The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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Frankly, I doubt it. I mean...we all said the same thing when we ended up with a candidate we weren't truly happy with the last time. "Oh, people will come out to support Kerry. After all...they know that if they don't, they'll just get four more years of George Bush."

How'd that turn out for us again?

The extreme right wing will not come out to support John McCain. They may come out to oppose our candidate, if we don't choose wisely.

And while I'm posting videos, could we maybe find a way to have a spouses debate? I was a big fan of Bill Clinton, but I think Michelle Obama might have a little somethin' for him. :teeth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jscnylbyE9c

The difference between Kerry and McCain is that Kerry didn't have a non-stop media drum beating for him no matter where one turned on the airwaves. By the time Rush, Drudge, Fox, Coulter et. al. stop their crying and contradict themselves for the umpteenth time in inventing reasons to suddenly support McCain, their specific target audiences will lap it up and unquestionably follow. Just like they've done all along, no matter what reality is.

Why would things be different now?
 
The difference between Kerry and McCain is that Kerry didn't have a non-stop media drum beating for him no matter where one turned on the airwaves. By the time Rush, Drudge, Fox, Coulter et. al. stop their crying and contradict themselves for the umpteenth time in inventing reasons to suddenly support McCain, their specific target audiences will lap it up and unquestionably follow. Just like they've done all along, no matter what reality is.

Why would things be different now?



But will the base be passionate about it? Passionate enough to volunteer, which is what McCain's campaign is going to sorely need. They talk a good game but when it comes time to open their wallets or give some time, will they decide McCain is worth it? That's the question. We'll have to see how enthusiastically the right wing talking heads decide they want to sell him.
 
But will the base be passionate about it? Passionate enough to volunteer, which is what McCain's campaign is going to sorely need. They talk a good game but when it comes time to open their wallets or give some time, will they decide McCain is worth it? That's the question. We'll have to see how enthusiastically the right wing talking heads decide they want to sell him.

We're talking about people who have sold nothing but fear for the last decade. (And for the record, are pretty good salespeople when doing it.) Look at the demonification of both Hillary and Obama already going on. Even if they can't manufacturer reasons to support McCain, the close will be stopping either one of those two at all costs.

Take a good look around, my friend. You don't think that's already going on?
 
We're talking about people who have sold nothing but fear for the last decade. (And for the record, are pretty good salespeople when doing it.) Look at the demonification of both Hillary and Obama already going on. Even if they can't manufacturer reasons to support McCain, the close will be stopping either one of those two at all costs.

Take a good look around, my friend. You don't think that's already going on?


Oh, I see it. One need look no further than a couple of threads away, doctored photo and all. Lets hope McCain really is above that childish nonsense.
 

Oh, I see it. One need look no further than a couple of threads away, doctored photo and all. Lets hope McCain really is above that childish nonsense.

It's irrelevant whether McCain is or isn't.

It's everyone around him who will be doing the dirty work.
 
It's irrelevant whether McCain is or isn't.

It's everyone around him who will be doing the dirty work.


But the head honcho sets the tone.

I have no doubt that Bush/Cheney themselves ok'd the Swiftboaters and gave Rove carte blanche to do whatever he had to do to get them elected.
 
I keep seeing what I would call main stream polls showing Hillary leading Obama in Texas by substantial margins. Then I found this poll where Obama is ahead. Anybody familiar with
American Research group? As of Feb. 15, they have Obama ahead:

February 15, 2008 - Texas Primary Preferences Democrats TX
Clinton 42%
Obama 48%
Someone else 3%
Undecided 7%

"Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama among self-described Democrats 47% to 42%. Obama leads Clinton among self-described independents and Republicans 24% to 71%. Obama leads among men 55% to 29% (47% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Clinton leads among women 54% to 42%. Clinton leads Obama among white voters 51% to 40% (53% of likely Democratic primary voters), Obama leads Clinton among African American voters 76% to 17% (22% of likely Democratic primary voters), and Clinton leads Obama among Latino voters 44% to 42%."

http://americanresearchgroup.com/
 
I wouldn't put any credence in any polls right now, but that is just me... there's a long time between now and March 4th, and I guarantee the polls on March 3rd will be wrong...
 
