The 'Planning Backlash'

[Angel Ariel]

I didn't want to bring up DC because I thought people would jump all over me saying it's totally different, but my daughter and I are going on a short little trip that shouldn't require much planning, at least in my imaginary world. In reality I had to write a letter to my local congressman (who I first had to figure out who that was) and request that he request a Capitol tour and White House tour. This had to be done months in advance and I had to take whatever times he gave me. He made it in the pm for me as he said White House tours generally happen in the morning and we won't know if we are allowed to go or not go until 3 days before hand. If we get a White House tour invite and it is in the afternoon for some odd reason, we'll have to choose between the two. But they need to know where we are staying and what we are doing before they can agree. And our social security numbers. If you are 1 minute late your 6 months of planning are for naught as they won't let you in. Also if ANY thing happens in the world at large that is different than normal, all your plans get cancelled.

I've visited DC many times and never been in the Capitol or White House because I never get invited and/or something happens where it all gets cancelled.

I'm not bitter about this, I understand. I'm just saying all kinds of travel requires planning and has to be flexible for abrupt changes.

The requirements for the Capitol and the White House are for national security reasons, and running background checks on those who are getting in those buildings.

I see a huge difference between that and what Disney is doing. I'm not saying it's any more convenient, but I personally don't want anyone being able to just walk up to the Capitol or the White House (especially these days) and get in without proper background checks. I can deal with things like this for safety reasons. What Disney is doing has nothing to do with safety

 

[anniemae]

Everything in life is a trade-off. Why does anyone expect this should be different? If you want to change your plans, you can. You just have to give up something else in return. In your example, that would be your 7DMT FP and $10 a head. In your inital plan, yes, you presumably are giving up some measure of flexibility for the ability to ensure you ride 7DMT (barring a mechnical shut down or something) with a minimal wait, and get to eat at BOG. That's the trade-off. It's up to each indivual family to decide what's most important to them, what they're willing to forego to acheive what's important to them, and proceed accordingly.

Well of course there is a trade off, my point is that there is not a lot of "wiggle room" with disney planning once everything is all set. Yes, we could have forgone the 7DMT and BOG lunch but we spent a lot of money on airline tickets, hotels, park tickets etc. and we would not be returning any time soon, so we were going to do those things. These were things we were looking forward to.

I feel there is no room for changing plans on a whim if we woke up tired and wanted to do a DD day instead. We could change as you said, but we would be missing out on something important to us. It's not like we could say, "Lets sleep more and just go to the park at 2:00 and ride the 7DMT with a short wait, and just walk up and do BOG dinner." Which is why I feel kind of "locked in" to a park months in advance, its not easy to just "change plans if you fee like it."

 

[JimmyV]

The requirements for the Capitol and the White House are for national security reasons, and running background checks on those who are getting in those buildings.

I see a huge difference between that and what Disney is doing. I'm not saying it's any more convenient, but I personally don't want anyone being able to just walk up to the Capitol or the White House (especially these days) and get in without proper background checks. I can deal with things like this for safety reasons. What Disney is doing has nothing to do with safety

Maybe the guy who hopped the fence was beta-testing the new FP+ option!

 

[Angel Ariel]

Mostly, some people (myself not included) are upset they can no longer hoard/accumulate FP tickets (including multiple ones for the same attraction) throughout the day and then use them all in succession towards the end of the day.

Can only speak for myself, but we never used FPs outside their window, or hoarded them throughout the day. This has nothing at all to do with my view on FP+.

 

[redsbe]

For some that may be an option. For our extended family, it is not. My brother was the poster-child for anti-Disney. He hates crowds, lines...while our experiences as kids led me to love Disney, they did the opposite for him.

He *loved* our last trip there. And when you ask him why, he will unequivocally tell you it was because of FP. Suggesting planning a Disney trip to him that included no FP would result in him pretty much saying he wouldn't go.

Others may see it differently, they may not agree with him - but that is the reality I deal with when I plan trips for our extended family. Since I want *everyone* to have an enjoyable time, that entails using FP+.



FTR, my post wasn't about complaining or being negative. The OP of the thread posited a question about how hard can choosing 3 rides be, if you already know what park you will be in. I was merely answering his question by demonstrating what questions/thought need to be put in when you're dealing with a large family with children's ages (and heights) vary widely. If we were just traveling with our nuclear family, the 3 of us, choosing 3 rides is easy. With 9 people, and 3 children who can't all ride the same things, it requires more thought.

