The 'Planning Backlash'

[Suvadoo]

The funny thing is that there are locals who post and claim that FP+ is bad for then since all you out if staters have the luxury if booking 60 days ahead.

And since all other discussion points are failing--it's time to shame the locals and their lack of understanding. Because clearly, there is no other explanation for a local to just not get all this required planning. Not only do we have no state income tax--we just flash our DL and walk in like we own the place. And no Floridian ever vacations at Disney. We just all take our kids after school. That's why it is so crowded.

But you claim that you don't need a 60 day booking window to get everything you want and you keep posting what would be available tomorrow if you were going to the parks. As a local, you are able to take advantage the great FP+ reservations. You can also book FP+'s even if there is only a slight chance of going to the parks. Also, if the weather is lousy you can stay home. No problem! Not the same tourists

 

[mickeyluv'r]

This is probably going a little off topic but it seems to be a case of not enough supply and too much demand. When that happens it means that pricing system is out of whack. Should WDW tickets be double the price they are now? Would that help to balance the supply and demand?

I think this is indeed part of the problem. MK doesn't have anywhere near enough table service capacity to meet demand.

It really seems to me that MK could use another character meal.

Clearly, a Frozen character meal would be huge, even if it didn't include the princesses. You could have trolls pop up periodically, a dancing Olaf room, and Ksristoff greeting guests. Add a way that guests could 'freeze' something- like their table maybe? and it would be amazing. I've long thought a Tarzan character meal would be fun (though I'd put it in DTD. ) Because after all, Tarzan Rocks!

Instead, Disney worked to create a system where they cram as many people through the door as possible, and made the food as industrial as possible. The food at WDW has been reduced to the cheapo trifecta: FAT-STARCH-salt/sugar. Take the new fried croissant thing. Eww!

Menu changes happen in increments, so most guests don't notice.

 

[omurice]

In mid-July they moved park hours and EMH around for August and September, and that was far to late to move some dining, and even too late to move a few FP+.

My thought is, if Disney absolutely must require the guests to move like clockwork in the vacation machine - work with us a little:
1) Move dining to 60 days out, and no changing park hours (unless it's to expand evening hours), and no moving EMH at all, less than 65 days out.

2) As for FP+, this could revert to be exactly what it was before but in electronic form (with the app and kiosks). To me it seems like this is what Disneyland is going to get soon for FP+.


My hope however is, the "NEXT" NextGen project someday is going to be some genius who figures out how to change things so the vacation machine does not require guests to behave as machines ourselves, but still have a decent experience.

We should not all need to bring spreadsheets into the parks, much as I like a good spreadsheet

 

[Luckybee]

I think this is indeed part of the problem. MK doesn't have anywhere near enough table service capacity to meet demand.

It really seems to me that MK could use another character meal.

Or how about even a good quality table service restaurant with a la carte dining without characters but nice surroundings.

It boggles my mind that if we want a full dinner with reservations we have a choice of Cindy's(been there and for adults it's a one off), BOG (with all the ressie issues), Tony's(eh), and Liberty(hmmm). I've left out the Plaza because although it is decent it isn't the food type Im discussing.

We had to give up our BOG dinner for May with our friends because of timing. We are now...ta da...taking them to CR which would not exactly be my choice outside the park. Would it really hurt Disney to have an Epcot calibre restaurant ie :Le Cellier, Monsieur Paul's etc at MK. It could be beautifully themed and my guess it too would be jammed but at least with 2 choices more people would have a chance.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Or how about even a good quality table service restaurant with a la carte dining without characters but nice surroundings.

Absolutely! I threw in Tarzan as a joke.

I think It is just dumb how bad Tony's is. I've had much better Italian in Orlando offsite. Delicious Italian food is pretty mainstream USA.

I truly think the parks could easily expand the current offerings. I dunno, I have lots of options where I live, and maybe folks from some parts of the USA aren't ready for Middle Eastern kebabs, or pho soup, but I think many Americans would love to see more diverse international offerings at WDW.

The trouble is, those ingredients would probably cost more.

I mean Tony's is currently charging how much for $3 of spaghetti and meatballs?

 

[dmband]

I can see why you and others have valid reason to have issues with FP+, and you make some good points. I'm not picking on you here either, but your comment above triggered a thought I've always had regarding people's dislike of FP+.

