The Running Thread - 2021

[Grabnar]

Finally tallied up by Feb totals; not a great month on paper but still accomplished my goals:

Running mileage: 39.12 mi; 19.3 of which were the Princess Challenge
Running time: 6:39:50

Given that this was in Houston and I effectively lost 2 weeks to bad weather, I think this wasn't too bad.

 

[cburnett11]

@Waiting2goback

I have gone to a PT and to a sports Chiro. My wife has been to both of these AND a orthopedic surgeon. In our experience, it's really important to find someone who runs or at least understands people who want to run.

I'm not a Chiro-type person, but that 1 visit was my favorite. He's a fantastic runner and many of my runner group friends go to him. He helped me in 1 visit, showing me some exercises. He also let me know that I wasn't doing any damage running. He did a massage and dry-needled. 1 visit, didn't want me back unless I had more troubles. PT was fine, but I felt like they needed me to keep coming back. She was not a runner per se, but very fit and at least wanted me to run. She focused on my core and basically said all runners that come to her have weak cores.

My wife's ortho was our least favorite. He is not a runner and essentially told her that "someone must be trying to tell her something". In other words, give up running. He's a good guy, but that just seemed like an easy answer. Gave her a steroid shot, no recommended PT and basically said quit. This was maybe 3 years ago right before she decided to go to PT and ended up running 3 halves, a 10k, a 10-miler, and a FULL marathon before COVID got in the way.

Long story short, in my experience, find someone who runs and/or would like to see you running if possible.

 

[meye1099]

f

 

[Waiting2goback]

Caveat: I am not a medical professional and I obviously am not able to make any assessments of your medical situation. With that out of the way... yep, I have a lot of personal experience with back issues, albeit different issues, though similar. I have a fairly significant case of scoliosis and it causes a couple things in tandem: 1. major tightness in my upper back muscles on the "short" side, 2. around a 1/2" height difference between where my shoulders/hips/knees/ankles sit, and 3. compression in my lower vertebrae.

Sitting or standing for any length of time is very painful, and I work at a computer all day. I alternate 20-30 minutes standing/20-30 minutes sitting all day and it helps a LOT to reduce pain and stiffening. I highly recommend this!

A strong core is crucial to me being able to run, so I do yoga and Pilates twice a week. The combination of dynamic stretching plus strengthening helps enormously.

I have seen a chiropractor, but she happens to also be a runner and is more of a sports chiro than a new-agey chiro, if that makes sense. She makes no claims about curing illness with chiro care, but aims to keep people moving as much as possible. She'll do a few adjustments, but much of what she does is massage (via the little gun thingy and a power massager, and electro stim) to reduce the inevitable tightening. During the pandemic, I've been DIY-ing it, though, and have had good results using a TENS machine and a wand power massager. So yes, I think the advice to spend your money on massage vs chiro makes sense, but know that you can also probably do some on your own, once someone helps you pinpoint where you need it.

Running... I find run-walking regularly helps my back quite a bit. Per my chiro's recommendation, I wear very cushioned shoes (Brooks Glycerin) to reduce some impact on my back, since I mostly run on concrete sidewalks, and I run on grass or dirt whenever I can. I religiously foam roll and do some dynamic stretching before and after each run to reduce tightness. I avoid the treadmill as much as I can because the perfectly even surface causes me back pain: I do much better outside, where I can make sure my terrain is constantly changing.

Honestly, I've been in pain more than half my life: it never fully goes away. But per my primary doctor and chiro, it is what it is: my curvature cannot be corrected through surgery, and running isn't causing damage. So medically, I'm clear to run as much as I want, at whatever pain threshold I want to deal with. I actually find that running helps me ignore the pain for a while.

I hope this helps!

Yeah, this helps. I was also told not to do anything more than a 10K after my ankle surgery and I did the 2018 Disney full and I am still here to talk about it. I was just feeling bad for myself when i posted the original message. Have had a tought time of it lately. I have been trapped in the house with 7 kids for the last year doing my job and they are all home schooling. It has been getting to me of late. So when she delivered that news it hit me hard as I was already feeling badly and running it usually my escape, and she was taking that away from me, in my mind.

