The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[robinb]

I just heard on the radio that so many people here in Wisconsin were itching to vote that they tried to join everyone else in Super Tuesday. Our primary isn't for 2 more weeks .

 

[Crankyshank]

About the question regarding his health care proposal: To be honest with you, I am not sure how he intends to pay for it. I don't know if he's approached it or not, because I haven't looked all too closely at that topic.

 

[Honu]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23035237]Put the inspiration aside. Why is he reliable...what has he done to prove that to you? is using the correct word for Obama Lobbying when he is against Lobbyists and taking their money?

So if he says you must change your house all green you will do it, or if he says pay me this amount for health care, by the way how much is he wanting for health care premiums anyway ?) because he inspires you...

Again not meant in a mean way ... I want to try to see what you see and others that I don't???[/QUOTE]

He doesn't need to prove it to me. If he doesn't invoke the feeling in you, I'm not sure there is anything I could say that would change it. I hate to liken it to God, but it's a good analogy. I don't believe in God. People can wax on all day about how they feel about God, how great God is, but I just don't get it and I'm fine with that. To each their own.

As for answers on "how" with Obama, I've found the answers I'm comfortable with on his site. They are, of course, abbreviated explanations. If people want more in-depth answers, there is a place to ask questions on the site.

I do feel like there is extraordinary scrutiny on Obama with "how" and I'm not really seeing that level of scrutiny with the other candidates on their plans. How is Clinton going to pay for her healthcare plan?

 

[Crankyshank]

To be honest, I'd like to know how any politician (particularly the Presidential contenders) are planning on paying for the programs they tout as part of their agenda. Heck, I'd like to know how our current President is planning on funding the things he talked about in the SOTU.
The devil is in those details, and it's something that no matter how well planned it is, will be hacked to death in Congress no matter what

 

[wvrevy]

About the question regarding his health care proposal: To be honest with you, I am not sure how he intends to pay for it. I don't know if he's approached it or not, because I haven't looked all too closely at that topic.

He addressed it in the debate last week, head on. The majority of the plan would be paid for - and then some - by rolling back the tax cuts on the top 1% of wage earners. (ETA: Hillary would also use this to pay for her plan, but would depend on potential savings by moving to paperless medical records to fill in the rest, as hers is the more expensive plan...though I would fully expect Barack to utilize the same method to help raise funds for other projects if the idea is truly viable. I don't see him as being too proud to use an idea just because it wasn't he that came up with it.)

As for the question of "how much will it cost"...I don't think you really understand his plan. If you're happy with your current health coverage, then his plan won't cost you a penny, as nothing will change. He's targeting the millions that don't have coverage with his plan. It's really a fairly centrist idea to try to combine the best of universal healthcare and current free market plans. Again, this speaks to his willingness to lead rather than toe a party line (which is why he won't swear to the universal healthcare pledge that most other Dems adhere to). While I disagree slightly in that I think we should have national healthcare, I also see his point and am willing to follow his lead on this, since I think it addresses the biggest current need.

Any more detail, and I'll just refer you to his site. Does that answer the questions?

 

[chris1gill]

OK, I've had a glass of wine, so I'll keep this very brief. Obama did indicate in his last CNN debate how he would start to pay for the healthcare, and it was similar to what Hillary said. That it would come off the top 1% of wage earners, that had tax cuts under the Bush Tax plan, both want to roll that plan back for the top 1% and use that money, or some part thereof to pay for their healthcare.

I personally would like to see HOW Hillary will MANDATE that we pay for healthcare, particularly worrisome would be the parent who has to have their wages garnished to pay for this plan rather than put food on their table. I'm particularly worried about this. I'm not in this segment of the population, thankfully so, but I worry about the fate of them, as they directly relate to the rest of us in one way or another.....

So, to some extent both candidates have outlined a way to pay for their plans, particularly in the last debate.

 

[MerryPoppins]

You probably need to listen to a policy speech, and not to a "rally the troops" speech that is aimed at folks who have worked tirelessly before and all day through Super Tuesday.

I'd love to. So far I've never really heard him make a policy speech. Even in the debates he seemed to skirt the how-to part of his plan most of the time. (I will admit he did talk about his health plan and some about how he'd do it at the last debate, but he doesn't most of the time.)

Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT an Obama basher. I like the man. I love to hear him speak. He makes me feel like there's hope. I'll vote for him in November if he's the Democratic candidate. I'm just saying this is where I have an issue with him. I need to hear him say how he's going to do what he keeps saying he'll do when he's president. And obviously, others don't have this need. Good for them. I still can't help the way I feel.

