The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't come-but I also wouldn't whine about why I wasn't here. It would be my choice and not the fault of anyone that posts here. I wouldn't expect anyone to change their behavior or the topics that they discuss to protect me from reading posts that I might find negative.
That works for you. Someone else might feel differently.

ETA... did anyone notice that I defended Obama in a prior post? Or is discussing the failings of fellow posters more interesting?
 
That comment about Obama being born in Selma and whether he was lying about that on the Conservative thread interests me. I don't read his comment as that he was literally born in Selma but that he was born of parents that were willing to cross that bridge. It all sounds very symbolic rather than literal to me.

Ahh, a bit of necessary humor and an April Fools joke. :lmao:

Did you really expect our friends on the other side of the aisle to tell the truth without embellishment or analysis gyrations worthy of an uber Twister game?
 
Sigh... I can't speak for everyone but I'm not willing to discuss these things primarily because I don't think it will do much if any good. I have my reasons for supporting who I do and this smacks a little too much of me having to defend my choice. Frankly, I'm in no mood to do that, period.

You never know, it might. As of right now, I refuse to vote for Hillary Clinton. If someone could find a way to justify her actions in this race, then I may reconsider that decision. I know I'm not alone in feeling that way, either...and I'm about as hard-core a Democrat as I think you'll find. :teeth:

As for defending your choice...yes, that is what I'm asking. This is a tough race, and Hillary is asking us to support having the SD's overturn the popular vote, delegate count, and number of states won and give her the nomination in spite of all those things. If nobody on her side has justification for that, then it seems to me that the only conclusion to be drawn is that she's doing it out of sheer ego...she "deserves" the nomination, by "right", so it doesn't matter that we peons didn't vote for her.

There are times when it's best to avoid a fight (debate, in this case), and times when it is best to stand up for yourself and your beliefs. IMHO, this is one of the times when people need to stand up for their candidates. The nomination (and the white house) aren't going to be given to anyone.
 
You know as a side note Bush is bypassing 30+ laws in order to build the fence along the Texas border....

Personally, I am uncomfortable with one fell swoop of a pen a President can bypass 30+ laws with absolutely no input or authorization from anywhere :sad2: But then again Bush is "The Decider"
 

You know as a side note Bush is bypassing 30+ laws in order to build the fence along the Texas border....

Personally, I am uncomfortable with one fell swoop of a pen a President can bypass 30+ laws with absolutely no input or authorization from anywhere :sad2: But then again Bush is "The Decider"

The good news is that the days of the president thinking he is above the law are numbered! :thumbsup2 Although...I have to admit to just enough spite to hope that the next Democratic president does just enough to stick it to the other side, just to watch them splutter about how unconstitutional and unAmerican it is. :lmao: Yeah...my chosen candidate is a bigger man than me, 'cause he won't do it...but wouldn't it be fun, for a while? :hippie:
 
Guys - lets play nice. We are all on the same side!



This primary fight can't be over quick enough for me. :rolleyes1


We should all be around the ring watching the Dem candidate pound on McCain. When it becomes a one on one fight, John Boy won't last two rounds.
 
In my opinion, this thread should be the place where we discuss these things. It's the perfect venue, open to both sides of the dispute, and won't intrude on either "supporters" thread's stated goal to focus on the positives of the respective campaigns.

Does that mean you'll stop coming to the Hillary thread?


Oh wait....you' ve been there since posting this, nevermind.
 
Does that mean you'll stop coming to the Hillary thread?


Oh wait....you' ve been there since posting this, nevermind.

Did I post anything negative about her there? Did I ask if she encountered any sniper fire since entering the Pennsylvania hot zone? :rotfl:

Good grief.

Did I post this on the Hillary Supporters Thread?

Top 10 Myths About the Clinton Campaign said:
I have noted a number of myths suggesting Hillary should stay in the race. Here are ten enduring, kudzu-like myths, with the debunking they sorely need.

Myth: This race is tied.

No, actually, it's not. Obama has the lead in number of states won, in pledged delegates and in overall delegates. Nothing will happen in the remaining primaries to substantially change that. As to the one thing Hillary does lead in, superdelegates, her quickly shrinking margin is among DNC personnel only. When you look at the elected superdelegates, Congressman, Senators and Governors (i.e. people who actually work with both Obama and Clinton) Obama leads there, too.

Myth: Okay, the popular vote is tied.


There are people who claim that because of the 3% separation, that Obama's lead in the popular vote is a "statistical tie." This is a myth because, when you can actually count things, there's no need of statistics and no such thing as a margin of error. The popular vote is not an estimate based on a sampling, like a poll. Like the general election, there are winners and losers and, so far, Obama is the winner.