This PT was a runner. She had to give it up because she has the same back issue but she still does horseback riding. She said for her it was either running or horses and she loves horses more so she said bye to running.

The more I have been thinking about it, I am just going to have to do things differently. I used to just go out for a run and think that's all I needed. No warm ups, no stretching ever. No strength training. I have recently added in strength training and have been doing it consistently. I just need to keep up with stretching and warm ups. If this lets me keep running it will be worth it. I am hoping I don't need to give it up but just change the way I do things. I also need to stop putting so much pressure on myself to get faster. If I can hover around 9:00/pace and run happily I should be happy with that.

I ordered a desk top converter so I can start standing/sitting during the day. It comes Friday.

@Waiting2goback

I have gone to a PT and to a sports Chiro. My wife has been to both of these AND a orthopedic surgeon. In our experience, it's really important to find someone who runs or at least understands people who want to run.

I'm not a Chiro-type person, but that 1 visit was my favorite. He's a fantastic runner and many of my runner group friends go to him. He helped me in 1 visit, showing me some exercises. He also let me know that I wasn't doing any damage running. He did a massage and dry-needled. 1 visit, didn't want me back unless I had more troubles. PT was fine, but I felt like they needed me to keep coming back. She was not a runner per se, but very fit and at least wanted me to run. She focused on my core and basically said all runners that come to her have weak cores.

My wife's ortho was our least favorite. He is not a runner and essentially told her that "someone must be trying to tell her something". In other words, give up running. He's a good guy, but that just seemed like an easy answer. Gave her a steroid shot, no recommended PT and basically said quit. This was maybe 3 years ago right before she decided to go to PT and ended up running 3 halves, a 10k, a 10-miler, and a FULL marathon before COVID got in the way.

Long story short, in my experience, find someone who runs and/or would like to see you running if possible.

I go back for my 2nd visit tonight. I'll see what she gives me for exercises.


I tried running last night. I got to a 1/2 mile and my knees and left ankle were hurting. I am sure it is because I haven't run in a month. But it felt good to start again. I'll give it a try in another day or so and see what happens.

 

[KSellers88]

February totals:
82 Miles
Avg HR: 125
Avg Pace: 9:13
Currently on day 51 of a run streak, my longest ever. I ran three 5ks in February, and I could never be as consistent with my times as I was if I had planned it. All three were within 2 seconds of each other...nowhere near my PR, but I will take consistency 5 months postpartum.

 

[avondale]

February 2021 Totals

• Running
  • 63.5 mi
  • ave pace 11:54 min/mi
  • total time 12.58 hr
  • After spending the first week of the month tapering to my Yeti Challenge, the last three weeks of the month were recovery.
• Tennis
  • 2 hr
  • This is an all-time low! I only played one match this month and nothing else, since it's too cold and there was snow and ice so couldn't play outside. Sad.
• Walking
  • 123.3 mi
  • This is a new PR for me, but I've only been tracking since September.
• Thefts
  • 1
  • This past Sunday I drove to a local park to run on a trail there. I was gone from my car for about an hour. When I returned to my car, I discovered that someone had smashed the front passenger window and stolen my (hidden) purse. What a chain reaction of annoyances and phone calls and paperwork this has caused. Fortunately we got all credit cards canceled before the thief (or thieves) could make any charges.
  • Hopefully I will never get a new PR in this category.

 

[Bree]

February 2021 Totals

• Running
  • 63.5 mi
  • ave pace 11:54 min/mi
  • total time 12.58 hr
  • After spending the first week of the month tapering to my Yeti Challenge, the last three weeks of the month were recovery.
• Tennis
  • 2 hr
  • This is an all-time low! I only played one match this month and nothing else, since it's too cold and there was snow and ice so couldn't play outside. Sad.
• Walking
  • 123.3 mi
  • This is a new PR for me, but I've only been tracking since September.
• Thefts
  • 1
  • This past Sunday I drove to a local park to run on a trail there. I was gone from my car for about an hour. When I returned to my car, I discovered that someone had smashed the front passenger window and stolen my (hidden) purse. What a chain reaction of annoyances and phone calls and paperwork this has caused. Fortunately we got all credit cards canceled before the thief (or thieves) could make any charges.
  • Hopefully I will never get a new PR in this category.