I never once said that you needed FP+ to experience the rides and attractions. And, if you read my post, I did detail out the extent of what our advance planning was for our last extended family trip to WDW. The extent of our *in park time* that was planned before our arrival in FL was what park to be in on which day, and 1 ADR/day. That's it.

If your previous planning involved what park to be in on which day and 1 ADR/day, how is identifying 3 FP+ and booking, even though they are not the only rides/attraction all members in your party would prefer, but they are only the start. The reality is that unless you arrive in the middle of the day on one of the busiest days of the year, each WDW park really only has 3 rides/attractions that FP+ provides the best advantage to pre-book, your party can still enjoy plenty of rides and events in any WDW without FP+. With such a large and diverse group planning is always been required and such planning even now beyond the 3 FP+ booked is going to require planning to ensure everyone gets to enjoy what they like. Before FP+, and even before FP-, you still had the challenge and need to plan all the individual needs of each member of your party and at least with FP+ you can lock in and assure those three experiences, that depending on day, time and crowds you may not have been able to do so before. Remember FP+ ONLY gets you 3 bookings (and possible chance to add 4, 5 through out the day), FP+ will not solve (nor did FP- or days without any FPs) your challenge of trying to avoid waits for every different ride each member of your party with require, that has and still does require advanced planning.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I thought this thread was going to be about the reaction I get from family when I tell them the penalties we'll incur if my senior citizen parents don't feel well enough to follow the pans I made six months before our trip.

Or perhaps what to say to a family member who says, "You know. I don't feel like eating at BOG/'Ohana tonight. I'd rather:

a.) not face another large buffet
b.) spend less money
c.) eat at a different time
d.) not worry that we've been waiting half an hour for a bus to arrive
e.) not worry that there's a torrential downpour right now
e.) not arrive to a signature dinner dripping wet w/my spouse complaining that her dress is ruined


I don't think me saying, "Well Disney has a right to make money" is going to fly.

 

[Shaden]

If your previous planning involved what park to be in on which day and 1 ADR/day, how is identifying 3 FP+ and booking, even though they are not the only rides/attraction all members in your party would prefer, but they are only the start. The reality is that unless you arrive in the middle of the day on one of the busiest days of the year, each WDW park really only has 3 rides/attractions that FP+ provides the best advantage to pre-book, your party can still enjoy plenty of rides and events in any WDW without FP+. With such a large and diverse group planning is always been required and such planning even now beyond the 3 FP+ booked is going to require planning to ensure everyone gets to enjoy what they like. Before FP+, and even before FP-, you still had the challenge and need to plan all the individual needs of each member of your party and at least with FP+ you can lock in and assure those three experiences, that depending on day, time and crowds you may not have been able to do so before. Remember FP+ ONLY gets you 3 bookings (and possible chance to add 4, 5 through out the day), FP+ will not solve (nor did FP- or days without any FPs) your challenge of trying to avoid waits for every different ride each member of your party with require, that has and still does require advanced planning.

Three things immediately come to mind.

1) There IS a difference between planning what park you are going to be in and what rides you want to do at what time and in what order up to 60 days in advance. Heck even the day before for us would be too much on many trips. Just not our style.

2) Complexity of planning, and the stress of planning does not increase linearly, especially when things are interdependent. Booking a, the, b where b depends on a, then c where c depends on b and a, then d where d depends on c b and a and so on, the difficulty/complexity/stress of the planning actually increases exponentially. So yes, for many people adding one more layer to an already fairly layered planning of a trip can be a large increase in the planning, or might just be the straw that breaks the back.

3) I know your big tag line is "you don't HAVE to use FP+" and this is superficially true, however, due to the increased wait times caused by FP+ people who opt out of it now pay a larger penalty. This itself is a pretty poor decision to make: Do I use FP+ which I do not like, and I find too confining, or do I wing it and know that I am going to face increased SB times due to FP+ and the fact that I am not using it ? Pretty easy to understand why some people wouldn't like this, and also why your assertion is literally true, but in practicality is not, it leaves out a considerable piece of the picture.
(Yes yes, usual caveat, on low crowd days its always possible there will be low SB times, this is and was always true, but in general and on average, wait times have increased for a significant number of rides.)

 

[Angel Ariel]

If your previous planning involved what park to be in on which day and 1 ADR/day, how is identifying 3 FP+ and booking, even though they are not the only rides/attraction all members in your party would prefer, but they are only the start.

I have already described this.