Myth: Fine, but what if we count electoral votes? Now Hillary is ahead!

Not so much. The proportions of electoral votes to population versus delegates to population are pretty comparable. So if you allocated electors proportionally in the same manner that you allocate delegates, Obama is still ahead. If you allocate them on a winner-take-all basis, then that would be the same as allocating the delegates on a winner-take-all basis, so why bring electors into it?

Myth: But if we did do it like the Electoral College, that proves Hillary is more electable than Obama, because of states like California.

This is perhaps the saddest little myth of all. It's ridiculous to suggest that Obama will lose New York and California to McCain because Clinton won them in the primaries. No, come November, those states will join with Obama's Illinois to provide 40% of the electors necessary for him to win.

Myth: Very well, then, Mr. Smarty-Math. But if we counted Michigan and Florida, then Hillary would be winning!

Nooo, she wouldn't. The margin would depend on how you allocate the delegates, but Obama would still be ahead. And he'd still be about 100,000 ahead in the popular vote, too, despite not even being on the ballot in Michigan. However, it would enhance Hillary's chances of catching up in the remaining races.

Myth: Ah HA! So Dean is keeping them out just to help Obama! And Obama is keeping them out.

That's two myths, but I'll treat it like one. The only people who can come up with a solution to this problem are the states themselves, to be presented to the Rules and Regulations Committee of the DNC for ratification. It was Rules and Regs, not Howard Dean, who ruled that Florida and Michigan were breaking the rules when they presented their original primary plans. If the two states cannot come up with a plan to reselect delegates, they can try to seat whatever delegates were chosen in the discounted primaries by appealing to the Democratic Convention's Credentialing Committee, which includes many members from Rules and Bylaws.

Myth: If they don't get seated until the convention but a nominee is selected before these poor people get counted then these states are disenfranchised.

There are two ways to debunk this myth: semantically and practically. The first is based on the word "disenfranchised:" these people have not been deprived of their right to vote. Through the actions of their states, their votes don't impact the outcome. Now, you may say that that is specious semantics (Myth: I do say that!) but practically speaking, this is the usual effect of the nominating process, anyway. All of the Republican primaries since McCain clinched the nomination have been meaningless, but those voters are not disenfranchised.

Florida and Michigan tried to become more relevant in the process by breaking the rules. They risked becoming irrelevant instead.

Myth: Well, I say they are disenfranchised, and Hillary Clinton is their champion.

Only when it suits her. Last fall, when the decision was first made to flush 100% of Michigan and Florida delegates, Clinton firmly ratified it. That was because the typical punishment of only 50% representation also kept the candidates from raising money in those states. Figuring that she would wrap up the nomination handily anyway, the clear front-runner agreed with all the other candidates - including Obama - to completely "disenfranchise" those two states.

Myth: Well, never mind 2007. She's doing more now to bring them in.

Not really. Recent stories in the St. Petersburg Times political blog said that 1) the Obama camp has reached out to the Florida Democratic party about a compromise and that 2) the Clinton camp will discuss nothing else but re-votes, which are legally, practically and politically dead.

Myth: Whatever! Hillary can still win! I know she can! She and her 37% positive rating will sweep through the remaining primaries and Michigan and Florida, winning 70% of everything and superdelegates will flock to her banner and Barack Obama will personally nominate her at the Convention and John McCain will give up and George Bush will even quit early so she can take over and... and... and... can I have a glass of water?

Yes, and you should lie down, too.
 
You really think it's the same? I don't, sorry. But then I try not to bash anyone so I might be looking at things differently. YMMV.
I don't think it's the same either and I also support both candidates. Especially when it comes to "drive by" shots and snarky name calling.
 
You can't deny the facts: Obama has publicly said, on 3 separate occasions since Saturday, that Clinton has every right to stay in the race. Still the Clinton campaign says otherwise to whoever will listen.

That isn't bashing. Those are the facts. That isn't an opinion as it is backed up by videotape.

So how is pointing that out "bashing Hillary". Either someone is lying or they aren't? To continue to claim Obama is trying to get her out of the race is lying. :confused3


From an article today - bolding my emphasis. Obama's supporters - surrogates if you will - are calling for her to drop out. One can infer that his campaign, therefore, he supports their calls. It seems like good cop\bad cop to me....... my viewpoint ........

April 01, 2008
Trying to Shove Hillary Aside
By Marie Cocco

WASHINGTON -- Have you noticed something similar about those Barack Obama campaign surrogates and the media soothsayers who have started a drum-beat to force Hillary Clinton out of the Democratic presidential contest? Hint: They tend to share a certain anatomical attribute.