Oh my gosh! That’s terrible

 

[Herding_Cats]

Thefts

• 1
• This past Sunday I drove to a local park to run on a trail there. I was gone from my car for about an hour. When I returned to my car, I discovered that someone had smashed the front passenger window and stolen my (hidden) purse. What a chain reaction of annoyances and phone calls and paperwork this has caused. Fortunately we got all credit cards canceled before the thief (or thieves) could make any charges.
• Hopefully I will never get a new PR in this category.

That's awful. Dealing with all of the bank cards would be bad enough, but getting a replacement drivers license right now seems like it would be the worst.




Piggybacking off of [nearly] everyone's hate for the 5k....a sophomore at a local high school just set the Adidas Indoor Nationals record for a sophomore in the 5k. He's now a national champ, and he ran it in something like 14min 49 seconds. Completely amazing.

 

[steph0808]

February Running

62.2 miles
Time: 11:24:19
Avg Pace: 11:00
Avg HR: 155

16 treadmills run in February because there was just so much snow in PA! Tried to get back on the trail last weekend - even after several days of rain and warm-ish weather, everything was still covered. Maybe soon!

 

[SheHulk]

16 treadmills run in February because there was just so much snow in PA! Tried to get back on the trail last weekend - even after several days of run and warm-ish weather, everything was still covered. Maybe soon!

I live in PA too and our trails are the same. I stopped into my normal park to see how my regular route, a rail trail, is doing -- at least a foot of snow despite whatever melt we had. Makes me less than confident it will be clear anytime soon. There is exactly one park in the area with a paved running/walking trail that is reliably plowed. It has been mobbed all month. I swear every man, woman, child, and dog from the tri-city area is crammed onto that path. I guess one path is better than zero though!

 

[Waiting2goback]

February 2021 Totals

• Running
  • 63.5 mi
  • ave pace 11:54 min/mi
  • total time 12.58 hr
  • After spending the first week of the month tapering to my Yeti Challenge, the last three weeks of the month were recovery.
• Tennis
  • 2 hr
  • This is an all-time low! I only played one match this month and nothing else, since it's too cold and there was snow and ice so couldn't play outside. Sad.
• Walking
  • 123.3 mi
  • This is a new PR for me, but I've only been tracking since September.
• Thefts
  • 1
  • This past Sunday I drove to a local park to run on a trail there. I was gone from my car for about an hour. When I returned to my car, I discovered that someone had smashed the front passenger window and stolen my (hidden) purse. What a chain reaction of annoyances and phone calls and paperwork this has caused. Fortunately we got all credit cards canceled before the thief (or thieves) could make any charges.
  • Hopefully I will never get a new PR in this category.

That stinks. Good thing the damage was limited. That's the good thing about credit cards, you can try and stop them before any major damage is done and most credit card companies forgive purchases if the cards are stolen. Cash is gone no matter what, no fixing that one. : )

 

[Waiting2goback]

I have a Disney question for everyone. Am I the only one that thinks the prices are getting out of control? I have been struggling as of late because I have been in the house for a year with all these kids. My wife told me to go to Disney for the weekend. I have been on 4 solo trips in the past and I love them. I started looking at prices just to see what it would be. For comparison, when i did my ToT race weekend in 2014 I went from Thursday to Monday, stayed at AS Sports, I got a park hopper ticket for all 4 days. My total weekend, including food, was around $1000. Now, i realize prices go up over the years but they have more than doubled in 6 years? I looked last night. If I did Thursday to Monday, with a park hopper and food it would be roughly $2200 (depending on what I got for food). The hotel and tickets would be right at $2000.
Money isn't even the issue. Back in 2014 I was tighter on money as that was when I wan't working because I was still home with the kids, and the divorce was on the horizon. I am working now, the new wife and I have good jobs. I just got had my review yesterday and got a nice bonus. I could spend $2200 for a weekend, I just can't get past the fact that it seems like the value isn't there anymore? Am I the only one thinking this?