If you haven't seen this, you need to. It's from the SC debate, and I think it goes a long way towards showing politics versus ideas. I'll let you figure out which is which. :teeth: Obviously a few good shots from both sides, but the "...while you were a corporate lawyer with Wal-Mart" is a personal favorite. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD9F1t9GQzA

Wonder if we will see more of this on the Texas debate:confused3

I keep seeing what I would call main stream polls showing Hillary leading Obama in Texas by substantial margins. Then I found this poll where Obama is ahead. Anybody familiar with
American Research group? As of Feb. 15, they have Obama ahead:

February 15, 2008 - Texas Primary Preferences Democrats TX
Clinton 42%
Obama 48%
Someone else 3%
Undecided 7%

"Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama among self-described Democrats 47% to 42%. Obama leads Clinton among self-described independents and Republicans 24% to 71%. Obama leads among men 55% to 29% (47% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Clinton leads among women 54% to 42%. Clinton leads Obama among white voters 51% to 40% (53% of likely Democratic primary voters), Obama leads Clinton among African American voters 76% to 17% (22% of likely Democratic primary voters), and Clinton leads Obama among Latino voters 44% to 42%."

http://americanresearchgroup.com/

Heres the Rassmussin report.....from today
Texas: Clinton 54% Obama 38%

Wisconsin: Obama 47% Clinton 43%

Ohio: Clinton 51% Obama 37%

This was on htere also......

Seventy-eight percent (78%) of Likely Democratic Primary Voters say that Clinton would be at least somewhat likely to win the White House if nominated. Seventy-six percent (76%) say the same about Obama.
 
Got Disney";23247495]Wonder if we will see more of this on the Texas debate:confused3 Heres the Rassmussin report.....from today [URL="http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/texas/texas_democratic_presidential_primary said:
Texas: Clinton 54% Obama 38%[/URL]

Wisconsin: Obama 47% Clinton 43%

Ohio: Clinton 51% Obama 37%

This was on htere also......

Seventy-eight percent (78%) of Likely Democratic Primary Voters say that Clinton would be at least somewhat likely to win the White House if nominated. Seventy-six percent (76%) say the same about Obama.

Rasmussen uses a 3-day average which is why they're sometimes out of sync with everyone else.
 
This article says what I have been thinking and feeling better than I could - so I am posting it here for discussion:

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opklu155577880feb15,0,102266.column

Obama sounds good, but words aren't enough

James Klurfeld
February 15, 2008

Watch out, Barack Obama. You've hit the magic tipping point. After winning the Virginia, Maryland and District of Columbia primaries, you are now the front-runner. It doesn't mean that the nomination is yours, not by a long shot in this kind of competitive race. But you've got more delegates than Hillary Rodham Clinton.

And now the press is going to come after you.

I admire much of what Sen. Obama has to say. And he says it so well. But the journalist in me still feels there are questions that have not been asked, let alone answered.

First and foremost, just how is Obama going to bring the country together and find common ground on the substantive issues that have so divided it for almost three decades? Just saying you want to bring people together isn't sufficient. Where is the common ground on giving women the right to choose versus embracing the right-to-life argument? How do you pull troops out of Iraq without re-energizing al-Qaida or compromising the gains from the surge? How will you reduce the cost of health care to make it more affordable, when the medical inflation rate has been at least twice that of the general inflation rate? And how do you convince Americans that some taxes might have to be raised to pay for universal access to health care or to make Social Security and Medicare solvent for the next generation?

We here in New York have been scarred by the experience of Gov. Eliot Spitzer. He came into office as the great, new hope, vowing to change the way things were done in Albany, and he's run into a stone wall. His surprising lack of political finesse has been a huge disappointment. Remember the crushed promise of Jimmy Carter? Good intentions aren't enough. And, by the way, the comparison of Obama to John F. Kennedy makes me uncomfortable. JFK's record was poor in his approximately 1,000 days.

I understand that the Spitzer analogy might not be valid. He took the steamroller approach, and Obama says he'll be a conciliator. But you know what? Sen. Clinton has been a very effective cloakroom player in the Senate. She's demonstrated her political touch in surprising ways, working with former political enemies to craft legislative compromises. Her reputation as a polarizing figure isn't fair.

There's one school of political thought that believes that if you're really going to be a change agent, you have to be ready to go to political war, not be a compromiser. In fact, the question is whether there really is common ground on some of these big issues. According to this view, compromisers don't get that much accomplished.

Bill Clinton pursued a triangulation strategy in the last half of his presidency: small gains, trying to work with the other side of the aisle. But that's not the type of change Obama is talking about. He's promising fundamental change, generational change.

I also want to know how Obama is going to react when things aren't going well. He's gotten some unfair comments about his religious background (he's a Christian) and the association of his church's leader with Louis Farrakhan, but, as the saying goes, he "ain't seen nothing yet." It's obvious that he can be charming and inspirational, but reporters have also found him to be aloof, even arrogant.