Putting the flexibility issue aside, which is a valid gripe, I think we can probably mostly agree, even without FP+ in the picture, between Extra Magic Hours, park opening and closing times, entertainment schedules, ADRs for meals (which many people make long before the FP+ 60 day mark), crowd calendars, recommended park days on the various blogs.......well, most people have a very firm idea of what park they are going to be in on what day, no? And they likely know this before the 60 day FP+ window opens.

Your analogy to meals is interesting, as there are a myriad of choices. But I'm not sure the analogy really applies to FP+.

So you know what park you are going to be in.....is it really that much of a mystery to figure out what FP+ to grab? Unlike dinner, there are not a myriad of choices. You grab something you know you are going to ride one way or another, and now you've got that guarantee in your back pocket. It doesn't mean you can't, and won't, ride other things. I thinks it's really as simple as that.

That's just it
I don't know what park I want to be in 2 months ahead of time and here are two examples of how being "booked" can cost you time.
For example, let's say you have a four day water park ticket
what if we plan on doing mon, tues, wed in the main parks
Followed by thurs at a water park and then Friday at a main park
So you select your fp+ and then it rains on thurs. You can not just switch thurs and Fridays plans without having basically no fp+ selection left and then losing out on possible good fp+ for Friday.
Or. Have you ever been going to a bus stop and see the one you wanted pulling away?
Instead of just missing a bus and then sitting there for 20+ mins for the next because that's where your fp+ are booked you can not just jump on a bus that comes without having no fp+ and possible losing the ones you have booked.

Basically what I am saying is in the old fp system you could check fast and easy what your plans may or may not have been with ease
Under fp+ not so without the cost of losing time standing in lines

 

[nugov2]

You know, I've never been there but I always hear good things about Discovery Cove. People will tell me "It's great! Yes, it's expensive but it's never crowded because they limit the number of people they admit each day".

They aren't really complaining about the price because they've been able to rationalize the reason for it. And they were able to rationalize the reason for it because they realized tangible benefit.

Honestly, I never really gave the SW parks a thought, but my dd would love that. We were trying to plan the snorkel in Epcot tour and I am thinking for the little bit more it might be worth it to go to Discovery Cove instead. My youngest isn't old enough to swim with the dolphins, but still think this might be something we would like. We wouldn't have time to go to the other parks, but this looks like fun. Thanks for this info, I wouldn't have looked into it otherwise!!

 

[ArwenMarie]

Absolutely! I threw in Tarzan as a joke.

I think It is just dumb how bad Tony's is. I've had much better Italian in Orlando offsite. Delicious Italian food is pretty mainstream USA.

I truly think the parks could easily expand the current offerings. I dunno, I have lots of options where I live, and maybe folks from some parts of the USA aren't ready for Middle Eastern kebabs, or pho soup, but I think many Americans would love to see more diverse international offerings at WDW.

The trouble is, those ingredients would probably cost more.

I mean Tony's is currently charging how much for $3 of spaghetti and meatballs?

And it's such a great location. It's mind-boggling that they can't upgrade the food a bit.

 

[estherhead]

The requirements for the Capitol and the White House are for national security reasons, and running background checks on those who are getting in those buildings. I see a huge difference between that and what Disney is doing. I'm not saying it's any more convenient, but I personally don't want anyone being able to just walk up to the Capitol or the White House (especially these days) and get in without proper background checks. I can deal with things like this for safety reasons. What Disney is doing has nothing to do with safety

This is why I didn't use it in my original post about Paris and the Vatican. I knew this was the reason it is why it is. However, it is a trip that requires flexibility and planning and many of us are willing to do it. And I agree about safety. However the point of this thread in general is are people willing to plan for a vacation or is Disney asking too much?

So what we are really saying is if we agree with what we assume are the reasons there has to be planning (like the Capitol), then it's a great idea. But if we disagree with our assumed reasons, then we're out.

We also discount the opinion of anyone who: doesn't have kids aged 10-12, is retired, lives anywhere within an 8 hour drive, has been more than once in a 10 year time frame, likes sleeping in, enjoys swimming at resorts, etc etc.