 

[MissLiss279]

I have a Disney question for everyone. Am I the only one that thinks the prices are getting out of control? I have been struggling as of late because I have been in the house for a year with all these kids. My wife told me to go to Disney for the weekend. I have been on 4 solo trips in the past and I love them. I started looking at prices just to see what it would be. For comparison, when i did my ToT race weekend in 2014 I went from Thursday to Monday, stayed at AS Sports, I got a park hopper ticket for all 4 days. My total weekend, including food, was around $1000. Now, i realize prices go up over the years but they have more than doubled in 6 years? I looked last night. If I did Thursday to Monday, with a park hopper and food it would be roughly $2200 (depending on what I got for food). The hotel and tickets would be right at $2000.
Money isn't even the issue. Back in 2014 I was tighter on money as that was when I wan't working because I was still home with the kids, and the divorce was on the horizon. I am working now, the new wife and I have good jobs. I just got had my review yesterday and got a nice bonus. I could spend $2200 for a weekend, I just can't get past the fact that it seems like the value isn't there anymore? Am I the only one thinking this?

I do think prices have gone up. Were you comparing the same time of year? I know prices for AS Sports from MW to Star Wars weekend (spring break/Easter time) were a lot different, even in the same year. Also, I’m not sure if you were comparing it to Pop or maybe later this year when one of the All Stars will be open, but Pop is going to be more expensive now than AS because of the Skyliner...
Because renting DVC points at the moment could be iffy because of not being able to cancel easily, I’m not sure I would recommend it right now, but you might look into it. I remember one MW to the next, it cost me a total of ~$150 more than AS Sports the year before for 7 nights. Because there may be an excess of DVC points out there right now with people not traveling due to COVID, you may be able to get a pretty good deal, if your willing to risk the non-cancelable rental.

 

[run.minnie.miles]

I have a Disney question for everyone. Am I the only one that thinks the prices are getting out of control? I have been struggling as of late because I have been in the house for a year with all these kids. My wife told me to go to Disney for the weekend. I have been on 4 solo trips in the past and I love them. I started looking at prices just to see what it would be. For comparison, when i did my ToT race weekend in 2014 I went from Thursday to Monday, stayed at AS Sports, I got a park hopper ticket for all 4 days. My total weekend, including food, was around $1000. Now, i realize prices go up over the years but they have more than doubled in 6 years? I looked last night. If I did Thursday to Monday, with a park hopper and food it would be roughly $2200 (depending on what I got for food). The hotel and tickets would be right at $2000.
Money isn't even the issue. Back in 2014 I was tighter on money as that was when I wan't working because I was still home with the kids, and the divorce was on the horizon. I am working now, the new wife and I have good jobs. I just got had my review yesterday and got a nice bonus. I could spend $2200 for a weekend, I just can't get past the fact that it seems like the value isn't there anymore? Am I the only one thinking this?

I thinking timing and promotions are a big factor in total cost- it's always more expensive on the weekends. We went to WDW at the beginning of Feb and stayed Mon-Fri at Caribbean Beach (4 nights) and had 3 day park hoppers for 2 adults and it was ~$1650 (not counting flights, food, etc) for both of us combined. I always plan my own trips, but it might be worth reaching out to a travel agent to see if they know of other discounts?

But to answer your question, yes. It can be over the top and I don't think they're concerned about pricing people out. I think a lot of things are expensive anymore though- it was more for us to go skiing the same week than to do to WDW.