I compared his stands on different issues with Hillary's. They actually seemed to pretty much balance out with my beliefs. I'd disagree with one of hers and agree with one of his and vice versa. So I finally decided I had to vote for her because I've heard her talk about how she can get things done. She doesn't make as good a speech, but I felt more comfortable.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I'd love to. So far I've never really heard him make a policy speech. Even in the debates he seemed to skirt the how-to part of his plan most of the time. (I will admit he did talk about his health plan and some about how he'd do it at the last debate, but he doesn't most of the time.)

Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT an Obama basher. I like the man. I love to hear him speak. He makes me feel like there's hope. I'll vote for him in November if he's the Democratic candidate. I'm just saying this is where I have an issue with him. I need to hear him say how he's going to do what he keeps saying he'll do when he's president. And obviously, others don't have this need. Good for them. I still can't help the way I feel.

I compared his stands on different issues with Hillary's. They actually seemed to pretty much balance out with my beliefs. I'd disagree with one of hers and agree with one of his and vice versa. So I finally decided I had to vote for her because I've heard her talk about how she can get things done. She doesn't make as good a speech, but I felt more comfortable.

But make no mistake she DOES still make a good speech, Barrack is just better, as Bill was better than Barrack but that is just public speaking...

I too am concerned with Obama backers who won't support Hillary as I don't think I've seen any Hillary supporters who won't back Obama. Dems need to stay united and I hope the campaign remains civil as dems have a nasty habit of snatching defeat from the hands of victory...And we sure don't need a clown like Huckabee (as McCain's possible VP) anywhere near the WH...

 

[wvrevy]

But make no mistake she DOES still make a good speech, Barrack is just better, as Bill was better than Barrack but that is just public speaking...

I too am concerned with Obama backers who won't support Hillary as I don't think I've seen any Hillary supporters who won't back Obama. Dems need to stay united and I hope the campaign remains civil as dems have a nasty habit of snatching defeat from the hands of victory...And we sure don't need a clown like Huckabee (as McCain's possible VP) anywhere near the WH...

Ah, but see...that's the problem. It's not the "Dems" that wouldn't support her. It's the independants and centrist Republicans that Barack has attracted.

I posted about this before, but I'll go through it again...in an Obama versus McCain scenario, the extreme right likely stays home, and Obama brings out the youth vote in record numbers to win easily. Seriously, I don't think it'd even be close, because the part of the Republican party that has become the "base" - The Joe Epcots and DawnCT's of the party, in other words" will stay home in droves rather than voting for McCain. The reality of electoral politics these days is that a Republican simply can not win without that group. It just can't happen.

Now, look at what happens if you put Hillary in there instead of Barack. Suddenly, the "base" on the right starts getting a facial tic as it looks like Hillary freaking Clinton could become the next president of the United States. They'll swallow their dislike of McCain if only so that they have the pleasure of coming out and voting against Hillary. On top of that, the youth that is so energized by Obama feels - yet again - as if they've got no real say, so they stay home in droves. Meanwhile, a large portion of the centrist voters also dislike the democratic choice, and when put against McCain and his record of reaching across the aisle, they decide he's the better choice to lead the country, even if his foreign policy stinks of the huge pile of Bush that it really is.

Again...those Dems - like me - aren't about to cross over to the dark side. We'll be there supporting Hillary...................right up until she loses in the general election. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

 

[chobie]

Wvrevy --

Sad, but true.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I see what you say but (1) does the energized "youth" vote ever really materialize? It's been courted and counted on before with less than stellar results, right?
(2) Will the right vote for McCain just out of spite, without a Huckabee VP?

Finally (3) What if Obama is on the ticket as VP? Will the droves of "energized" be stifled? Is it that fragile? If so see #1.

I don't know but I really think both will win easily, although I agree that at this point Obamas win looks easier.

 

[chris1gill]

Well, Obama has received 3 million dollars in donations today.... Just an FYI...

As for the person who asked if the students would come out? So far they have, for Obama, and in great numbers.....

wvrevy couldn't have outlined the scenario's better.....

 

[wvrevy]

I see what you say but (1) does the energized "youth" vote ever really materialize? It's been courted and counted on before with less than stellar results, right?
(2) Will the right vote for McCain just out of spite, without a Huckabee VP?

Finally (3) What if Obama is on the ticket as VP? Will the droves of "energized" be stifled? Is it that fragile? If so see #1.

I don't know but I really think both will win easily, although I agree that at this point Obamas win looks easier.

1 - It used to. They haven't really had anyone to turn out for in quite a while. Kerry couldn't inspire his way out of a paper bag.