The reality is that unless you arrive in the middle of the day on one of the busiest days of the year, each WDW park really only has 3 rides/attractions that FP+ provides the best advantage to pre-book, your party can still enjoy plenty of rides and events in any WDW without FP+.

1. I have never said rides and events can't be enjoyed without FP+. Please stop responding to me as though I have.

2. WRT "really only having 3 rides/attractions that FP+ provides the best advantage to pre-book" - all I am going to say is that "providing the best advantage" is very family-specific. I can guarantee you we will have FP+ for Buzz Lightyear. Why? Not because it's a great advantage, but because my 6 y/o nephew will want to ride it over and over, and everyone else will appreciate at least 1 ride where we don't have to wait 30 mins for it. It won't be the "best advantage" FP+ according to any kind of measuring here - but it will be best *for our family* which is all I care about. And yes, I'm sure we'll head to it at RD one one of our MK days also (or hit it at night after the fireworks, when re-riding is as easy as at RD).

With such a large and diverse group planning is always been required and such planning even now beyond the 3 FP+ booked is going to require planning to ensure everyone gets to enjoy what they like.

Please tell me where I said planning *wasn't* required? We did plan.

We just didn't plan out our *in park time* before arriving in FL. Why is that so seemingly difficult to believe? We might look at a park map the night before going into a park and decide what rides we wanted to hit over the course of the day, and where we wanted to head first - but that was all done in Florida, at WDW not months before the trip. And we did not ever follow any kind of touring plan or ridemax plan. Not my family's style.

Before FP+, and even before FP-, you still had the challenge and need to plan all the individual needs of each member of your party and at least with FP+ you can lock in and assure those three experiences, that depending on day, time and crowds you may not have been able to do so before.

And as I said, we did that before - in Florida. We have never been in a situation where we *couldn't* experience certain things before. FPs were always available while we were in the park. The normal 3 (Soarin, TSMM, TT) would run out while we were there, but we never had issues *obtaining* them. While we rarely made RD itself, we were usually in a park by 1 hr after opening, and never ran into a situation where FP were unavailable. On those trips, we did little park hopping, so having a far out return time was inconsequential.

Remember FP+ ONLY gets you 3 bookings (and possible chance to add 4, 5 through out the day), FP+ will not solve (nor did FP- or days without any FPs) your challenge of trying to avoid waits for every different ride each member of your party with require, that has and still does require advanced planning.

I am well aware of how many FP+ bookings we get, thank you.

As to your assertion that "FP+ will not solve your challenge of trying to avoid waits for every different ride each member of your party will require" - not once did I say that was what our challenge was. You have added that assumption yourself. My first post in this thread was discussing the thoughts, questions that need to be answered, and planning that FP+ had added to our overall planning.

I never once said I was trying to avoid waits for everything our family wants to do. What my point was, in that post, is that there are many different things that now have to be thought about/considered/answered *in order to decide* what 3 FP+ to get. My post was about the thought and time put into weighing what those options are, and deciding which of them to follow through with, NOT "how do I avoid lines for everything". The questions I posed in that post were questions that, on our last trip (before FP+), were not questions that needed to be answered *prior to being in Florida, or in a park.*. It isn't that they weren't answered previously, but that it did not need to be addressed until we were actually there.

My post was directly answering the question the OP raised of "if you've already chosen your parks/day, how much does it really take to decide on your 3 FP+ day". The ONLY thing my post was a reply to was an answer to that question for *our* family. It may be different for your family, and that's great, truly. I'm not about to tell you how you tour or what your family's needs are are wrong. I would simply appreciate the same.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Perhaps l'll calm them down by saying, "Your annoyance is hyperbole and self inflicted anxiety":

I bet most wouldn't even notice. The stress and anxiety over rigid planning is self inflicted. This hyperbole...

I also find for us, the unexpected happens. Gee, sometimes we walk all the way to the boat launch dock, and realize the temps have dropped and someone wants to go back for a sweater, or a purse they forgot. One of the kids suddenly has to use the restroom, or we're stuck on a ride, in line that's longer than posted. Someone slips and falls (has happened more than once), or worse, suddenly vomits, or sat down on something like melted chocolate, or spilled a colorful beverage on white shorts.

If you travel with extended family those things happen - often.

Up until recently they were no big deal. If we missed our FP window by 20minutes, no big deal, they let us on a little late.

The last few years, we did live with ADR's, but before that- we didn't make them. Those days were far less stressful.

I guess I resent feeling stressed that we can't control how long it will take us to get from point A to point B.