 

[Herding_Cats]

It's spring break season, so prices are pretty high in general right now. Tickets have gone up at least once a year for the last couple of years. And I am pretty sure they have changed the ticket price structure since 2014 also (more expensive at peak times of year and on weekends.) I you haven't looked at the recent restrictions on park hopping, I would definitely look at that to see if it is "worth" the extra cost for you. Hotwire has had some really good prices on Coronado Springs if you are ok with booking non-refundable rates. If you know you definitely WON'T be cancelling I second checking for DVC point rentals. SIL and I stayed at Jambo for a night for less than a night at CBR when you added in parking and taxes. International owners are pretty much NOT traveling right now, and I was able to rent points from a UK owner.

 

[Kerry1957]

I know we are getting off-topic, but especially if you are driving to Orlando, have you considered staying at an off property hotel? I stayed at the Spring Hill Suites at Flamingo Crossing last month for $84 a night with free parking and breakfast. It's not the Disney bubble, and car rental if you needed it and park parking (I'm and AP so it was free) would eat into the savings, but it's something to consider.

 

[GreatLakes]

I have a Disney question for everyone. Am I the only one that thinks the prices are getting out of control? I have been struggling as of late because I have been in the house for a year with all these kids. My wife told me to go to Disney for the weekend. I have been on 4 solo trips in the past and I love them. I started looking at prices just to see what it would be. For comparison, when i did my ToT race weekend in 2014 I went from Thursday to Monday, stayed at AS Sports, I got a park hopper ticket for all 4 days. My total weekend, including food, was around $1000. Now, i realize prices go up over the years but they have more than doubled in 6 years? I looked last night. If I did Thursday to Monday, with a park hopper and food it would be roughly $2200 (depending on what I got for food). The hotel and tickets would be right at $2000.
Money isn't even the issue. Back in 2014 I was tighter on money as that was when I wan't working because I was still home with the kids, and the divorce was on the horizon. I am working now, the new wife and I have good jobs. I just got had my review yesterday and got a nice bonus. I could spend $2200 for a weekend, I just can't get past the fact that it seems like the value isn't there anymore? Am I the only one thinking this?

Disney prices are, frankly, ridiculous even compared to 5 years ago. I always keep my past travel documents and looking at how prices have crept up over the past decade when compared to inflation it is insane. We will go which is why they can do this but our trips are a bit shorter and we do other Florida things. We also started looking off property. We have to carefully try to justify onsite based on factors other than cost and with our Marriot points it is harder and harder.

 

[jmasgat]

@Waiting2goback Disney prices go up, Disney value goes down. Having gone to WDW at least 25+ times over the last near 30 years (and I'm not a local), I have watched with mounting displeasure the economics of it all. When my kids were young, I would go more than once/year. And working for GM, I had access to discounted tickets, and at one point discounted Disney hotels ($250/nt for a 1BR at OKW, anyone?) . I can still remember paying under $150/nt (discounted) to stay at Wilderness Lodge (and this was probably 12 years ago). Once I would never have considered staying at a value, but now it's Pop for me. Add in the degradation of the experience (entertainment, food quality, etc) and that makes the value of going to WDW even less for me.

Disney will continue to thrive on the backs of those who have never been, and therefore will pay for the experience. I wonder how many people have credit card debt associated with Disney vacations?

 

[DopeyBadger]

QOTW: So I was recently playing around with ways to express my race data, and found a method that looked interesting. Converting all my race times into Daniels VDOT values. This way regardless of distance (mile, 5k, 10k, HM, M), they were all expressed using a comparable numerical value. With the understanding that Daniels VDOT is a sort of "race equivalency". Such that a 4:00 marathon, 1:56 HM, 52:25, 10k, 25:15 5k, and 7:29 mile all give the same VDOT value of 37.9. It also "squished" my Dopey results into a downward linear line which didn't disrupt the overall visual appearance. It was an interesting way to express the data for me to view.

So I was wondering if others would be willing to share what their VDOT race progressions look like. I'd suggest only using races in which you were actively racing hard. Having races that weren't for the purpose of extending yourself probably would make the information harder to interpret. Certainly there's going to be some bounce due to the difficulty of the race environment and course as well, but those things will easily wash out in the big zoomed out picture. You simply plot your date of race against the VDOT value of the race using Daniels calculator (link). For those curious what their data looks like, but don't want to go through the process, you can simply send me a PM with race date, distance, and time. I'll do the work for you.

