The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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That's what they signed up to do.

Yeah, except it...well...isn't. They signed up to defend this country, if need be. They didn't sign up to be used in a war of choice against a nation that was no threat to us or our allies.

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23247495]Wonder if we will see more of this on the Texas debate:confused3 [/QUOTE]

I imagine we will. Hillary is getting desperate after losing for week after week after week. Judging by the tone she is trying to set in Wisconsin, I fully expect her to be at her worst for this debate.

As for the polls...I tend to look at them pretty much the same way Keith Olbermann does. Any time he shows a poll, he includes a "Keith Number", which is undecides plus the poll's margin of error. The theory being that as long as the margin of the poll is lower than the Keith number, there is still plenty of room for either side to win.

Hillary has an advantage in Ohio and Texas right now. But Obama has the fundraising and organizational advantage in both places, and a couple weeks left to close the gap. After he wins Wisconsin, I fully expect that polling gap to narrow, at least in Ohio if not in both places. Hillary's on the ropes, and she must win both if she's to stand a chance of winning the nomination.
 
Obama addresses the "Solutions not speeches" nonsense:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/u...rss&adxnnlx=1203261773-zjJ6CIfAI7eeHL9TKEyqVQ

The New York Times said:
EAU CLAIRE, Wis. — If he does say so himself, Senator Barack Obama delivers a fine political speech.

“Don’t be fooled by this talk about speeches versus solutions,” Mr. Obama told a crowd of Wisconsin voters. “It’s true, I give a good speech. What do I do? Nothing wrong with that.”

To that confident strain of self-assessment, the audience roared with approval.

A shrug of the shoulders and a few deadpanned retorts, some of which stop just shy of mocking his rival, is the latest approach Mr. Obama has taken to respond to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s criticism that his words offer more poetry than substance.

Yet as he traveled across Wisconsin last week, Mr. Obama seemed to have let loose a little more of his inner-wonk, which his strategists had once urged him to keep on the shelf.

Even as he was dismissing Mrs. Clinton’s criticism, he appeared to be taking it at least mildly to heart — a suggestion that as a line of attack, she might be on to something.

Suddenly, he was injecting a few more specifics into his campaign speeches. Giant rallies that had sustained his candidacy through a coast-to-coast series of contests on Feb. 5, notable for their rhetorical flourishes and big applause lines, were supplemented with policy speeches and town-hall-style meetings, complete with the question-and-answer sessions he abandoned as he roared out of Iowa and into New Hampshire. (In hindsight, he conceded as he reviewed a defeat to Mrs. Clinton, that was a mistake.)

By every indication, this was not a random change in the Obama style. The senator decided to clue in his audience to the shift on a recent morning in Janesville, Wis., where he presented an economic proposal to create seven million jobs over the next decade.

“Today, I want to take it down a notch,” said Mr. Obama, of Illinois, standing on the floor of a General Motors plant. “This is going to be a speech that is a little more detailed. It’s going to be a little bit longer, with not too many applause lines.”

After raising more money, winning more states and garnering more votes than Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Obama has demonstrated a new air of certainty. But advisers said despite his questionable flares of confidence — acknowledging to audiences, for example, that he believed he did in fact give a good speech — he was mindful of being too sure of himself at this unfinished moment in the Democratic nomination fight. And clearly the criticisms by Mrs. Clinton — and, not incidentally, by Senator John McCain of Arizona, the presumptive Republican nominee — that Mr. Obama is a candidate with more flash than substance are being taken as something of a warning shot.

Before Mrs. Clinton arrived Saturday evening in Wisconsin, appearing at the same state Democratic Party dinner in Milwaukee as Mr. Obama, she spent days criticizing her rival while campaigning in Ohio, where the primary is March 4. In city after city, she warned voters about politicians who offered oratory steeped with big promises but ultimately did not deliver.

“Speeches don’t put food on the table,” said Mrs. Clinton, of New York. “Speeches don’t fill up your tank, or fill your prescription, or do anything about that stack of bills that keeps you up at night.”