I truly don't understand when guests say and believe this.

What do you mean by "left with nothing"?

I mean when I talk to the concierge desk and they tell me, "No, I don't see any availability for your party size." Or maybe they say, "There's nothing available until 9:30pm" Or maybe while I'm in Epcot they say the only available places to eat are in DTD. or when my family says something like , "We don't know what Moroccan food is." Or "We tried that place and we all hated it."

but then, perhaps you don't go to WDW with extended family.

All of the above have happened.

granted, organizing extended family is often like herding cats on a good day.

I pretty much feel, Disney has made it impossible, or at least difficult to the point where a trip would be miserable.

I don't want to a week yelling at everyone.

 

[Laketravis]

Or maybe they say, "There's nothing available until 9:30pm"

Well, there ya go! See, you were given a choice but you chose to be unreasonable and not accept it!

Seriously though, all valid points. It's often difficult for others to appreciate how external factors can come into play if they've never experienced them first hand.

 

[Luckybee]

Perhaps l'll calm them down by saying, "Your annoyance is hyperbole and self inflicted anxiety":


I also find for us, the unexpected happens. Gee, sometimes we walk all the way to the boat launch dock, and realize the temps have dropped and someone wants to go back for a sweater, or a purse they forgot. One of the kids suddenly has to use the restroom, or we're stuck on a ride, in line that's longer than posted. Someone slips and falls (has happened more than once), or worse, suddenly vomits, or sat down on something like melted chocolate, or spilled a colorful beverage on white shorts.

If you travel with extended family those things happen - often.

Up until recently they were no big deal. If we missed our FP window by 20minutes, no big deal, they let us on a little late.

The last few years, we did live with ADR's, but before that- we didn't make them. Those days were far less stressful.

I guess I resent feeling stressed that we can't control how long it will take us to get from point A to point B.



I mean when I talk to the concierge desk and they tell me, "No, I don't see any availability for your party size." Or maybe they say, "There's nothing available until 9:30pm" Or maybe while I'm in Epcot they say the only available places to eat are in DTD. or when my family says something like , "We don't know what Moroccan food is." Or "We tried that place and we all hated it."

but then, perhaps you don't go to WDW with extended family.

All of the above have happened.

granted, organizing extended family is often like herding cats on a good day.

I pretty much feel, Disney has made it impossible, or at least difficult to the point where a trip would be miserable.

I don't want to a week yelling at everyone.

We don't travel with extended family...and after reading your post Im really really really glad about that. (Kidding )

In all seriousness though great post which will, perhaps, allow those who believe planning with fp+ is a piece of cake understand that there is no "one size fits all" Disney guest.

 

[JanaDee]

I thought this thread was going to be about the reaction I get from family when I tell them the penalties we'll incur if my senior citizen parents don't feel well enough to follow the pans I made six months before our trip.

Or perhaps what to say to a family member who says, "You know. I don't feel like eating at BOG/'Ohana tonight. I'd rather:

a.) not face another large buffet
b.) spend less money
c.) eat at a different time
d.) not worry that we've been waiting half an hour for a bus to arrive
e.) not worry that there's a torrential downpour right now
e.) not arrive to a signature dinner dripping wet w/my spouse complaining that her dress is ruined


I don't think me saying, "Well Disney has a right to make money" is going to fly.

 

[erc]

This is probably going a little off topic but it seems to be a case of not enough supply and too much demand. When that happens it means that pricing system is out of whack. Should WDW tickets be double the price they are now? Would that help to balance the supply and demand?

 

[JanaDee]

Three things immediately come to mind.

1) There IS a difference between planning what park you are going to be in and what rides you want to do at what time and in what order up to 60 days in advance. Heck even the day before for us would be too much on many trips. Just not our style.

2) Complexity of planning, and the stress of planning does not increase linearly, especially when things are interdependent. Booking a, the, b where b depends on a, then c where c depends on b and a, then d where d depends on c b and a and so on, the difficulty/complexity/stress of the planning actually increases exponentially. So yes, for many people adding one more layer to an already fairly layered planning of a trip can be a large increase in the planning, or might just be the straw that breaks the back.

3) I know your big tag line is "you don't HAVE to use FP+" and this is superficially true, however, due to the increased wait times caused by FP+ people who opt out of it now pay a larger penalty. This itself is a pretty poor decision to make: Do I use FP+ which I do not like, and I find too confining, or do I wing it and know that I am going to face increased SB times due to FP+ and the fact that I am not using it ? Pretty easy to understand why some people wouldn't like this, and also why your assertion is literally true, but in practicality is not, it leaves out a considerable piece of the picture.
(Yes yes, usual caveat, on low crowd days its always possible there will be low SB times, this is and was always true, but in general and on average, wait times have increased for a significant number of rides.)