Where my curiosity lies is when you personally saw a plateauing of progress (or haven't yet) and ultimately what was your VDOT % gain from start to peak. Word of mouth data (which I have yet to find a paper verifying) states VO2max can increase by about 5-15%, or 40%, or some other value in untrained runners to their peak condition (link). VO2max and VDOT are not the same, but I do believe they rely on a correlation relationship as VO2max is one predictor of race performance. Additionally, plateauing of endurance performance gains is suggested to occur around 7500-10000 career miles. Although there is some lagging in your ability to be a good converter from shorter distances to longer distances. So I wanted to see what we showed as a group.

ATTQOTW:

This is my graph. It goes from my first run in June 2012 to my peak performance in Jan 2018 to my most recent races.



I saw two jumps in performance. During my first time using Hansons in 2015 and when I integrated Daniels methodology in the Spring of 2017. But ever since I hit around 7500 career miles I've seen a steady plateauing of my race VDOT values. In total I went from a VDOT of 24.7 (first run), 29.9 (first race), 52.1 (best VDOT in Jan 2018). So my total % gain was (52.1-24.7)/24.7 = 111% from my first run and 74% from my first race. The span from start to peak was about 5 years. The last 3 years have been roughly at the same level.

 

[GreatLakes]

QOTW: So I was recently playing around with ways to express my race data, and found a method that looked interesting. Converting all my race times into Daniels VDOT values. This way regardless of distance (mile, 5k, 10k, HM, M), they were all expressed using a comparable numerical value. With the understanding that Daniels VDOT is a sort of "race equivalency". Such that a 4:00 marathon, 1:56 HM, 52:25, 10k, 25:15 5k, and 7:29 mile all give the same VDOT value of 37.9. It also "squished" my Dopey results into a downward linear line which didn't disrupt the overall visual appearance. It was an interesting way to express the data for me to view.

So I was wondering if others would be willing to share what their VDOT race progressions look like. I'd suggest only using races in which you were actively racing hard. Having races that weren't for the purpose of extending yourself probably would make the information harder to interpret. Certainly there's going to be some bounce due to the difficulty of the race environment and course as well, but those things will easily wash out in the big zoomed out picture. You simply plot your date of race against the VDOT value of the race using Daniels calculator (link). For those curious what their data looks like, but don't want to go through the process, you can simply send me a PM with race date, distance, and time. I'll do the work for you.

Where my curiosity lies is when you personally saw a plateauing of progress (or haven't yet) and ultimately what was your VDOT % gain from start to peak. Word of mouth data (which I have yet to find a paper verifying) states VO2max can increase by about 5-15%, or 40%, or some other value in untrained runners to their peak condition (link). VO2max and VDOT are not the same, but I do believe they rely on a correlation relationship as VO2max is one predictor of race performance. Additionally, plateauing of endurance performance gains is suggested to occur around 7500-10000 career miles. Although there is some lagging in your ability to be a good converter from shorter distances to longer distances. So I wanted to see what we showed as a group.

ATTQOTW:

This is my graph. It goes from my first run in June 2012 to my peak performance in Jan 2018 to my most recent races.

View attachment 560450

I saw two jumps in performance. During my first time using Hansons in 2015 and when I integrated Daniels methodology in the Spring of 2017. But ever since I hit around 7500 career miles I've seen a steady plateauing of my race VDOT values. In total I went from a VDOT of 24.7 (first run), 29.9 (first race), 52.1 (best VDOT in Jan 2018). So my total % gain was (52.1-24.7)/24.7 = 111% from my first run and 74% from my first race. The span from start to peak was about 5 years. The last 3 years have been roughly at the same level.

View attachment 560456

Very interesting. I have Daniels' book so have the hard VDOT tables but that link is easier. Let me grab my race database at home tonight and see what some of my values are. I don't mind sharing them.