How will a person with so little national political experience react to the cocoon of the White House, surrounded by sycophantic aides (regardless of what he may say now about wanting a staff that will tell him, "no") and a cacophony of criticism from the fourth estate, which inevitably happens to every president? If he wants to get anything done, he's going to make enemies, no matter how much he tries to rebuild the center of American politics. How will he react?

Don't get me wrong. Obama has my attention. He might actually have momentum - whatever that is and if it even exists. But it's been only six weeks since the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primaries. So far, I like what I see. But I'm still not sure what I'm getting.
 
Rasmussen uses a 3-day average which is why they're sometimes out of sync with everyone else.

Its so hard to go by these polls since they change soooo much. I think that makes me because it is a mystery until the actual polling day. I think this is all giving me a headache :)
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_el_pr/obama_bracelet

"Tracy Jopek of Merrill, Wis., gave Obama the bracelet at a rally Friday night in Green Bay, and Obama was still wearing it Saturday as he campaigned across the state before Tuesday's primary.

The bracelet has her son's name, Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, and the date the 20-year-old was killed in Iraq by a roadside bomb, Aug. 2, 2006. "All gave some — He gave all," it says.

"She gave me this wristband, which I'm very grateful for," Obama told the Green Bay audience, halting and lowering his voice from his normally upbeat presentation. "I meet mothers and family members all over the country who are still mourning their children but are also thinking about the young men and women who are still over there and wondering when it will end."

Mrs. Jopek said she and her daughter briefly met the Illinois senator at the rally and showed him a picture of a smiling Ryan dressed for battle. She said the senator hugged her and her daughter, asked a couple questions about Ryan and told her how much he appreciated the bracelet.

"I wanted him to know my son's name for one thing, for when he's commander in chief," Mrs. Jopek said during a telephone interview in which she frequently grew emotional. She said she was somewhat uncomfortable getting so publicly involved in the war debate, but felt the issue was too important for her to remain silent during this campaign.

She said she's a Democrat who will vote for Obama in Wisconsin's primary Tuesday. Like Obama, she said she was against the war from the start and had a hard time watching her son go to war."
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_el_pr/obama_bracelet

"Tracy Jopek of Merrill, Wis., gave Obama the bracelet at a rally Friday night in Green Bay, and Obama was still wearing it Saturday as he campaigned across the state before Tuesday's primary.

The bracelet has her son's name, Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, and the date the 20-year-old was killed in Iraq by a roadside bomb, Aug. 2, 2006. "All gave some — He gave all," it says.

"She gave me this wristband, which I'm very grateful for," Obama told the Green Bay audience, halting and lowering his voice from his normally upbeat presentation. "I meet mothers and family members all over the country who are still mourning their children but are also thinking about the young men and women who are still over there and wondering when it will end."

Mrs. Jopek said she and her daughter briefly met the Illinois senator at the rally and showed him a picture of a smiling Ryan dressed for battle. She said the senator hugged her and her daughter, asked a couple questions about Ryan and told her how much he appreciated the bracelet.

"I wanted him to know my son's name for one thing, for when he's commander in chief," Mrs. Jopek said during a telephone interview in which she frequently grew emotional. She said she was somewhat uncomfortable getting so publicly involved in the war debate, but felt the issue was too important for her to remain silent during this campaign.

She said she's a Democrat who will vote for Obama in Wisconsin's primary Tuesday. Like Obama, she said she was against the war from the start and had a hard time watching her son go to war."

I have many many friends who sons and daughters are over there and have been back and forth 3 or 4 times....I live in San Diego so there are many military family's here. I don't know how they go on from day to day with them in such harms way.....We need to get them home.
 
[QUOTE="Got Disney";23249636]I have many many friends who sons and daughters are over there and have been back and forth 3 or 4 times....I live in San Diego so there are many military family's here. I don't know how they go on from day to day with them in such harms way.....We need to get them home.[/QUOTE]


That's what they signed up to do.
 
That's what they signed up to do.

Yes they did.....

-but they also signed up with the understanding that their Commander in Chief would not put them into harm's way unnecessarily or lie about the reasons why they were being put into harm's way unnecessarily, or be sent on a mission that did not have a clearly defined goal or exit strategy, or be required to involuntarily re-up for many rotations beyond what they had signed up for voluntarily, or not be fitted with the proper armor to protect themselves, or find their support services back in America slashed by a Republican congress, etc., etc. etc.

I hope the troops get home as safely and as quickly as humanly possible.

After all, Iraq is certainly not what they signed up for.
 
Our troops are a priceless resource for protection for ourselves and our allies. I hate the way they've been squandered in Iraq when the real fight has been in Afghanistan. And that one's not going so well lately.
 
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