continue to wait. Many have said they want the vaccine fully approved AND in use for X# years to be certain there are no long term side effects. I also don't believe that there will be a huge rush once Pfizer announces full approval given that (I'd love to be proven wrong...). Honestly, does anyone think it WON'T get full approval?

Very well said. I don't think there's going to be a mad rush once it's approved. Every specialist in the field of vaccines/infectious disease/immunology that I know would be legitimately shocked if it doesn't receive full approval within six months. Something pretty big would have to happen for that to be the case.