All great points and ones I completely agree with. I think 1 and 2 are my main arguments against FP+.

 

[nugov2]

We don't travel with extended family...and after reading your post Im really really really glad about that. (Kidding )

In all seriousness though great post which will, perhaps, allow those who believe planning with fp+ is a piece of cake understand that there is no "one size fits all" Disney guest.

I think that is why I get a headache over the new system. We always have extended family at WDW(maybe another reason Dh hates it) My parents love theme parks and always want to come with and honestly I feel like we win when this happens because dh and I can have a little us time

Last trip we had 13 people with 3 who were 2, thank goodness we had regular FP and we did do a VIP tour all making life easy. This time we are only 7 but with FP+ I feel like it will be more difficult. My 4 year old probably won't do anything crazy so most of his FP will be used along with mine and my mom's to give my older two bonus rides on things with long waits and to help with the tiering at the other parks. We also booked a throwaway to make booking more manageable. There are definitely ways to finesse the system, but I do question why it again is so many hoops to hope my ADR's will match up with my FP so we can get the experiences we would like.

 

[Luckybee]

I think that is why I get a headache over the new system. We always have extended family at WDW(maybe another reason Dh hates it) My parents love theme parks and always want to come with and honestly I feel like we win when this happens because dh and I can have a little us time

Last trip we had 13 people with 3 who were 2, thank goodness we had regular FP and we did do a VIP tour all making life easy. This time we are only 7 but with FP+ I feel like it will be more difficult. My 4 year old probably won't do anything crazy so most of his FP will be used along with mine and my mom's to give my older two bonus rides on things with long waits and to help with the tiering at the other parks. We also booked a throwaway to make booking more manageable. There are definitely ways to finesse the system, but I do question why it again is so many hoops to hope my ADR's will match up with my FP so we can get the experiences we would like.

Well for our first 2 nights in May we are travelling with Disney newbie friends (when we weren't planning to do Disney at all ) and now...drum roll...instead of booking a throwaway we actually booked the Beach club for the first 2 nights. Of course we also decided to go in 2 days earlier than we planned. I am however going in expecting a middle of the road hotel and not a true deluxe which should stave off the inevitable disappointment I know you'll understand....lol.

 

[Laketravis]

This is probably going a little off topic but it seems to be a case of not enough supply and too much demand. When that happens it means that pricing system is out of whack. Should WDW tickets be double the price they are now? Would that help to balance the supply and demand?

Of course it would. It's a basic concept of economics. Personally, I would pay more if that means demand is reduced sufficiently enough to improve my experience while still providing for the revenue goals of the company. And I would accept the risk that at some point I, too, could be priced out of participation either economically or philosophically.

Pretty much in the same manner I refuse to pay the ticket and parking prices for Cowboy games at Jerry's World.

 

[nugov2]

Well for our first 2 nights in May we are travelling with Disney newbie friends (when we weren't planning to do Disney at all ) and now...drum roll...instead of booking a throwaway we actually booked the Beach club for the first 2 nights. Of course we also decided to go in 2 days earlier than we planned. I am however going in expecting a middle of the road hotel and not a true deluxe which should stave off the inevitable disappointment I know you'll understand....lol.

Oh, I definitely do!!! Either way, I know we will have fun as you also know you will. I just wonder why certain things are the way they are at WDW.

 

[nugov2]

Of course it would. It's a basic concept of economics. Personally, I would pay more if that means demand is reduced sufficiently enough to improve my experience while still providing for the revenue goals of the company. And I would accept the risk that at some point I, too, could be priced out of participation either economically or philosophically.

Pretty much in the same manner I refuse to pay the ticket and parking prices for Cowboy games at Jerry's World.

DH and I always joke forget half price day, we'd take double price day. We hate crowds and will pay to avoid them whenever we can

 

[Laketravis]

DH and I always joke forget half price day, we'd take double price day. We hate crowds and will pay to avoid them whenever we can

You know, I've never been there but I always hear good things about Discovery Cove. People will tell me "It's great! Yes, it's expensive but it's never crowded because they limit the number of people they admit each day".

They aren't really complaining about the price because they've been able to rationalize the reason for it. And they were able to rationalize the reason for it because they realized tangible benefit.