As for having a 7D fp+ locking you in, there are just a few rides like that. The rest of the days are flexible. Like a cruise. You have 2-3 shore excursions you REALLY want to do that fill up quickly and the rest of the time you are spontaneous. Millions cruise every year so obviously people are cool with that.

 

[Mambo Junkie]

In mid-July they moved park hours and EMH around for August and September, and that was far to late to move some dining, and even too late to move a few FP+.

My thought is, if Disney absolutely must require the guests to move like clockwork in the vacation machine - work with us a little:
1) Move dining to 60 days out, and no changing park hours (unless it's to expand evening hours), and no moving EMH at all, less than 65 days out.

2) As for FP+, this could revert to be exactly what it was before but in electronic form (with the app and kiosks). To me it seems like this is what Disneyland is going to get soon for FP+.


My hope however is, the "NEXT" NextGen project someday is going to be some genius who figures out how to change things so the vacation machine does not require guests to behave as machines ourselves, but still have a decent experience.

We should not all need to bring spreadsheets into the parks, much as I like a good spreadsheet

That would really bother me, planning for EMH or a pre rope drop ADR and Disney changes the hours. I read where a lot of people in November/December had this happen to them. They were so happy with their hard to get early ADRs only to have them negated by early park openings. I'm not an early riser so it wouldn't happen to me , but for those who value the early mornings with few people in the parks, it's a shame when Disney does this to them.

 

[SmithSmith]

On this week's podcast
when MB and FP+ was announced for DLR, Kevin made the remark like, "good, why should We be the only ones who have to suffer." And the host of this board cut off the discussion by saying he likes MB's and FP+. End of discussion. He has done this on several occasions. MB and FP+ dissenters are not allowed to speak or the subject is quickly changed by the host.

I haven't bothered to watch the podcast since December, so my info may be out of date, but to my knowledge, Kevin and John admitted they had not gone to the parks in a VERY long time. I'm not aware of them having any experience with FP+, so that could be a very valid reason for Pete (or whomever was hosting) to gloss over their opinions.

 

[Duchie]

I have to admit I'm still skeptical about the new system. This is going to be our first trip since FP+ went live (last time was when they were rolling them out in "test") and I'm not sure I'm going to like it. We were supposed to have someone new going with us and now I'm glad she's not. It just seems like it's going to suck all the fun out of the trip..... but we'll see.

 

[Laketravis]

On this week's podcast when MB and FP+ was announced for DLR, Kevin made the remark like, "good, why should We be the only ones who have to suffer." And the host of this board cut off the discussion by saying he likes MB's and FP+. End of discussion. He has done this on several occasions. MB and FP+ dissenters are not allowed to speak or the subject is quickly changed by the host.

Thanks for posting this. It certainly helps me to understand some things I've observed lately.

 

[mummabear]

On this week's podcast
when MB and FP+ was announced for DLR, Kevin made the remark like, "good, why should We be the only ones who have to suffer." And the host of this board cut off the discussion by saying he likes MB's and FP+. End of discussion. He has done this on several occasions. MB and FP+ dissenters are not allowed to speak or the subject is quickly changed by the host.

Have I missed something? I have done a quick google and can't find any news about MB/FP+ being introduced in Cali.
Do you have a link about this, I am interested in hearing more.

 

[Angel Ariel]

However the point of this thread in general is are people willing to plan for a vacation or is Disney asking too much?

I disagree that that is what this thread is asking. I think this thread is asking what *level* of planning for a Disney trip is asking too much?

ALl of us are here on the DIS, reading theme parks attractions and strategies. That in and of itsel fis 1 level of planning. Choosing what parks/day is another level of planning. Adding ADRs is another level. FP+ is adding another level.

So what we are really saying is if we agree with what we assume are the reasons there has to be planning (like the Capitol), then it's a great idea. But if we disagree with our assumed reasons, then we're out.

That's not what I'm trying to say, though I can see how it came across that way.

I see planning to visit the Capitol as a similar "level" of planning as choosing what park to be in each day. That's an entirely different level of planning than choosing what ride at what time. Most people don't have a problem with the park/day level of planning.

We also discount the opinion of anyone who: doesn't have kids aged 10-12, is retired, lives anywhere within an 8 hour drive, has been more than once in a 10 year time frame, likes sleeping in, enjoys swimming at resorts, etc etc.