2 - They'll hold their noses, but they'll vote for him because they see Hillary as the devil incarnate for some reason (honestly, I don't get it...you'd have to ask one of them...and do it in person 'cause they won't answer if you post. Trust me, I've tried). They don't want to vote for McCain, but they'll vote for him just like we'd have gone out to vote for a crash test dummy if it'd run against Bush the last time.

3 - If Hillary is at the top of the ticket...I honestly don't know. I think it'd hit the youth vote hardest, but I know a lot of people that would have no problem supporting her in that case, where they might not otherwise. It'd still be close, but it may be the only chance Hillary has of beating McCain in the general election.

JMHO...

 

[chris1gill]

1 - It used to. They haven't really had anyone to turn out for in quite a while. Kerry couldn't inspire his way out of a paper bag.

2 - They'll hold their noses, but they'll vote for him because they see Hillary as the devil incarnate for some reason (honestly, I don't get it...you'd have to ask one of them...and do it in person 'cause they won't answer if you post. Trust me, I've tried). They don't want to vote for McCain, but they'll vote for him just like we'd have gone out to vote for a crash test dummy if it'd run against Bush the last time.

3 - If Hillary is at the top of the ticket...I honestly don't know. I think it'd hit the youth vote hardest, but I know a lot of people that would have no problem supporting her in that case, where they might not otherwise. It'd still be close, but it may be the only chance Hillary has of beating McCain in the general election.

JMHO...

I can't see Obama taking a VP position under Hillary.... I think with Bill and Hillary running the white house, the position of VP will be largely ceremonial. I would hope he could make a contribution to society in some other way however.

 

["Got Disney"]

He doesn't need to prove it to me. If he doesn't invoke the feeling in you, I'm not sure there is anything I could say that would change it. I hate to liken it to God, but it's a good analogy. I don't believe in God. People can wax on all day about how they feel about God, how great God is, but I just don't get it and I'm fine with that. To each their own.

As for answers on "how" with Obama, I've found the answers I'm comfortable with on his site. They are, of course, abbreviated explanations. If people want more in-depth answers, there is a place to ask questions on the site.

I do feel like there is extraordinary scrutiny on Obama with "how" and I'm not really seeing that level of scrutiny with the other candidates on their plans. How is Clinton going to pay for her healthcare plan?

By the way about madating Obama does want to mandate parents to make them responsible for parents to cover there kids till age 25..he just does not agree that all should be made to pay only parents for there children..also if you dont pay and get sick you will be responsilbe to make up back premiums..


Hillarys plan to pay

Cap premiums (same as Obama)
Shared responability $198 a month(same as Obama)

She will first take the Bush tax cuts that are due to expire on people making over $250,000 a year which will raise 55 Billion dollars and put that into Subtadies and put it to take care of the tax credits

55 Billion obtained by moderinization of the current health plan(Watch video for all of them)

77 Billion saved by switching to using Electonic Records machines.....

this is to name a few...

http://www.youdecide2008.com/2008/02/01/video-cnn-democratic-debate-from-california-13108/

Go to the 2nd tape and continue to watch from the debate.....

 

[NewJersey]

Well, Obama has received 3 million dollars in donations today.... Just an FYI...

As for the person who asked if the students would come out? So far they have, for Obama, and in great numbers.....

wvrevy couldn't have outlined the scenario's better.....

I gave him $100 last night and just saw that email he sent so I'll give him another $100. I also plan on making phone calls to voters in WA tonight (did CA and CT last night) and then I'll be working hard this weekend to secure MD/VA/DC for him next Tuesday.

Hillary has used $5M of her own money today to fund her campaign and reports are there is $15M soon to follow that.

Hillary would be lucky to get this kind of grassroots support.

 

[NewJersey]

I can't see Obama taking a VP position under Hillary.... I think with Bill and Hillary running the white house, the position of VP will be largely ceremonial. I would hope he could make a contribution to society in some other way however.

thankfully we don't have to worry about that. I really think that Super Tuesday was Hillary's day to capture the nomination like her campaign staff said she would 1.5 months ago.

The longer this thing goes on, the better it is for Obama, the challenger.

 

[NewJersey]

Well, Obama has received 3 million dollars in donations today.... Just an FYI...

As for the person who asked if the students would come out? So far they have, for Obama, and in great numbers.....

wvrevy couldn't have outlined the scenario's better.....

Oh and FYI, that's a running total of how much he raised today. We are up to $4 million!!!!

 

[eclectics]

I see what you say but (1) does the energized "youth" vote ever really materialize?

If the primaries are any indication, this time, yes they will.

 

[NewJersey]

If the primaries are any indication, this time, yes they will.

Yeah, I thought that we saw for the first time it has materialized, this year for obama.