I guess the boys are just being boys again. They've failed to dispatch Clinton in the race thus far -- remember, they were predicting the fall of the "house of Clinton" in New Hampshire. Then Kennedy magic was supposed to transform Obama into the anointed nominee on Super Tuesday, but star-power appearances in California by the women of Camelot failed to help Obama there, and not even Ted Kennedy could deliver his home state of Massachusetts. Clinton won decisively in the Bay State and took all the big states on Super Tuesday, except Obama's home state of Illinois and in Missouri, where he edged her by a single percentage point.

Clinton then was supposed to bow out after March 4 if she did not win the crucial states of Texas and Ohio. But darn! She messed up their game plan again by winning both of those states -- and Rhode Island, too.

Those looking ahead now see no way, based on current polling and the way the demographics of Pennsylvania break down, that Obama will win that next mega-state on April 22. Those looking even further ahead see only more uncertainty -- a series of contests lasting until June in which some states seem to naturally favor Clinton (Kentucky, West Virginia) while others seem to favor Obama (North Carolina, Oregon).

Since we're talking boy-talk here, we might as well get right into their rhetorical comfort zone: Obama now is ahead by a field goal in the third quarter. But the fourth quarter has yet to be played and who knows what the score will be at the end of regulation? So here's their plan, hatched in the locker room: Push Clinton off the field now so that Obama can take his early victory lap.

Obama denies that he is personally behind this strategy. But let's face it. The pronouncements by Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Chris Dodd, D-Conn., both big-name Obama supporters and superdelegates, that Clinton needs to limp away with her head held low looked terribly orchestrated.

Leahy was particularly odious when, after declaring Clinton had "no way" to win the nomination, he offered her a very warm seat. It happens to be one she already holds and it is, of course, comfortably below the glass ceiling. "Frankly, I feel that she would have a tremendous career in the Senate," Leahy declared.

If it weren't so galling, it would be amusing to watch the Democratic men shuffling nervously in their television studio chairs, trying to conceal the audacity of their arrogance. For they have something in common besides their anatomy: It's Hillary Clinton. For nearly two decades, she's raised more money for more Democrats than anyone except, perhaps, Bill Clinton. She's certainly done more obligatory "Women-for-(Your Candidate's Name Here)" events than, say, the Obama girl on YouTube.

Now Clinton's methodical, dogged history of work for the Democratic Party is treated just like the methodical, dogged histories of so many women in the workplace: Having come this far she must not go too far. She must step aside to take the smaller office, with the lesser title and the lower pay to make room for the younger guy with the thinner resume. And please, would she just go quietly like a good girl?

Maybe it is true that Clinton has no realistic way to win the nomination. But Obama hasn't won it either -- and contrary to the myth his campaign has spun, Obama can't win without superdelegates to put him over the top.

Somehow the Obama campaign has come to believe that insulting Clinton is the same as beating her. It isn't. And insulting her supporters -- especially women and, in particular, working-class women, who have clung to her candidacy all these months -- isn't much of a general-election victory strategy. Women were 54 percent of the electorate in the presidential election of 2004. Without their support, Al Gore would not have won the popular vote in 2000 and John Kerry wouldn't have come so close in 2004. Women voters put Democrats in control of Congress in 2006.

So, the Obama campaign can continue trying to get its allies in the media and various party pooh-bahs to push Clinton aside early. Or Obama can welcome the fight -- and win it like a man.
 
From an article today - bolding my emphasis. Obama's supporters - surrogates if you will - are calling for her to drop out. One can infer that his campaign, therefore, he supports their calls. It seems like good cop\bad cop to me....... my viewpoint ........

I'd buy that-if every clip I've seen of him in the last few days doesn't start with: "Senator Clinton can and should stay in the race for as long as she wants".

If he were not repeatedly stating on every network that she should stay in, if he were hedging or silent regarding the issue, then I'd agree with you.

I don't blame Hillary for the Judas comment about Bill Richardson, or for anything that Mark Penn has been saying-whether she outright denounces it or not.

I don't blame either of them for the dopey things that their supporters have been saying.
 
I'd buy that-if every clip I've seen of him in the last few days doesn't start with: "Senator Clinton can and should stay in the race for as long as she wants".

If he were not repeatedly stating on every network that she should stay in, if he were hedging or silent regarding the issue, then I'd agree with you.

I don't blame Hillary for the Judas comment about Bill Richardson, or for anything that Mark Penn has been saying-whether she outright denounces it or not.