I don't know who this "we" is here, but I'm not discounting anyone's opinion.

​

As for having a 7D fp+ locking you in, there are just a few rides like that. The rest of the days are flexible. Like a cruise. You have 2-3 shore excursions you REALLY want to do that fill up quickly and the rest of the time you are spontaneous. Millions cruise every year so obviously people are cool with that.

We only have 4 days in the parks with our AFS tickets. So we can do FP+ in each park once, basically (or choose to double up in MK and skip FP in another park entirely). People who have longer stays do have more flexibility, but when you have a short trip to begin with, and you find that the FP+ availability for changing things around while you're there isn't great (which it wasn't for us on our trip), then it does take away from the spontaneity moreso than we personally experienced in the past.

 

[estherhead]

I disagree that that is what this thread is asking. I think this thread is asking what *level* of planning for a Disney trip is asking too much? ALl of us are here on the DIS, reading theme parks attractions and strategies. That in and of itsel fis 1 level of planning. Choosing what parks/day is another level of planning. Adding ADRs is another level. FP+ is adding another level. That's not what I'm trying to say, though I can see how it came across that way. I see planning to visit the Capitol as a similar "level" of planning as choosing what park to be in each day. That's an entirely different level of planning than choosing what ride at what time. Most people don't have a problem with the park/day level of planning. I don't know who this "we" is here, but I'm not discounting anyone's opinion.

I'm sorry for what seemed like a personal barb there. You have not discounted people's opinions. I was generalizing in response to my overall frustration with this topic.

I do have to say that people DO have a problem with what park/day. They want to do whatever they want whenever they want with no lines spontaneously. They don't want to be locked into a certain park on a certain day 1-2 months ahead. That's exactly what is being protested. And my point is 18 million people visit MK each year. 18 million people visit DC each year. If you want to do the really cool stuff at either, you have to lock that in via the computer months in advance.

 

[SmithSmith]

And here is where price discussion fails. All that really matters is the total cost of the trip. Not the individual components. One pays $700 to stay at the GF and $350 for their park pass and gets to see A&E for "free". One pays $500 to stay at the Marriott Marquis and has to pay $200 to see the Broadway show. What are we accomplishing with this?


Pretty much every day from the time that they premiered in the MK through the summer, and again during the holidays.


It can be three hours but typically is less. They don't start selling tickets until 4 hours before the show, so by definition, one cannot wait in a 4 hour line. And they have a "real time" app showing availability, so there is no need to get into a really long line if what you are looking for is not available.

Are you comparing the Marriott Marquis to the Grand Floridian?

 

[Suvadoo]

Thanks for posting this. It certainly helps me to understand some things I've observed lately.

They also have a new team member, JL, who doesn't like the FP+, and she gets cut off when she tries to voice a dissenting opinion. If they had a FP+ discussion on the show, I don't know if the host would allow people to really say what they want.

On the 1/6/15 DLR show, the podcasters were very vocal about how much they disliked FP+ when they visited WDW and they thought there would be a lot of FP+ opposition at DLR.

 

[Suvadoo]

I'm sorry for what seemed like a personal barb there. You have not discounted people's opinions. I was generalizing in response to my overall frustration with this topic.

I do have to say that people DO have a problem with what park/day. They want to do whatever they want whenever they want with no lines spontaneously. They don't want to be locked into a certain park on a certain day 1-2 months ahead. That's exactly what is being protested. And my point is 18 million people visit MK each year. 18 million people visit DC each year. If you want to do the really cool stuff at either, you have to lock that in via the computer months in advance.

The only thing I've ever locked in on a trip to DC is specific tours of the White House, the Capitol, Supreme Court. I think this would be comparable to arranging ADR's. The majority of our time in DC has been spent visiting the Smithsonsian Museums and the various monuments; none of which has required any advance reservation times. As a matter of fact, we decided which Smithsonian to visit when we were on the sidewalk. I would compare that to being a the bus stop at a WDWresort. All DC required was a priority list of must-do's and a few reservations, but it was never to the extent that WDW currently suggests.

 

[Suvadoo]

Have I missed something? I have done a quick google and can't find any news about MB/FP+ being introduced in Cali.
Do you have a link about this, I am interested in hearing more.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3365023