The long-distance message — “My opponent gives speeches; I offer solutions” — clearly was heard here in Wisconsin. Barely hours after Mrs. Clinton introduced the line in Ohio, Mr. Obama had woven the words into his speech as a new punch line. (By contrast, he did not acknowledge the criticism from Mr. McCain, who said Mr. Obama’s speeches had been “singularly lacking in specifics.”)

Here in Eau Claire on Saturday, as Mr. Obama spoke to more than 3,000 people, he devoted several minutes to addressing Mrs. Clinton’s criticism. The response, advisers said, was designed to crystallize support among those who had already made up their minds in the race and were choosing Mr. Obama.

Why else would a candidate repeat the attack lines used against him? Except, of course, it allowed him to address the criticism at campaign stops in Oshkosh, Green Bay and Eau Claire.

“Part of what I think Senator Clinton doesn’t seem to understand,” Mr. Obama said, “is that the way you get things done is not just having a bunch of bullet points and position papers. Every candidate has them.”

Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin, is chairman of the House Appropriations Committee and respected on Capitol Hill as being among the small share of lawmakers intricately familiar with the federal budget. Mr. Obey said he was more than comfortable with Mr. Obama’s grasp of substance.

“If I weren’t, I wouldn’t have endorsed him,” Mr. Obey said Saturday. “You can’t make much headway on substance until you have somebody who can break through the rancorous atmosphere, build new alliances and cut through old barriers.”

Still, even as Mr. Obama dismissed the criticism, there were adjustments under way in his strategy to maintain his advantages in Wisconsin.

After taking Valentine’s Day off the campaign trail, Mr. Obama also had intended to stay at home in Chicago on Sunday. With the prospect of the race tightening here, he suddenly added a campaign stop to his itinerary. He was heading to a town-hall-style meeting in Kaukauna, located in the Fox River Valley, a politically crucial area rich with Democratic and independent voters.

He was scheduled to deliver a speech. And take questions from voters.
 

I was originally going to make a snappy one-liner about, but this calls attention to a much bigger problem.

We have to restore the trust of the people that their vote will be counted fairly and not tampered with in any way.

Until we do that, everything is suspect.
 

Interesting - yet probably innocent:

City election officials said they were convinced that there was nothing sinister to account for the inaccurate initial counts, and The Times’s review found a handful of election districts in the city where Mrs. Clinton received zero votes in the initial results.

“It looked like a lot of the numbers were wrong, probably the result of human error,” said Marcus Cederqvist, who was named executive director of the Board of Elections last month. He said such discrepancies between the unofficial and final count rarely affected the raw vote outcome because “they’re not usually that big.”
 
I imagine we will. Hillary is getting desperate after losing for week after week after week. Judging by the tone she is trying to set in Wisconsin, I fully expect her to be at her worst for this debate.

As for the polls...I tend to look at them pretty much the same way Keith Olbermann does. Any time he shows a poll, he includes a "Keith Number", which is undecides plus the poll's margin of error. The theory being that as long as the margin of the poll is lower than the Keith number, there is still plenty of room for either side to win.

Hillary has an advantage in Ohio and Texas right now. But Obama has the fundraising and organizational advantage in both places, and a couple weeks left to close the gap. After he wins Wisconsin, I fully expect that polling gap to narrow, at least in Ohio if not in both places. Hillary's on the ropes, and she must win both if she's to stand a chance of winning the nomination.

Just curious - if it were Obama perceived to be behind - would you label him "desperate" as well?

I am proud that Senator Clinton is doing all she can to win the nomination. I look forward to the next debate, because I believe that's where she does her best.
 
Originally Posted by shkeogh View Post
That's what they signed up to do.


I am offended. Those people are someone's sons and daughters. Do you have no compassion at all?

Isn't it true that most of our National Guardsmen and women signed up to be protectors here at home? Never dreaming they'd be in the federal army, marines, etc?

If I had a son or daughter - I'd move heaven and earth to change their minds about serving this country while this current commander in chief is in charge!
 
Just curious - if it were Obama perceived to be behind - would you label him "desperate" as well?

I am proud that Senator Clinton is doing all she can to win the nomination. I look forward to the next debate, because I believe that's where she does her best.