I don't blame either of them for the dopey things that their supporters have been saying.


That does it! I am sick to DEATH of all the Dopey bashing going on around here. Why is it that just because he doesn't say much and he's the only one of the seven drawfs that doesn't have a beard, that his name is now synonomus with "stupid"? Huh? I had really hoped this kind of stereotyping wouldn't occur in a race for President in this day and age, but I guess I was just expecting too much from my fellow Americans!

;) Sorry, I'm having a very weird day today...
 
I'd buy that-if every clip I've seen of him in the last few days doesn't start with: "Senator Clinton can and should stay in the race for as long as she wants".

If he were not repeatedly stating on every network that she should stay in, if he were hedging or silent regarding the issue, then I'd agree with you.

I don't blame Hillary for the Judas comment about Bill Richardson, or for anything that Mark Penn has been saying-whether she outright denounces it or not.

I don't blame either of them for the dopey things that their supporters have been saying.

Why not? :confused3 By Jarn's standard, you should blame her for those, as well as Ferraro's comments, idiotic Ed Rendell's praising of Faux News, and everything else any supporter of hers has said publicly...particularly since she can't be bothered to comment on most of those things (though she sure doesn't mind commenting on anything his supporters say. :rolleyes: )

On another note...did anyone else notice that Pelosi caved to Clinton's financier's bullying tactics? Yep...she now says "Super Delegates should vote however they please" instead of "Super Delegates should support the person that is winning". :sad2: More strong "leadership" from the Democratic party.
 
Well, Amanda. :confused3 They didn't listen to you and they didn't listen to me. But what were expecting ~ these are Democrats we're talking about. :lmao:

This thread was intended for ALL liberals to have a safe place to post and vent about those evil guys on the other side of the aisle. Personally, I'd like to keep this a safe zone.

Hey rev, luvduke, jarnj and anyone else who wants to DEBATE on this thread please take it elsewhere. Why now start a 'My candidate (fill in the blank) is better than your candidate (fill in the blank) and have a nice debate. Huh? Please! I'm begging you...


Guys - lets play nice. We are all on the same side!


And over on the 'connie' thread they're giggling about how women ought not have the right to vote, announcing their scores on polls and laughing at us. Come on people, cut out the yelling at one another. :confused3

Could we please keep the comments about the 'other' Democratic candidate on the 'pro' threads? We're supposed to be working TOGETHER to elect a Democrat. SERIOUSLY!! This thread is proving the old 'saw' about Democrats forming a circle and firing inward. QUIT IT!! PLEASE.

How about some info on the goof ups McCain is making on the campaign trail? :goodvibes
 
This thread was intended for ALL liberals to have a safe place to post and vent about those evil guys on the other side of the aisle. Personally, I'd like to keep this a safe zone.
But .. but ... but ... THEY STARTED IT!

Just kidding :laughing:. Sorry, mom.
 
This thread was intended for ALL liberals to have a safe place to post and vent about those evil guys on the other side of the aisle. Personally, I'd like to keep this a safe zone.



ITA. I don't necessarily mind the debate per se, but considering there are two threads already devoted to the two of them, I don't see why every post here has to turn into a Hillary/Obama fight. It's kinda hard to get a word in edgewise.
 
Well, Amanda. :confused3 They didn't listen to you and they didn't listen to me. But what were expecting ~ these are Democrats we're talking about. :lmao:

This thread was intended for ALL liberals to have a safe place to post and vent about those evil guys on the other side of the aisle. Personally, I'd like to keep this a safe zone.

Hey rev, luvduke, jarnj and anyone else who wants to DEBATE on this thread please take it elsewhere. Why now start a 'My candidate (fill in the blank) is better than your candidate (fill in the blank) and have a nice debate. Huh? Please! I'm begging you...

Sorry!! I didn't mean to debate - I've long since realized no one is changing any one's minds around these parts - sometimes - statements just "get to me" and I feel compelled to point out the other side........

I tried to steer the conversation a couple of days ago to McCain and how Lieberman thinks he's the next JFK - but only a few responded. I really don't come here too often - as my candidate choice is usually being ridiculed and raked over the coals........

I will definitely refrain from debating in the future - as you are correct - it gets us no where.
 
So, we're going to have a liberal thread where we can't talk about the liberal candidates for president? :confused3

Fine by me, I guess...but I'll start looking for this thread on page 6 or 7 instead of 1 or 2. :teeth:

This is the most hotly contested nomination process, with the most passion for the candidates, in my lifetime. I can't understand the urge to not want to talk about it, but if that's the way everyone wants it, then I'll abide by that, as much as I can. :rolleyes1
 
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