If he were lying in ads and trying to smear Hillary as a coward for not doing something she's already done 18 times and is currently scheduled to do twice more? ABSOLUTELY I would. He hasn't done that, though, has he? (And make no mistake...it's no "perception" that she is behind. She is, no matter how you look at it.)

Nor has his campaign manager called all of Hillary's wins "insignificant" because they didn't happen in New York or California...two states about as likely to vote Republican in November as I am. Although, to his credit, he did give Barack credit for Illinois. :rolleyes: Hillary should have fun campaigning in all of those "insignificant" states - more than half the nation, by the time it's over...22 and counting right now - come November, don't you think?

Yes, I think she's getting desperate. She's down by at least 169 delegates right now, and is hemorrhaging "super" delegates at the rate of about 1 per day (actually more, since she's lost 3 while Obama picked up about 13 in the last week). She's basically put all of her eggs in the Ohio/Texas/Pennsylvania basket, and the last candidate to try that - some former Mayor of New york - didn't like the result too well.

I just hope that by "doing everything she can" she doesn't rip the party apart with lawsuits and problems over the Michigan and Florida delegates. If she would simply agree to either a re-vote in both places or not seating their delegates, instead of counting them as "wins" when they weren't, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about that.
 
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I just hope that by "doing everything she can" she doesn't rip the party apart with lawsuits and problems over the Michigan and Florida delegates. If she would simply agree to either a re-vote in both places or not seating their delegates, instead of counting them as "wins" when they weren't, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about that.


Amen to this part for sure. Well, actually amen to your entire post. I may not be crazy about how you say things but I agree with what you say. :hippie:
 
I just hope that by "doing everything she can" she doesn't rip the party apart with lawsuits and problems over the Michigan and Florida delegates. If she would simply agree to either a re-vote in both places or not seating their delegates, instead of counting them as "wins" when they weren't, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about that.

What exactly do you want her to do? Roll over and play dead just because she is slightly behind? I do not think she will do anything to rip the party apart but do you really expect her to agree to something that damages ger chances of winning? She did not orchestrate the mess in Fla. and Mich. so why should she be the one hurt by the resolution? I usually takes two to pull something apart you know-pulling in opposite directions.
 
What exactly do you want her to do? Roll over and play dead just because she is slightly behind? I do not think she will do anything to rip the party apart but do you really expect her to agree to something that damages ger chances of winning? She did not orchestrate the mess in Fla. and Mich. so why should she be the one hurt by the resolution? I usually takes two to pull something apart you know-pulling in opposite directions.

It is simply ridiculous for her to be trying to include those delegates. Everyone knew the rules before those states voted - including one of her top advisors, who was on the feesking committee that set those rules! - and she only wants to break them now because she's losing.

Do I expect her to "roll over"? No. I expect her to show a little integrity and dignity about the process. So far - again looking at the negative tone she is taking - it's looking like I'm going to be disappointed in that expectation.
 
What exactly do you want her to do? Roll over and play dead just because she is slightly behind? I do not think she will do anything to rip the party apart but do you really expect her to agree to something that damages ger chances of winning? She did not orchestrate the mess in Fla. and Mich. so why should she be the one hurt by the resolution? I usually takes two to pull something apart you know-pulling in opposite directions.

Exactly - I didn't know what to respond to wvrevy's reply to me - but this represents my thoughts as well.

wvrevy - no offense - I just don't think we're likely to change each other's minds - I think we're also coming from different places.

I happen to like Senator Clinton a lot. She is my choice for president. There really isn't anything anyone can say to make me change my mind. So I probably should refrain from trying to change yours or anyone elses!

Should Obama win the nom - its going to take me some time to come to terms with that. I just don't "like" him. I think he's all words and no action (in his Federal career). Others, including yourself - say I'm wrong. I just don't see it.

That being said - I probably will hold my nose and vote for him and hope he wins (if only to save the Supreme Court). I still fear what the Republicans will do to him in the general election. The Clintons have gone easy on him - in my opinion.
 
I wouldn't use the word proud - but they don't bother me - if they are true. :confused3

So you're ok with her essentially calling Obama chicken for not debating for the 19th time?
 
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